Jon Snow vs Loras Tyrell

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

Who would win in a fight between these two? Some say Jon is a prodigy and Loras is an arrogant greent knight of summer. Others also say that Jon has not had a real fight and Loras has. Personally I think Jon would smash Loras with a sword and here's why.

• Has a valyrian sword
  
• Is somewhat battle hardened. Killed the Halfhand (although it was Ghost who helped and it was set up) but nonetheless got to spar with the best swordsman from the Night's Watch
  
• Always practices his swordplay and spars against Iron Emmett who is one of the best too. Kicks his ass when he goes berzerk and spars against two or more people at a time (reminds me of Garlan)
  
• Did get his ass whooped by Mance. However he didn't have Longclaw and had no clue it was Mance. He took a certain strategy to who he thought was Rattleshirt. Plus Mance is said to be even better than the Halfhand
  
• Even in Winterfell he was regarded as a great swordsman. Everyone says he's better with a sword than Robb
  
• Has been in battles and had the command so he is weary and less arrogant/hungry which is often a flaw
  

On the other hand Loras:

• Is regarded as a great tourney knight who's good at jousting but that is largely horse riding and involves a lance. He himself says Garlan is a better swordsman
  
• Doesn't have a great build for a swordsman
  
• Is very green and too keen for glory. The only people we know he killed were two members of Renly's Rainbow Guard and from what we read it appears it wasn't even a fight he just kinda went up to them when they were unaware and killed them. We don't really know about his feats in the Battle of the Blackwater it was really only Garlan that was praised. We don't even know what happened at Dragonstone. For all we know Dragonstone didn't even fall. Even if what happened was true we can tell he's a shitty commander who is close to dying and is just very arrogant and too keen for glory
  
• I think it's just a matter of what Brienne says on the show "Maybe people just like to praise a famous name".
  

So who do you think wins in a sword fight on foot between these two? Oh and to keep it fair Jon doesn't have Ghost here

[OberynBlackfyre]

From what we can gather is that Jon seems a descent swordsman where Loras is a great KNIGHT, but his use of a sword is not the best (he admits his brother is better.)

However this kind of of stuff is always circumstantial......are they both at full health? Are either of them distracted? etc...

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

If Ygrittes ghost makes an entrance, only then will Jon die.

[Leonardo]

Loras takes it; he's older and likely faster/stronger. Jon doesn't have a great build for a swordsman either, he's just average. Loras also has more potential than Jon does, I think the bit with Mance was to show Jon's strength lies more in line with Ned's - He's a great company leader and commander, but not a particularly effective swordsman. Jaime's comments also seem to give weight to Loras' abilities.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Loras Tyrell wins handily.

Edit: Also, just because Loras says that his brother is better than him with a sword, doesn't mean he sucks with a sword himself. The gap between Loras and Garlan probably just comes down to size.

[Boarsbane]

My money would be on Loras. You are massively overrating Jon, being better than Robb doesn't make him a great swordsman and who is the better commander is completely irrelevant to who would win in a sword fight.

[Flig]

I liked how you just handwaved away Loras's involvement in the largest battle of the series to date with a "Yeah, but we don't reeeeally know what he did there." Come on now, I think it's safe to assume he was involved pretty heavily in the fighting.

[Gneisenau]

Certainly Loras is a very good rider.

[Light a wight tonight]

On form I'd say that Loras would be favored under normal circumstances. The wild card here is that Jon has shown that he can go into turbo mode, as when he was practicing with Iron Emmet, one of the Watch's best swordsmen, and nearly hammered him into the ground. I definitely wouldn't bet against Berserker Jon.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

I liked how you just handwaved away Loras's involvement in the largest battle of the series to date with a "Yeah, but we don't reeeeally know what he did there." Come on now, I think it's safe to assume he was involved pretty heavily in the fighting.

Loras at the Blackwater

[Vaxis]

I agree with the above posters, Loras certainly takes a victory under normal circumstances. However, Jon is more used to fighting in harsh conditions, such as those of the Haunted Forest and the Frostfangs. Jon likely has a better mind for utilizing terrain and other environmental advantages. Loras typically fights with the sword in tourney or melee settings, where such conditions are far more controlled. On that sort of neutral ground, I think Loras wins.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Jon got his ass kicked by Mance Rayder, so I think Lora's would win handily.

[Duckfield]

Jon is dead. Deal with it.

[Darksnider05]

Jon got his ass kicked by Mance Rayder, so I think Lora's would win handily.

Mance Rayder the guy who had to fight Free Folk leaders from all over to earn their allegiance is your measure?

[Ser Creighton]

Well Jon is only a little crispy, Loras is extra crispy, don't think he is in a good place to fight.

However at his best, Loras would own him. Mance easily handled Jon. Saying Jon needs a special weapon like Longclaw is all you need to know. And Jon has mentioned that. Jon is not written as this amazing warrior, he is more of the Ivanhoe model of a middling character, with good abilities, but is not exceptional at anything.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Loras probably wins on paper. He probably has more/better formal training and seemingly more raw talent. But Jon has the superior weapon and probably more practical experience (actual fighting, not tournaments). If they fought 10 times, Loras probably wins 6 or even 7.

If Jon gets a pass with Mance because he didn't know he was facing Mance, do the Tyrells get docked points at all because people were freaked the fuck out by Renly's "ghost"?

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

I liked how you just handwaved away Loras's involvement in the largest battle of the series to date with a "Yeah, but we don't reeeeally know what he did there." Come on now, I think it's safe to assume he was involved pretty heavily in the fighting.

But we don't know what he did there so how are we to know how good he really is. Yeah he probably killed a couple of guys. Shouldn't be too hard when you hit a smaller army from the back and take them unawares. and when you have 'Renly's ghost riding with you'. Only the really exceptional fighters got a mention. These include Ser Phillip Foote who killed Lord Bryce Caron, Lothor Brune who killed one Fossoway and captured two others and heck even a squire Josmyn Peckledon who killed two knights, wounder another and captured another two knights

[~DarkHorse~]

Loras takes it; he's older and likely faster/stronger. Jon doesn't have a great build for a swordsman either, he's just average. Loras also has more potential than Jon does, I think the bit with Mance was to show Jon's strength lies more in line with Ned's - He's a great company leader and commander, but not a particularly effective swordsman. Jaime's comments also seem to give weight to Loras' abilities.

I don't think you need to have great build to be a good swordsman. Jon is lean which makes him fast and swift and Rhaegar is described as having been lean and is also mentioned to have been a great swordsman.

Swordsmanship relies on skill and speed over brute strength so being lean can be an advantage.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

I think Loras probably wins on paper. He probably has more/better formal training and seemingly more raw talent. But Jon has the superior weapon and probably more practical experience (actual fighting, not tournaments). If they fought 10 times, Loras probably wins 6 or even 7.

If Jon gets a pass with Mance because he didn't know he was facing Mance, do the Tyrells get docked points at all because people were freaked the fuck out by Renly's "ghost"?

The Tyrells would have won on the Blackwater regardless. They just did that so more people yielded and they could add those men to their army and they had the bigger army and took Stannis unawares. I still think Mance would've beaten Jon if Jon knew it was him but Jon would've held his own against him

[Minsc]

But Jon has the superior weapon and probably more practical experience (actual fighting, not tournaments). If they fought 10 times, Loras probably wins 6 or even 7.

Loras has been involved in two major battles against foes that aren't made up of individuals with stone weapons and not while hiding behind a massive Wall. Quite frankly, Loras probably has the similar quality of practical experience as Jon. Simply, Longclaw would be the only advantage that Jon would hold and that would probably not be enough.

But we don't know what he did there so how are we to know how good he really is. Yeah he probably killed a couple of guys. Shouldn't be too hard when you hit a smaller army from the back and take them unawares. and when you have 'Renly's ghost riding with you'. Only the really exceptional fighters got a mention. These include Ser Phillip Foote who killed Lord Bryce Caron, Lothor Brune who killed one Fossoway and captured two others and heck even a squire Josmyn Peckledon who killed two knights, wounder another and captured another two knights

IIRC, Ran has mentioned that George has said that Loras fought valiantly and exceptionally in both of his major battles.