Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Red Raven]

The High Septon is a torture-happy world-class jerk. I'd hate to think that Howland Reed is such a horrible person.

[Roadside Rose]

Here is the original post

[MyLittleFinger]

The new High Septon is keeping the Seven Gods in a radically different manner.

Cersei wonders: "Are you a priest or a greengrocer?"

Yes, he actually follows their freaking book unlike the others. There is nothing more insane and dangerous than a literalistic religious zealot. He wants to bring bread to the Mother's children and the sword to the Warrior's enemies...and he picks which is which.

[SpringKing]

The High Septon is a torture-happy world-class jerk. I'd hate to think that Howland Reed is such a horrible person.

So far we've only seen the HS torturing one bad guy (Osney Kettleblack) guilty of high treason and conspiracy to commit murder (Jon). In Westeros, thats a pretty good track record. If you want to consider Cersei's 'walk of shame' as torture - its an even better track record.

Yes, he actually follows their freaking book unlike the others. There is nothing more insane and dangerous than a literalistic religious zealot. He wants to bring bread to the Mother's children and the sword to the Warrior's enemies...and he picks which is which.

Hard to say how literalistic the HS is since we dont know much about the Seven Pointed Star. He does appear to be a religious zealot for the welfare of the small folk which is arguably a good thing in the murky moral climate surrounding the ruling class as it plays the game of thrones . What is startling is the resemblance of the new HS to the current pope who is changing the focus of the Roman Catholic church from gilded sinecures back to support for the weak and poor. Among some secular political quarters that is seen as insanely dangerous.

[Red Raven]

The HS has a rotten opinion of women, at least as bad as Randyll Tarly's. I'd hate to think of Meera, who is a fine hunter and capable with weapons, having to grow up with a father who would think so lowly of her and her mother.

Nope, not buying HR = HS.

[Sarah Lannister]

:shocked:

[Eira Seren]

The HS has a rotten opinion of women, at least as bad as Randyll Tarly's. I'd hate to think of Meera, who is a fine hunter and capable with weapons, having to grow up with a father who would think so lowly of her and her mother.

Nope, not buying HR = HS.

I was going to say I could see him being the Brother from the Quiet Isle, but after you mentioned this, I don't think so. Or Howland Reed.

[Laniki]

This is the reason I enjoy coming to this forum; just like the R+L=J theory, the GNC theory, and so many others; Roadsiderose opened my eyes a bit more to how this epic story is weaved. Whether or not this theory that Howland is the High Sparrow is in fact true makes little difference to me. What does make this theory exiting is that it is believable and could not only play out but could be one of the most instrumental plots in this series of novels.

[George Sapp]

Great theory. To those saying HR believes in the Olds and can't be the HS...you ever heard of pretending. Jon Snow was a Night's Watchmen. He did a good job of of pretending to be different once to.

[TallTyrion]

Would be cool if true. However, the Reed's keeping the old good's and the isolation of Grey Water Watch makes it seem to unlikely.

How would Howland Reed, a guy who spent his life worshiping the old gods, be adept enough at preaching about The Seven to get that much support? The sparrows occurred organically out of the horrors of the war in the riverlands and elsewhere. So its not like he could of had the time to hire a septa to teach him in preparation for this.

Furthermore, the Cragonmen have one of the most isolated cultures in westeros, I don't think that could translate into being a populist leader easily.

[Laniki]

Would be cool if true. However, the Reed's keeping the old good's and the isolation of Grey Water Watch makes it seem to unlikely.

How would Howland Reed, a guy who spent his life worshiping the old gods, be adept enough at preaching about The Seven to get that much support? The sparrows occurred organically out of the horrors of the war in the riverlands and elsewhere. So its not like he could of had the time to hire a septa to teach him in preparation for this.

Furthermore, the Cragonmen have one of the most isolated cultures in westeros, I don't think that could translate into being a populist leader easily.

I agree that Greywater is isolated and that the Wiki says that Howland Reed hasn't stepped outside the Neck since he came back from Robert's Rebellion. Worshipping the Old Gods is an argument that disqualifies him for many that he could be the High Sparrow. I kind if think that those points could actually qualify him for playing the part.

If he is a devout practitioner of the Old Gods, then he may be more pious than perhaps the Greatjon would. Greywater is closer to Riverrun and Harrenhall than it is to Winterfell and much closer to the Twins. Winterfell had a sept and there was Septa Mordane and Septon Chayle that cared for it and taught the children. It's possible that Howland allowed the Faith to be practiced in the Neck and that there may have been a septon at Greywater. Personally, I have many good friends that have different faiths than myself and some of them think that I follow their faith. If Howland was traveling around doing basic traditional duties like marriages and death rituals then he may be familiar enough with them to be believable.

The isolation of Greywater and that Howland hasn't left it for 15 or 16 years gives him cover. The fact he hasn't been seen and the changes in his appearance due to age make him unrecognizable. Most of those that would recognize him at Harrenhall tourney have either been killed or weren't there. As Lord of Greywater, he can handpick men that he knows will keep his identity secret as they follow him throughout the Riverlands into King's Landing. If House Stark could raise 18,000 men from Winterfell in the war against the Lannister's, it's possible that Howland may have as many as 5,000 men available at Greywater.

The HS is able to strategically maneuver his position to infiltrate and establish himself as the High Septon. In his discussions with Cersei, he's able to negotiate with her to legally establish his own army. When he hears Oswell's story, he recognizes the inconsistency and seeks out what is the truth. Once he knows Cersei's transgressions, he isolates her until she is able to own up to them. He sets a penance for the minor transgression with a similar punishment that was made famous by her father. Finding that the accusations against Margeary are weak, he issues no penance for her. It appears that he has a sense of justice and his punishment is consistent with the crime. He reminds me of a more forgiving Tywin and is nothing like any of his predecessors.

[Lady Woodland]

This is a really good theory, despite other posters opinions on him being of the 'old gods' that could easily be a diversion & the OP & a good many of the other posters have already made some really good arguments.

I just wanted to add one more thing, a reference to a recent theory I read by a fellow member "eggshelljoe" long but worth a read especially part 1. He proposes that RT is MR theory but he also expands further by exploring the events that went down at the ToJ (keeping in mind Ned, his retainers including HR should never have won by the general consensus of most folk of Weseros) This OP, cut down to bare bones is that – Ned actually lost the battle!!!, but Sir Arthur Dayne loses half his hand in the fighting he decides to take the Black & becomes QH & goes to the wall. But the kicker – I love this, Sir Oswell Whent becomes Oswell Kettleback. (This might explain the High Septon (HR) torture of him in the context of this post)

Here’s an excerpt from eggshelljoe’s theory: - apologies to Joe I can't make the link work, but a search of this member's name will help you find the link to the post, unfortunately for the forum Joe is not a prolific poster but this is a blockbuster.

"Ser Oswell, a good man and true, cannot agree to take the black and accuses Ser Arthur of doing the one thing the Kingsguard must not, giving up the safety of the only assuredly living king, Jon Snow. Ser Oswell instead adopts the name of Oswell Kettleblack to embrace his shame and flees to the Vale. He eventually joins the service of Petyr Baelish and his sons serve on Cercei’s Kingsguard and as bodyguards. Is this too much of a stretch?.. guy with the same first name who was on the Kingsguard himself, didn’t die, fled and had sons who through connections and some prowess get on the Kingsguard too. Maybe but I like it and the Kettleblacks are a little mysterious."

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100899-the-last-of-the-dragons-mance-is-rhaegar/?

[Sullen]

The HS has a rotten opinion of women, at least as bad as Randyll Tarly's. I'd hate to think of Meera, who is a fine hunter and capable with weapons, having to grow up with a father who would think so lowly of her and her mother.

Nope, not buying HR = HS.

But he lets smallfolk women arm themselves and serve important functions among the Most Devout, despite what he claims and his negative remarks, he seems to be rather progressive in that area.

And I'd hate for that theory to be true, it destroys the whole point of the character.

[Faydra]

Well, it's past time they get involved in the war. Maybe he truly is one of the crannogmen, not Howland though. He seemed different to me.

[unSonofStannis]

This theory makes complete sense to me, it would be a very good way for Howland Reed to reveal to Jon his true parentage by crowning him when he gets to KL.

[Bael's Bastard]

Whether or not pretending to be a follower of the Seven is something Howland might do, my biggest problem with the theory is it doesn't make any sense. Getting the Seven's Crusaders legalized and using and manipulating them only to reveal they've been duped by an Old Gods believer working to put Ned's Old Gods believing bastard on the throne? Would they care if he claimed it was some kid of Rhaegar's they never knew about? If he is gonna piss off the believers in the Seven, better not to get their zealot army legalized before you do it. And why start a conflict between religions when they currently coexist relatively peacefully?

[unSonofStannis]

Whether or not pretending to be a follower of the Seven is something Howland might do, my biggest problem with the theory is it doesn't make any sense. Getting the Seven's Crusaders legalized and using and manipulating them only to reveal they've been duped by an Old Gods believer working to put Ned's Old Gods believing bastard on the throne? Would they care if he claimed it was some kid of Rhaegar's they never knew about? If he is gonna piss off the believers in the Seven, better not to get their zealot army legalized before you do it. And why start a conflict between religions when they currently coexist relatively peacefully?

Realistically how big can this "zealot" army be? As far as I can tell they got a few hundred knights and peasant refugees from the Riverlands.

[OnlyOne]

Very interesting theory. I think it may be a bit of a stretch, but Reed will avenge The Starks in some way.

[Hippocras]

I hate this theory, I have to say. And it seems to be based on nothing other than the High Sparrow being small.

But, points against this theory:

1. Howland Reed is a crannogman, and is culturally fairly close to the CotF. As a young man when he decided he wanted to explore the world, where did he go? The Isle of Faces! He went to visit the weirwoods. So this is a man of the Old Gods, not a zealot of the Seven. Nothing Andal about him.

2. His children Meera and Jojen have fairly striking green eyes. The High Sparrow's eyes were described as "hard" but the colour was not given. But since his eyes were actually somewhat described, if they were green and it would later be revealed he was Howland, it probably would have been mentioned at the same time as the hardness.

3. The High Sparrow is elderly. Howland Reed is younger than Ned, so mid thirties. Hardly old enough to have gone completely grey with a heavily lined face.

This theory needs to be put to rest. A better candidate: Leyton Hightower. At least HE is the right age and the right religion.

[Ser Eric]

1. Seeing as the theory states he is pretending, that's a non issue.

2. Jojen's eyes turned green. Were they naturally green? Don't think so.