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The maesters chain


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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But even a person who is good in learning would need to possess actual knowledge, I think. Knowledge he could only get in the Citadel, where there are men to teach him such things, and books which he can use to study from some more.

Yes, I think my answer allowed for that, as I mentioned that you would certainly need some links, but not necessarily some exact count of links, and the way to get links is to master the knowledge. And the place to go to master knowledge is the Citadel.

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  • 2 months later...

To share new found info :)


I'll put this in spoiler tags, it's about the preview found on Edelweiss from the World of Ice and Fire:



The maester who wrote the history book completed his chain in a little over 7 years time (having been born in 272AC, having forged his first link in 285AC, and having finished his studies in 292AC).



With the established maximum of 3 links earned a year, this guy seems to have thus gotten 21 links maximally by the time his studies were done.


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Hmm I think you left an important part out of the quotes in the OP.




The maester pushed himself ponderously to his feet, his chain of office clinking softly. It was a heavy thing, a dozen maester’s collars threaded around and through each other and ornamented with gemstones. And it seemed to Tyrion that the gold and silver and platinum links far outnumbered those of baser metals.


The whole chain Pycelle has seems to refer to that of the Grand maester. I don't think we can draw much conclusions of the chain(s) Pycelle has on how long and what he studied.


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Hmm I think you left an important part out of the quotes in the OP.

The whole chain Pycelle has seems to refer to that of the Grand maester. I don't think we can draw much conclusions of the chain(s) Pycelle has on how long and what he studied.

Interesting. But at one point, Pycelle's links are mentioned. So wouldn't it make sense that those links that are specifically identified are of his actual maesters chain, and the chains containing gemstones and such ornaments, like the chain of office you mentioned, are to show his position?

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Interesting. But at one point, Pycelle's links are mentioned. So wouldn't it make sense that those links that are specifically identified are of his actual maesters chain, and the chains containing gemstones and such ornaments, like the chain of office you mentioned, are to show his position?

Yeah, that would be a pretty logical way of looking at it, though of course we can't be sure. We hardly know what kind of a chain by composition the Grand Maester's one is in the end.

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  • 1 month later...

I have a thought (it's unsupported since we have little info) but maybe graduating isn't about the amount of links but the amount of specialties. You might be able to become a maester by mastering a minimum amount of subjects ( mastering a subject more than once counts as mastering a different subject). I'm sure this doesn't help you on your quest (sorry!) it's just a thought I had while reading your OP and figured I should share it.


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Well, it kind of changes my question only a little. Because then it becomes "how many subjects should you have passed in order to call yourself a maester, minimally?"

What you totally makes sense.

Yeah I figured I wasn't really helping with your answer but I thought it was interesting

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Somehow six or its multiples (dozen, two dozen) are the numbers most frequently come up when referring to maester links. So I have a very subjective opinion that after six links, you need to decide if you want to take the 'final exam' and vows or leave the Citadel. OK, maybe not the final vows but some kind of dedication-vows that you will stay and finish your studies...

Oberyn grew bored after 6 links and

Lord Lyonel Strong also earned 6 links of his chain

"before deciding that a maester’s life was not for him"


So, either both of them got bored after six links, or it was the limit and they were not allowed to study further because they did not want to became maesters.

However, this info from the Old Bear seems to discard it a bit:

“Eighty years or close enough,” the Old Bear said, “and no, I still hadn’t been born, though Aemon had forged half a dozen links of his maester’s chain by then. Aerys wed his own sister, as the Targaryens were wont to do, and reigned for ten or twelve years. Aemon took his vows and left the Citadel to serve at some lordling’s court...

So, either Aemon took his vows after his sixth link or he studied another 10-12 years and then he took his vows.

But if so, Sarella will leave the Citadel next year (because she must stop her studies after the sixth link)

edit: typos

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Somehow six or its multiples (dozen, two dozen) are the numbers most frequently come up when referring to maester links. So I have a very subjective opinion that after six links, you need to decide if you want to take the 'final exam' and vows or leave the Citadel. OK, maybe not the final vows but some kind of dedication-vows that you will stay and finish your studies...

Oberyn grew bored after 6 links and

Lord Lyonel Strong also earned 6 links of his chain

"before deciding that a maester’s life was not for him"

So, either both of them got bored after six links, or it was the limit and they were not allowed to study further because they did not want to became maesters.

However, this info from the Old Bear seems to discard it a bit:

“Eighty years or close enough,” the Old Bear said, “and no, I still hadn’t been born, though Aemon had forged half a dozen links of his maester’s chain by then. Aerys wed his own sister, as the Targaryens were wont to do, and reigned for ten or twelve years. Aemon took his vows and left the Citadel to serve at some lordling’s court...

So, either Aemon took his vows after his sixth link or he studied another 10-12 years and then he took his vows.

But if so, Sarella will leave the Citadel next year (because she must stop her studies after the sixth link)

edit: typos

The Old Bear is telling us that by the time Baelor Breakspear died, Aemon had forged 6 links already. After that, Aerys reigned for 12 years (though Jeor isn't sure anymore and says "10 or 12"), and Aemon took his vows and left the Citadel. We know Aemon left when he was 19 years old, and thus completed his studies in 217AC (he was born in 198AC), so somewhere in the middle of the reign of Aerys.

But yeah, it's becoming a bit suspicious that several people dropped out after 6 links specifically.. There might be something there indeed.

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Interesting.



Maester Luwin's is referred to as having a "simple choker". A choker is tight around the neck so about 12-14 inches (yes, i just measured my own neck).



We would need to know the size of the links to make a reasonable guess, but if the links were each half an inch (actually a little longer as they overlap, but let's call it a half of inch for each link), this would be about 25 links. If the links were an inch, then it would be about 13 links. If the links are two inches we have about 7.


(Of course we could make the links even smaller to get a number like 50, but I'm going to discount that based on the 1-3 links a year)



The other thing I would go with is the time. They say people can enter as young as 9 or 10 and earn as many 3 links a year. So an exceptional student who starts young can get 30 links by the time they are 20.



But a standard student who starts at 12 would get 8 links by the time that they are 20. And getting links at one per year seems to put you on track to be a Maester. In Westeros in general, people start working when they are younger, so I would guess that a Maester would ready to go at 20 (maybe 25). So at one chain per year, starting at 13 and a maximum age of 25, we have a dozen links.



One other timing issue. Jon sends Sam away to become a Maester and then to come back. It reads like a more temporary arrangement. It doesn't sound like he is sending Sam away for a decade or more.



So let's say that Sam is smart and can learn at 2-3 chains per years (2.5). And that when he was sent away GRRM meant to keep the original timeline of a 5 year gap. So Sam can return in 5 years and 12-13 links?



Or GRRM didn't mean to keep the gap and this was a short term 2 year time frame so maybe 6 links (plus vows-as asuugested above).


(Either way, I think Jon should really get another Maester while waiting for Sam.)



One more piece of info we could use. One of the Freys is a maester and his age would be known from the family tree.



From all the information here and in the previous posts, a chain is about 6-30 links. The number that comes up most often is 12, so I'll suggest that you need a minimum of 12 links to form a maester chain. But you can chose to add more before you leave.


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Maester Luwin's is referred to as having a "simple choker". A choker is tight around the neck so about 12-14 inches (yes, i just measured my own neck).

Loving the dedication! :D

But I've taken a look at the Frey family tree and the maesters that family has given us :)

We've got Maester Willamen, who was born in or between 272AC and 280AC. (and is now thus between the ages of 20 and 28)

We've also got Robert Frey (son of Raymund), was born in 283AC, and is currently training at the Citadel. He had forged 2 links by early 300AC.

Taking a look at the other students at the Citadel:

  • Armen, with 4 links, in 4 years

Alleras, with 3 links, in 1 year

Pate had arrived when he was 13 years old, but still had no links 5 years later

Lorcas, with 9 links, in 50 years

There's also Pylos, who had arrived at Dragonstone in 298AC, and who had been 24 years old by then. There's no indication on how old he was when he had started his studies.

And there's Kerwin, who at the age of 22 had already been in service at a castle by the time he got taken by House Greyjoy.

I'm not sure what Lorcas means here. 9 links is higher than the minimum we previously had found, but he's still not a maester, though he still works at the Citadel. What does it mean?

It is true that the average student earns 1 link a year, and they do seem to be done with their studies (also, on average) by roughly the age of 25 at the latest. So if students arrive around 13 years old on average as well, than about 12 links might be (roughly at the moment) the minimum? (with your inch per link, Dire Dragon :p ).

That might explain why several people dropped out at 6 links (halfway through you evaluate your process), and why Lorcas with his 9 links still hasn't made it to maester..

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I'm not sure what Lorcas means here. 9 links is higher than the minimum we previously had found, but he's still not a maester, though he still works at the Citadel. What does it mean?

It is true that the average student earns 1 link a year, and they do seem to be done with their studies (also, on average) by roughly the age of 25 at the latest. So if students arrive around 13 years old on average as well, than about 12 links might be (roughly at the moment) the minimum? (with your inch per link, Dire Dragon :P ).

That might explain why several people dropped out at 6 links (halfway through you evaluate your process), and why Lorcas with his 9 links still hasn't made it to maester..

Yes, 12 links seems a good guess! Maybe Lorcas' job at the Citadel supports that after 6 links you became somehow officially associated to the Citadel but not yet as a maester (you need to continue your studies till 12), but after 6 links, no free education...

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I really don't think one can say -- three links a year; and take that as a max. or average for gifted students.... the way I understand it; earning a link is a private sort of study.... the students set their own pace -- not the maesters teaching them. Thus, for example knowing Oberyn Martell; his studies of poisons might have gone exceedingly well; motivated by personal interest. He might have earned his link very quickly, in a matter of months.... other fields; he might not have invested that much time and energy in.



In any case; the point is that one is more diligent with their studies, if these studies are interesting, or "fun" to the student. Some links would be easier to earn, or take less time than others... either because the expectations are set lower; the field is generally easier; or because of the student's own inclination...



I don't think there'd be a set "order" for earning links either -- someone like Oberyn (or Alleras) might have picked the "interesting" fields to study first; rather that the core ones of the maester "training".... by someone like Oberyn I mean mostly – someone who wasn’t very serious about becoming a maester, but mostly studied at the citadel out of curiosity.



....I think there's a certain amount of links that need to be forged; fields of studies that need to have been studied; but that one can study them at their own pace and leisure; whenever they feel like it....I also think that a student could study as many other non compulsory fields of study as they want.... That means a student could earn 20 links, for ex. have spend 15 years at the citadel; but still not be a maester if the "compulsory" fields of study had not been studied and the "basic maester links" not earned...>> imo; there's a "core" study and "optional studies" and imo also, someone like Oberyn who got "bored" actually studied mostly just optional fields; without partaking in core maester studies much....



(Hence, imo, it is impossible to conclude that six links are insufficient; and that one cannot be a maester with six links for ex. as long as these links count among the "core" disciplines that a maester must eventually learn....)



Also...wouldn't a student be required to take vows in order to become a maester? a westerosi version of the Hippocratic oath; or the physician's oath...in that case; it wouldn't even be a matter of how many links one earns; but of saying the proper words and being recognized officially as a “maester” in some sort of ceremony.



In any case; I expect we will learn more about it through Sam.


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I don't think it makes much sense for there not to be certain essential courses (i.e. accounting, raven craft, healing, reading and writing, etc) that a link must be earned in for an acolyte to qualify for graduation. What is the point of having a maester in the first place if they can't do these things? The other links (valyrian steel etc) then would more or less be window dressing, aiming for a station with a more prestigious house.


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