Reconciling Northern Myths: Last Hero is Night's King

[Lord Martin]

We do kind of know how the LH story ended.

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

So if the LH did form an alliance with the Others then the CotF were intermediaries, unless the whole LH story is lies. Bran has followed a similar path to the LH so far, are the CotF going to give him over to the Others?

I wonder if that's the story the LH told to hide the shame that he sacrificed his son to the Others to survive. Such a blasphemy would not go over well. In other words, its a very old cover story for what really happened.

[Dr. Qyburn]

I'm bumping the threat because of last night's episode.

I don't love mixing book cannon and show cannon, but I expect some renewed interest in this and other related topics.

I noticed something in that last scene of S04E04 that I found interesting

The number of shadowy figures that were standing beyond the altar including the Other King was 13

[Ygrain]

Wow, how did I miss this? A pretty awesome theory!

Could someone spoil the episode for me? Thanks!

[butterbumps!]

Conventional wisdom has it that the COTF saved the Last Hero and helped fight off The Others leading to the establishment of the North as we know it. With GRRM conventional wisdom is seldom correct.

But if the COTF didn't save the LH, then what happened? How did he survive? Has anyone else ever been able to ward off the Others or find a way to co-exist with them? Craster, that incestuous bastard found a way, as we know, he sacrifices his sons to the Others.

I theorize that the Last Hero did the same thing. He pleaded for his life promising the Others whatever they wanted which in this case, was his sons. And so the Others marked the LH as they marked Craster, those with great sense can smell the mark of the Others and it smells cold.

The Last Hero then went back to the kingdoms of men raising up more men for the Night's Watch claiming that he had the ability to resist the Others. He fathered children and stealthily sacrificed them to the Others which brings him squarely in line with the tale of Night's King:

Would an adjacent point to this theory be that perhaps the Watch vows are much more literal than we might have thought?

I mean, if the LH is the founder of the Watch and the NK, and it goes as you say, were the vows created in response to that as a very literal measure against the Others? I'm mostly referring to I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. In other words, is an adjacent point that these vows were originally mandated so that the men of this organization weren't having children to sacrifice for power or something, and became understood much differently over time?

[Mithras]

No I don't think so. I think the LH was the first person among the humans to have the ability of skinchanging and perhaps he was the ancestor of all the skinchangers. The CotF opened his third-eye. This was their magic he was seeking and finally granted. He used his ability to tame a wild dragon and he led the men to victory. This union (man-dragon) in time was deformed into the legend of Lightbringer. Actual Lightbringer was not a sword, it was the union between a man and dragon.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

Well since HBO actually leaked out that the white walker who touched the baby was the Night's King it answers some things.

Because of that this thread genuinely has a chance of landing the mark and being real.

Even more interesting is in the episode the when the night's king was walking to the child they were 12 men, 6 each side standing next to him. They could be all 12 LC's or the companions or both!

[Lord Martin]

Would an adjacent point to this theory be that perhaps the Watch vows are much more literal than we might have thought?

I mean, if the LH is the founder of the Watch and the NK, and it goes as you say, were the vows created in response to that as a very literal measure against the Others? I'm mostly referring to I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. In other words, is an adjacent point that these vows were originally mandated so that the men of this organization weren't having children to sacrifice for power or something, and became understood much differently over time?

In short, yes, absolutely.

I think I'm missing a few key pieces however. I think there are several origin myths combined in here. The start of the Night's Watch and House Stark. I could see it overlapping with your "Blood from a Bolton" thread at some point as well. With the right combination of fathers, sons, twins, bastards and the like I'm sure it can all fit. I just haven't been able to unlock the logic puzzle yet!

[unSonofStannis]

Run it by the heretics and see what they think, theyre the experts.

[butterbumps!]

In short, yes, absolutely.

I think I'm missing a few key pieces however. I think there are several origin myths combined in here. The start of the Night's Watch and House Stark. I could see it overlapping with your "Blood from a Bolton" thread at some point as well. With the right combination of fathers, sons, twins, bastards and the like I'm sure it can all fit. I just haven't been able to unlock the logic puzzle yet!

Oh, I don't think our theories are in conflict at all-- and even if they were I still entertain other possibilities lol. With a bit of overlap/ mild conflicts, I think this explains the pre-NK story in more focus, while mine branches off more on the aftermath--we both posited a Stark as the NK, but I posited the Boltons might be a product of their union rather than the Starks; it could be that both are true. I mean, if there's something really weird with 2 branches of descendants from this same ancestor, each with different sets of magical ability (Starks are wargs, Boltons are god knows what), it could maybe start explaining some of the more recent history. Like, for example, why the hell the Starks haven't completely eradicated the Boltons root and stem for all those times they've risen up and/ or worn the skins of the Starks. My thought has been that the Boltons possess some sort of power/ weapon/ whatever that if threatened with extinction, they'd deploy to ensure mutual destruction or something (because nothing else really makes all that much sense!).

Oh, ETA: what do you think of the myth about Symeon Star Eyes in relation to all this?

[oursisthefury69]

This thread is looking to be right on the money as of last night.

Another point; I think a lot of people know the parallels between the story of the Last Hero and Bran. (there was a good thread on it a while back) The Last Hero also set out with 12 companions, eerily similar to the Nights Kings 12 predecessors at Lord Commander. Old Nan also implies to Bran that the Nights King was both a Stark, and possibly even a Brandon Stark

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

Fantastic read! :) Good job. Dunno how people do this; it's absolutely amazing!

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

Reading the OP after last night's episode, its like ... wow. I hope they are getting these details from George.

[AlienTwo]

I'm bumping the threat because of last night's episode.

I don't love mixing book cannon and show cannon, but I expect some renewed interest in this and other related topics.

I agree, but especially with the HBO goof in calling that different White Walker (the one with the darth maul head) the Night's King, it really is starting to make this *awesome* theory (Good.... no, excellent work Lord Martin)make sense... as we know GRRM has let the showrunners in on the grand plan... just "in case".

[Senatus]

Longtime lurker making his first post here, bear with me :)

I read this topic long ago, and today I saw this week's episode (Oathkeeper). Don't worry, I'm not part of the Unsullied, I read all the books several times ;)

Now anyway, this is going to be very far-fetched, but the end to that episode very much reminded me of this thread.

We are told that Knight's King was the 13th LC of the NW. We are also told that the Last Hero set out with 12 companions, thus making him the 13th member of his party. I have a very hard time believing that this is a coincidence. But is there a way to reconcile the tales?

If the Last Hero and Night's King are the same people, it implies that the 13 companions that set out to find the COTF were the original Night's Watch. Which got me thinking, which is older, the Wall or the Night's Watch? I would have to think the Watch is older simply because it makes more sense to have an army first then build a wall.

Did anyone notice there were 13 "Others" standing there? Seems like a bit too much of a coincidence to me, considering the references we've had to 13 so far.

Edit: Just noticed someone else has noticed this before me as well. And my god, do I need to change my avatar.

[AlienTwo]

Longtime lurker making his first post here, bear with me :)

I read this topic long ago, and today I saw this week's episode (Oathkeeper). Don't worry, I'm not part of the Unsullied, I read all the books several times ;)

Now anyway, this is going to be very far-fetched, but the end to that episode very much reminded me of this thread.

Did anyone notice there were 13 "Others" standing there? Seems like a bit too much of a coincidence to me, considering the references we've had to 13 so far.

Edit: Just noticed someone else has noticed this before me as well. And my god, do I need to change my avatar.

I did and I have heard a number of other people discussing this point. I think that is a very significant fact and points directly to some validity in the LC/NK stories. I think it will be very telling what the showrunners choose to show regarding White Walker activity.

[Hrafntýr]

Terrific OP. Really, so sensitive to a number of motifs central to the mythology of the north, like that of the tragic father-son opposition, always-a-Stark-in-Winterfell, and possibly the stolen bride motif (though I believe the OP figures the Night's King-"Corpse Queen" union as a marriage alliance; I'd note, though, that Old Nan's version of the tale has him seeing her then chasing her and capturing her, which might allow for alternate views of the Night's King-WW relationship).

Would an adjacent point to this theory be that perhaps the Watch vows are much more literal than we might have thought?

I mean, if the LH is the founder of the Watch and the NK, and it goes as you say, were the vows created in response to that as a very literal measure against the Others? I'm mostly referring to I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. In other words, is an adjacent point that these vows were originally mandated so that the men of this organization weren't having children to sacrifice for power or something, and became understood much differently over time?

This is just brilliant. Wow.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I like this theory, cause I have trouble believing in the theory that the children joined with the men to defeat the others.

Also I wanted to see your opinion of this quote from old nan's story

Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.

I have argued before that the CotF "watching" and not helping the First Men as they were being destroyed is a sign that they weren't necessarily "allies" and probably if they even became allies they needed something in return before they helped man.

What do you think?

[AlienTwo]

I like this theory, cause I have trouble believing in the theory that the children joined with the men to defeat the others.

Also I wanted to see your opinion of this quote from old nan's story

Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch.

I have argued before that the CotF "watching" and not helping the First Men as they were being destroyed is a sign that they weren't necessarily "allies" and probably if they even became allies they needed something in return before they helped man.

What do you think?

Agreed, this is a good addition. It makes more sense especially as they had fought a rather brutal war previously, the CotF probably wouldn't want to jump in and help the First Men without enough benefit to their own well-being.

[Lord Martin]

Oh, I don't think our theories are in conflict at all-- and even if they were I still entertain other possibilities lol. With a bit of overlap/ mild conflicts, I think this explains the pre-NK story in more focus, while mine branches off more on the aftermath--we both posited a Stark as the NK, but I posited the Boltons might be a product of their union rather than the Starks; it could be that both are true. I mean, if there's something really weird with 2 branches of descendants from this same ancestor, each with different sets of magical ability (Starks are wargs, Boltons are god knows what), it could maybe start explaining some of the more recent history. Like, for example, why the hell the Starks haven't completely eradicated the Boltons root and stem for all those times they've risen up and/ or worn the skins of the Starks. My thought has been that the Boltons possess some sort of power/ weapon/ whatever that if threatened with extinction, they'd deploy to ensure mutual destruction or something (because nothing else really makes all that much sense!).

Oh, ETA: what do you think of the myth about Symeon Star Eyes in relation to all this?

Symeon Star Eyes eh? Truthfully, I think he never existed, a knight in the north during the age of heroes? I think the Sapphire code got us again!

As for the Bolton branching, I could see it much like the Lancastrian's branching off from the Plantagenets with Edward II and Edmund of Lancaster butting heads.

If I had to flesh it out, I could see it working like this:

The Last Hero and his band go to fight the Others, they get decimated leaving him as the last man standing, 13th commander of a one man army. He makes a pact with the Others to give them his sons. Of course this assumes he has a wife, so assume that he has a human wife. The Others agree, leaving the humans in peace.

This gives the Last Hero prestige and the humans acclaim him King in the North for his great "victory" over the Others. There is a demand to start the Wall to protect against the Others, so the LH begins that construction project. He would have been present for the start of the project and would have needed a place to live, so the Nightfort began around the same time as the Wall. That would explain why the black gate is there. It conveniently gives him access to continue his sacrificing beyond the Wall.

Now, the LH is sacrificing all his sons, so he's got an inheritance problem. In order to have an heir, he has to break the agreement with the Others. This would case all sorts of havoc. I also imagine his wife would start to ask why all the sons are dying, so she needs to be removed from the picture as well.

Perhaps this is where the Children of the Forrest truly fit into the myth. They didn't save the Last Hero from the Others, they saved his line by providing him with a COTF bride. Their son, who the LH refuses to sacrifice is Brandon the Builder, scion of House Stark. His warg powers come from being half COTF and explains Stark warning going forward. In this way House Stark is like House Plantagenet in that Geoffery, Count of Anjou is the real founder, but Henry II gets the credit as the first Plantagenet King.

The LH starts the construction of Winterfell over some hot springs so that his family will be protected from the Others. If he had a brother, he may have named him Castellan or some sort of Regent while his son, Brandon comes of age.

Now that he has an heir a castle for him and has broken his truce with the Others, the LH re-forms the Night's Watch with him as 13th LC and all the Lords send men to him. They operate out of the night fort where he has been building his wall. So the LH sets aside his second bride for the Watch.

Of course, he has to pay the price for betraying the Others, so they ensnare him with a woman, his Other bride and manipulate him and his men, the Night's Watch as was cited in the Myth of Night's King.

So the Starks of Winterfell have to rise against him. If the LH did have a Castellan brother at Winterfell, that could explain why the myth says the NK was killed by his brother, the ruling Stark in Winterfell at the time.

Perhaps there was some inter cine war between Brandon the Builder and his uncle, maybe it was a smooth transition to his rule. Maybe that Uncle went on to start House Bolton, jealous of his nephews warging abilities bestowed by his COTF mother? Start of the flaying custom? Or maybe the LH and his Other bride had a son that got away to start his own house in opposition to his half brother's house?

Any chance this hits closer to the mark?

[AlienTwo]

I like what you have said, what you were able to put very eloquently down, but I prefer the version presented by OP, i think it fits a little bit better.