Sansa and Petyr

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Colonel Green provided this quote above, but I'll repeat it in order to emphasize something. (Sansa II, ACOK)

She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came back unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears.

She is remembering the other times - besides this one - that she has thought of the Septa and Jeyne. It was clearly numerous times ("sometimes") that she thought of them in the interim between the events and her recollection of those events in this chapter. If she had to try not to think of them too often, then likely she had thought of them quite often. It's hard to say how many times with exactitude, but I think it's pretty reasonable to suppose that it was more than twice.

[Lost Melnibonean]

If she's part of the plot to kill Robin for personal gain, I'd consider it controversial.

This again? Sansa did not betrayed Ned. Ned made no moves in regards to explain their political position to Sansa, and Sansa only "poured her heart out" to the Queen. She disobeyed her father, she did not betrayed him.

I had always gone along with the idea that Sansa's naive betrayal of the Ned was moot, i.e., that Cersei was planning to strike exactly as she did in any event. But after reading this passage for the sixth time, I wonder...

"But I love him," Sansa wailed, confused and frightened. What did they mean to do to her? What had they done to her father? It was not supposed to happen this way. She had to wed Joffrey, they were betrothed, he was promised to her, she had even dreamed about it. It wasn't fair to take him away from her on account of whatever her father might have done.

"How well I know that, child," Cersei said, her voice so kind and sweet. "Why else should you have come to me and told me of your father's plan to send you away from us, if not for love?"

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father. She had never done anything so willful before, and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. "He was going to take me back to Winterfell and marry me to some hedge knight, even though it was Joff I wanted. I told him, but he wouldn't listen." The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."

I'm not so sure it was a coincidence. Think about the timing. Robert had just died. Lannister men completely outnumbered Stark men. Baelish apparently told her the City Watch was hers. She didn't have to move against Stark so precipitously. She could afford to wait for him to move against Joffrey and declare him a traitor. She would have had herself named Regent and her father Hand and The Ned could have moved or gone back to Winterfell. But once Sansa told her that the Ned was sending his girls away, she decided to take Sansa in hand and force the issue herself at that moment.

[LongRider]

I'm not so sure it was a coincidence. Think about the timing. Robert had just died. Lannister men completely outnumbered Stark men. Baelish apparently told her the City Watch was hers. She didn't have to move against Stark so precipitously. She could afford to wait for him to move against Joffrey and declare him a traitor. She would have had herself named Regent and her father Hand and The Ned could have moved or gone back to Winterfell. But once Sansa told her that the Ned was sending his girls away, she decided to take Sansa in hand and force the issue herself at that moment.

What tipped Cersie's hand was Ned telling her he knew her children were not King Robert's but products of incest and that he wanted her to leave KL before he told KR.

[LongRider]

Like other folks have mentioned, I also think LF will survive the series. Survival however, does not mean he reaches his goals. Perhaps he will end up in Braavos, perhaps he will end up an impoverished peasant, I just think he'll find a way to survive, but not to the luxury life he would prefer.

As for Sweetrobin, he is Sansa's only living kin that she has contact with. Her uncle's Edmure and Blackfish are unavailable to her; one imprisoned and one MIA and Jon is at the Wall. Sansa knows as well as anyone that kinslaying is a terrible wrong, in fact it is considered a sin in her culture. I just don't see Sansa becoming a kinslayer when she has lost so much kin as it is.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Like other folks have mentioned, I also think LF will survive the series. Survival however, does not mean he reaches his goals. Perhaps he will end up in Braavos, perhaps he will end up an impoverished peasant, I just think he'll find a way to survive, but not to the luxury life he would prefer.

As for Sweetrobin, he is Sansa's only living kin that she has contact with. Her uncle's Edmure and Blackfish are unavailable to her; one imprisoned and one MIA and Jon is at the Wall. Sansa knows as well as anyone that kinslaying is a terrible wrong, in fact it is considered a sin in her culture. I just don't see Sansa becoming a kinslayer when she has lost so much kin as it is.

"You had best take that up with the Lord Protector." ... Father and I have larger concerns.

[Le Cygne]

So now we are taking Cersei at her word - she's a master manipulator, too, and she's playing Sansa.

Here's a sequence of events, and there's no way Ned would want his daughter to suffer like this for a mistake she made after he made a series of mistakes. No one would want that for someone they loves, anyway. Sansa is taking in as much as she can, as she can. And this is apart from what Littlefinger has done - she's not responsible for his actions.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103177-sansa-ned-whats-the-difference/?p=5369108

And as The Ned's Little Girl points out, in a story, we are not necessarily shown every time something happens - we are shown representative events. If someone spends a year living in close proximity with someone, for example, and we are shown a half dozen interactions, these are not the only interactions they've had all year. That's implied.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

People who say Sansa betrayed Ned confuse me. She was isolated in WF ( like all the Stark offspring) and raised to believe the Queen above all else and was made to trust her. Ned even said she couldn't betray the Lannisters, she was simply doing what she was told. Do you honestly believe Sansa knew what would of happened? She thought her dad wanted to leave KL for no reason. ( Ned didn't say shit to Sansa.) She went to the queen for support.

How would you feel if you were 11 and almost had what you dreamed of all you life then your father for no apparent reason wants to take you away from it because he feels like it?

Blame Ned for being stupid. ( Sorry Ned.)

[LongRider]

Also, King Robert did his part to doom Ned; when he excused everyone from his death bed except Ned to write up the declaration of Ned becoming the regent. There were no witnesses to the creation of this document and no witnesses to sign it. Because of this, Cersei could, and in fact did, disregard KR wishes and destroyed the order (in front of plenty of witnesses too!)

There was more than one factor that killed Eddard Stark, Sansa's visit to Ceresi was not 'the' one thing that killed him.

[Lost Melnibonean]

So now we are taking Cersei at her word - she's a master manipulator, too, and she's playing Sansa.

Here's a sequence of events, and there's no way Ned would want his daughter to suffer like this for a mistake she made after he made a series of mistakes. No one would want that for someone they loves, anyway. Sansa is taking in as much as she can, as she can. And this is apart from what Littlefinger has done - she's not responsible for his actions.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103177-sansa-ned-whats-the-difference/?p=5369108

And as The Ned's Little Girl points out, in a story, we are not necessarily shown every time something happens - we are shown representative events. If someone spends a year living in close proximity with someone, for example, and we are shown a half dozen interactions, these are not the only interactions they've had all year. That's implied.

I try not to take any character at their word. All words flow from the George. I always try to ask what's the story he's telling us? I agree with the timeline Butterbumps! laid out. I would have expressed it differently but her account is correct. That does not rule out the possibility that Cersei would have bided her time a bit longer and that Sansa's action precipitated Cersei's purge. Of course the Ned wouldn't want his daughter to feel bad about it. Arya though... if she finds out, their reckoning could be very ugly. Nobody is responsible for Petyr's actions except Petyr. The important interactions need to be shown or at least hinted at to the reader or they're not relevant to the story.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Also, King Robert did his part to doom Ned; when he excused everyone from his death bed except Ned to write up the declaration of Ned becoming the regent. There were no witnesses to the creation of this document and no witnesses to sign it. Because of this, Cersei could, and in fact did, disregard KR wishes and destroyed the order (in front of plenty of witnesses too!)

There was more than one factor that killed Eddard Stark, Sansa's visit to Ceresi was not 'the' one thing that killed him.

Absolutely. The Ned was going down. The only question was when.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

Of course the Ned wouldn't want his daughter to feel bad about it. Arya though... if she finds out, their reckoning could be very ugly.

Arya knows Sansa better then most people on this board it seems, she knows Sansa would never ever willingly betray their father to his death knowingly and would certainly chalk it down to Sansa being misinformed.

Also, she heard Sansa cry and scream when Ned was given his sentence. Don't be silly and think Arya would blame anyone but Joffery.

[OldGimletEye]

Absolutely. The Ned was going down. The only question was when.

Well, it seems to me that the logical point in time would be when Robert died, particularly when Ned failed to procure sufficient and reliable forces in KL to enforce Robert's will. Also, it seems to me that Ned should have known that Cersei wasn't going to give up power without a fight.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Arya knows Sansa better then most people on this board it seems, she knows Sansa would never ever willingly betray their father to his death knowingly and would certainly chalk it down to Sansa being misinformed.

Also, she heard Sansa cry and scream when Ned was given his sentence. Don't be silly and think Arya would blame anyone but Joffery.

Arya has been through a lot since that time. What she might believe Sansa did after another 2,000 pages and two years, I don't know. But as a reader, I don't believe Sansa betrayed her father to his death with malice aforethought. Sansa was taking desperate action to try to save her betrothal to Joffrey and her place at court. She had no idea what was truly going on. She was an 11 year old girl with stars in her eyes.

[Colonel Green]

Which, again, is not her becoming a kinslayer. She thinks of it as necessary to get him down the mountain while preserving appearances of Robert as a lord.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Which, again, is not her becoming a kinslayer. She thinks of it as necessary to get him down the mountain while preserving appearances of Robert as a lord.

If Robert dies, and the cause of death is at least partly attributable to the quantity of sweetsleep in his system, wouldn't you agree that Sansa will have been at least partly responsible for his death? Don't you believe that Sansa has enough information to foresee that continued doses of sweetsleep could kill him or at least cause serious harm?

[Le Cygne]

I would imagine after that conversation, when Littlefinger was rather obvious about wanting Sweetrobin out of the way, if Sansa continued to administer the dose, I'll join you in your criticism. What she did so far was make one decision for his benefit - it's better that he leaves the Eyrie, there's a degree of safety in him being among others.

Just seeing this, Littlefinger is little, too. Catelyn and Sansa both called him a "small man" - shorter than Catelyn, she says. It's kind of funny if it wasn't so horrible, but he's been after these two women, and he's not even remotely their type, and they are both having the same reactions. Right down to the mint, that must be a Tully turnoff.

[Woman of War]

Yes, that's the point I was making, the sort of man Littlefinger was.........

Everyone knows Sansa doesn't know various things he has done, but in a story, it also matters what the readers/audience knows.

Yes, and from that gap between our knowledge and that of Sansa the plot draws its suspense. We know that something horrible will happen if she becomes his lover, ally, whatever. That emotional nightmare pending over her adds to the story, why should GRRM waste that plot potential because it would be oh so ugly for her as soon as see finds out? LF being evil and she does not know how much is rather a reason to make it happen.

[Colonel Green]

Don't you believe that Sansa has enough information to foresee that continued doses of sweetsleep could kill him or at least cause serious harm?

The maester tells her that he's okay with doing it so long as he's not dosed again for a good while.

I agree that her attitude in the scene is far more political than it would have been in the past, but it's a far cry from being a kinslayer, or indicating that she would be willing to be one. Particularly as, as far as she knows at that point, Littlefinger's plan requires Robert to be alive.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Le Cygne and Col. Green, I know we see some core things differently, and I know I've been critical of one of your favorite characters and I'm anticipating a very ugly turn for her, but I have appreciated your challenging yet civil rebuttals.

[Le Cygne]

Also, I think the controversial chapter is the one Sansa fans will like. :)