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Stannis isn't a religious zealot


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#1 AintNoStark

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:47 PM

Just some really dumb misconception show only fans have going on and, surprisingly, some book readers too. Like, do you not read his chapters properly? If anything Stannis started off the series as atheistic, began using a new alien faith to his advantage and now seems somewhat agnostic towards it as of his journey in the North.

 

 



#2 Mad Monkey

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:57 PM

Sometimes, when political officials bed down with religious zealots, it becomes hard to distinguish between the two. As readers we should know that he is not a R'hllor zealot because we have seen him in action and know that he is a man who looks to himself and his own strength to seek justice and do right. People living within the context of the series, however, see him burning idols, waving R'hllor banners, and consecrating entire civilizations to the Lord of Light. If ASOIAF were a true history, Stannis would probably be remembered by the red faith the same way Constantine is remembered in Christianity.



#3 LordStoneheart

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:02 PM

He is allowing Mel to preach her extremist violence, openly allies himself with that fate, does in fact burn people alive in honor of this deity, and rejects all other religions as false when it suits him like when he tells Jon his NW vows don't count. Even if its just to gain an advantage, its how people see him and the message he sends with the flaming stag as his sigil and Mel by his side. 

 

Stannis doesn't need to truly believe in Rhllor to be a religious zealot. He's allowing the zealotry to go on, then he is a zealot. 



#4 Kienn

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:06 PM

I'll read Stannis' chapter properly when we get one. From the people around him he definitely comes off as moving further and further into zealotry.

#5 RoamingRonin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

No, but Melisandre is. 



#6 The Drunkard

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:17 PM

Yeah, he's definitely not in the same boat as Selyse, Melisandre and the other devout Queen's Men. His relationship with the entire faith is more a contract than it is one of worship. He publicly adopts the religion, provides the faith with followers, takes on the Azor Ahai mantle and conducts his executions via burnings, and in return expects that R'hllor continue to assist him in the fight against the Others and for the Iron Throne. But regardless of how much R'hllor helps, Stannis would never give him his worship, he made his opinion on gods clear in the red hawk story.

 

You can't blame show-only viewers for thinking that way, by the way. Show-Stannis has had a lot of his personal, revealing monologues cut, and he was made far more unquestioning when it comes to Melisandre. 



#7 Stan the Man Baratheon

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:35 PM

Yeah, he's definitely not in the same boat as Selyse, Melisandre and the other devout Queen's Men. His relationship with the entire faith is more a contract than it is one of worship. He publicly adopts the religion, provides the faith with followers, takes on the Azor Ahai mantle and conducts his executions via burnings, and in return expects that R'hllor continue to assist him in the fight against the Others and for the Iron Throne. But regardless of how much R'hllor helps, Stannis would never give him his worship, he made his opinion on gods clear in the red hawk story.

 

You can't blame show-only viewers for thinking that way, by the way. Show-Stannis has had a lot of his personal, revealing monologues cut, and he was made far more unquestioning when it comes to Melisandre. 

THIS. 



#8 El Guapo

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 11:39 PM

He is allowing Mel to preach her extremist violence, openly allies himself with that fate, does in fact burn people alive in honor of this deity, and rejects all other religions as false when it suits him like when he tells Jon his NW vows don't count. Even if its just to gain an advantage, its how people see him and the message he sends with the flaming stag as his sigil and Mel by his side. 

 

Stannis doesn't need to truly believe in Rhllor to be a religious zealot. He's allowing the zealotry to go on, then he is a zealot. 

 

This pretty much.



#9 aryagonnakill#2

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:06 AM

Stannis allowing zealotry to occur does not make him a zealot, by definition, it makes him advantageous.  A zealot believes, Stannis does not, its not complicated.



#10 IRON BANK

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:17 AM

Seems to me Stannis is more concerned with results the red god provides this, So Stannis accepts Mels guidance.  However for Stannis and fans this produces a real problem religion in ASOIAF is a strong social norm.  Stannis might not see this as a big deal, even though most of the other characters do, and people kill over ideals and beliefs more than anything else.



#11 Dain Storm

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:22 AM

I will say, as a Stannis fan, it really pisses me off that he burned the statues of the seven, allowed his men to attack the sept at Dragonstone, burned the godswood in Storm's End, and left Selyse unpunished for burning Sunglass and the Rambton boys. Atheist or not, if he allows his men to attack other people's faiths, his reign is going to be bloody one.

I'm hoping he doesn't burn the godswood in Winterfell.

#12 Forfax

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:34 AM

I don't believe Stannis is a zealot, but I do believe he is warming up to the idea of him being Azor Ahai.

For the first time in his life he's more important than Renly or Robert, a prophet to fight the real fight, a destined warrior to stem the tide of darkness, someone other than Robert to lead a fight. How could you not like it when you get people around you fervently clamoring around you preaching that your a reborn prophet.

As of ADWD I think he's warming up to the idea somewhat just a little bit or he might be entertaining the idea in the back of his mind.

#13 GallowsKnight

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:41 AM

I will say, as a Stannis fan, it really pisses me off that he 1.burned the statues of the seven, 2. allowed his men to attack the sept at Dragonstone, 3. burned the godswood in Storm's End, and left Selyse unpunished for burning 4. Sunglass and the Rambton boys. Atheist or not, if he allows his men to attack other people's faiths, his reign is going to be bloody one.

I'm hoping he 5. doesn't burn the godswood in Winterfell.

 

1, 2 & 3 was Stannis destroying his own property. It may be insensitive to others beliefs, but I don't think it was wrong.

 

4. This is a issue, I agree. The Rambton were traitors, they took up arms against him when he wanted to destroy his own property. Sunglasse is more pitiable as he abstained pacifically. But burning them as Selyse did was pretty terrible.

 

I understand why Stannis didn't punish her. It undermines his authority for her to have done with without him approving or knowing. So he must pretend it was sanctioned. On top of this the only troops he still has after the Blackwater are largely Red-God Worshipers or Florents (or both).

 

5. I don't think Stannis would be that foolish. He knows how inflammatory that would be. Likewise he appreciates that his army is drawn from many different faiths when he commands his men to "pray harder" instead of another sacrifice.



#14 Melisandros Megas

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:46 AM

He's not really religious, but he is still Stannithustra, prophet of the Lord of Light.

#15 Maester Pedant

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:52 AM

He doesn't seem to believe in all the Red God nonsense himself, at least not with the passion and devotion his wife and the Queen's Men do. But he is at the same time enabling them and using them. His relationship with that religion is instrumental.

 

That being said, I never understood what the endgame was, from a religious point of view. Would Melisandre and her followers try to shove the Lord of Light down everyone's throat? Actively persecute the followers of the Faith and Old Gods? Because if that's the plan, I doubt Stannis would allow it.



#16 jon stark I

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 04:58 AM

Stannis has nothing to with the concept of religion.He sees it as a weapon.Mel has some magic and he uses it.He gives anything needed to sustain that mgical support because right now that is the only adventage he has.He burns people because Mel says with those sacrifices her powers get stronger or because Mel says sacrifices are needed to continue doing magic.Stannis has no interest in religions.His religion is duty.



#17 Nictarion

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 05:10 AM

He is allowing Mel to preach her extremist violence, openly allies himself with that fate, does in fact burn people alive in honor of this deity, and rejects all other religions as false when it suits him like when he tells Jon his NW vows don't count. Even if its just to gain an advantage, its how people see him and the message he sends with the flaming stag as his sigil and Mel by his side. 
 
Stannis doesn't need to truly believe in Rhllor to be a religious zealot. He's allowing the zealotry to go on, then he is a zealot. 

Pretty much this.

The fact that he doesn't really believe in it makes it worse IMO.

#18 Stan the Man Baratheon

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:04 AM

 

1, 2 & 3 was Stannis destroying his own property. It may be insensitive to others beliefs, but I don't think it was wrong.

 

4. This is a issue, I agree. The Rambton were traitors, they took up arms against him when he wanted to destroy his own property. Sunglasse is more pitiable as he abstained pacifically. But burning them as Selyse did was pretty terrible.

 

I understand why Stannis didn't punish her. It undermines his authority for her to have done with without him approving or knowing. So he must pretend it was sanctioned. On top of this the only troops he still has after the Blackwater are largely Red-God Worshipers or Florents (or both).

 

5. I don't think Stannis would be that foolish. He knows how inflammatory that would be. Likewise he appreciates that his army is drawn from many different faiths when he commands his men to "pray harder" instead of another sacrifice.

 

He doesn't seem to believe in all the Red God nonsense himself, at least not with the passion and devotion his wife and the Queen's Men do. But he is at the same time enabling them and using them. His relationship with that religion is instrumental.

 

That being said, I never understood what the endgame was, from a religious point of view. Would Melisandre and her followers try to shove the Lord of Light down everyone's throat? Actively persecute the followers of the Faith and Old Gods? Because if that's the plan, I doubt Stannis would allow it.

 

Stannis has nothing to with the concept of religion.He sees it as a weapon.Mel has some magic and he uses it.He gives anything needed to sustain that mgical support because right now that is the only adventage he has.He burns people because Mel says with those sacrifices her powers get stronger or because Mel says sacrifices are needed to continue doing magic.Stannis has no interest in religions.His religion is duty.

THIS.



#19 Grimbold

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:31 AM

Well can you blame show Stannis?

 

Isn't it on the show that he has those chats with Davos, saying stuff along the lines of "you've seen what her god can do, how do you expect me not believe in it?". I think it was the dungeon scene where he talks to Davos.

 

Wait a second, isn't that scene in the books as well?

 

So from that, one can infer that Stannis shows some degree of belief in the red god.



#20 AintNoStark

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:32 AM

Yes, well said.

 

He uses religion. To his own end. You know how your siblings and friends tell you the boogeyman will get you if you dont get your sleep at night? They do it to scare you into shutting up and going to bed , not because they actually believe in the boogeyman.


Edited by AintNoStark, 27 February 2014 - 06:33 AM.