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Robb and Jon if they had been together?


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#1 the conquoring bastard25

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:33 PM

Do you think that the events of the WOTFK would have had a different outcome if Jon Snow had been by Robbs side for the war?

Meaning if he had been with Robb while he was in the west do you think that Jon might have talked his brother out of marrying the Westerling girl?

If he had been the one that had been charged with holding Riverrun while Robb was in the west do you think that maybe he had he been in charge instead of Edmure Tully things might have gone differently? How do you think Edmure Tully would react to having be to second in command to a bastard? What about if he had been the one to hold the garrison at the Twins. Would Walder Frey maybe married one of his daughters to a bastard. Assuming that Walder is a pragmatic man and would have to know that the bonds between the brothers runs deep and that as king Robb very well could legitimize Jon. What if Jon had been the one to Teat with Greyjoy? As a bastard he is one of the kings blood but as a bastard he would make a poor hostage as he can't inherit anything and other than wounding Robb and pissing him off he holds no real value.

What about their different battle commanding skills.

Robb in my mind favors using surprise and ambush tactics and taking advantage of the situation. While Jon to me seem more of a guerilla warfare type commander. Appear in a blaze of smoke and disappear just a quickly. They both like to use elements of surprise and will use the terrain to their advantages. While Jon and Robb both seem to like to use little know treks or tracks. Do you think their styles compliment each other or are they too similar meaning that with out contrast they would be leaving themselves vulnerable and open with out looking at all of the possiblities.

#2 Mirijam

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:43 PM

ghost would die on account of being white?



#3 aryagonnakill#2

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:44 PM

The most logical thing to have Jon do imo would be to have him lead the infantry against Tywin instead of Roose.  Doesn't seem to me that any lord would just be replaced in his own castle like you suggested for Edmure and Walder.  Obviously Catlyn would have tried to talk him out of it but his trust for Jon may have won out.  If he went with Robb it would have been interesting to see the 2 direwolves fighting together.



#4 KingofSothoryos

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:50 PM

Do you think that the events of the WOTFK would have had a different outcome if Jon Snow had been by Robbs side for the war?Meaning if he had been with Robb while he was in the west do you think that Jon might have talked his brother out of marrying the Westerling girl?


I definitely think Jon would have talked Robb out of marrying Jeyne. Plus I think Robb and Jon would have grieved together for Bran and Rickon, so Jeyne wouldn't have had a chance to get with Robb.

If he had been the one that had been charged with holding Riverrun while Robb was in the west do you think that maybe he had he been in charge instead of Edmure Tully things might have gone differently? How do you think Edmure Tully would react to having be to second in command to a bastard?


There is no way Robb would have put Jon before Edmure to command Riverrun. Edmure was the heir and functioning Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and his bannermen would not follow a bastard when their liege lord us right there.

What about if he had been the one to hold the garrison at the Twins. Would Walder Frey maybe married one of his daughters to a bastard. Assuming that Walder is a pragmatic man and would have to know that the bonds between the brothers runs deep and that as king Robb very well could legitimize Jon.


I think Robb would have kept Jon close to him for his counsel. Remember, they are both 15-16, so Robb gets to lead because he's king, Jon would seem young and inexperience compared to Robb's other bannermen.

What if Jon had been the one to Teat with Greyjoy? As a bastard he is one of the kings blood but as a bastard he would make a poor hostage as he can't inherit anything and other than wounding Robb and pissing him off he holds no real value.


I think Balon would have thrown Jon in a dungeon and that would be the last we see of Jon, ever!

What about their different battle commanding skills.Robb in my mind favors using surprise and ambush tactics and taking advantage of the situation. While Jon to me seem more of a guerilla warfare type commander. Appear in a blaze of smoke and disappear just a quickly. They both like to use elements of surprise and will use the terrain to their advantages. While Jon and Robb both seem to like to use little know treks or tracks. Do you think their styles compliment each other or are they too similar meaning that with out contrast they would be leaving themselves vulnerable and open with out looking at all of the possiblities.


I don't think we know what kind of battle commander Jon would be. Jon was a soldier on a guerrilla mission against the wildlings and he defended the Wall with the few men he had, but he has yet to lead a host to battle like he was planning on doing when he was stabbed!

#5 XSarellaX

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:52 PM

As much as I'd would love seeing them together, Jon wouldn't be half the man he became if he wasn't sent to the Wall. Sure, he would have matured anyway, but it wouldn't be the same.

 

No way Jon gets to command anything. He would help at the councils, fight beside Robb, but he would have to prove himself before being able to lead.

 

If Jon came to terms with being a bastard, the way he does in the canon, he might have been able to use his own life experience to convince Robb not to marry Jeyne, since things worked better for everyone with Ned leaving his mother to stay with Catelyn and Jon turned out ok.


Edited by XSarellaX, 27 February 2014 - 07:58 PM.


#6 Warden of the Cheesy

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:53 PM

Well I do think Jon tries to get Robb to honor his vows.. So maybe the RW never happens. Jon would have been a trusted person to have guarding Jaime Lannister, so Catelyn may never have had a chance to release him. A lot could be different. Strategically, they may have attempted more raids on Lannister territory, but I don't imagine more than that.



#7 ~DarkHorse~

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:55 PM

Robb may have faired better or Jon could have just shared Robb's fate? There's no telling, small decisions and encounters can change allot. Being at War could have brought them closer together or further apart (especially with Robb becoming King and Jon remaining the inglorious Bastard). 

 

I personally, think Robb would have done better with a brother by his side (especially after learning about Winterfell and believing Bran and Rickon had been killed) he would have had Jon to confide in and share comfort with- no need for Jeyne. In the books it's mentioned that at times when no one was around Robb and Jon sometimes cried in front of each other so I think they were close enough. Also, Robb clearly values having a brother figure with him- Olyvar and Jeyne's brothers (Catelyn mentions that they had taken up the role as Robb's other brothers, including Jon). 

 

However, I don't think Walder Frey would have accepted marrying one of his daughters to a Bastard (prickly old git would've seen it as a slight) but perhaps one of his Bastard daughters? Then later down the line R+L=J is revealed and he thanks his lucky stars! 

 

Sometimes I wish Jon had got away from the Wall. There aren't enough Jon and Robb moments and I've always found them interesting. 


Edited by ~DarkHorse~, 27 February 2014 - 07:56 PM.


#8 The Sullen Sellsword

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:01 PM

He'd probably only be part of Robb's guard and nothing more.



#9 Jon of the (Evil) Dead

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:07 PM

I think the RW wouldn't happen, probably. But the Wall would be a mess, with only Janos Slynt to fend off the wildlings  :ack:

 

I do picture a very optimistic scenario in which Robb makes a deal with Mance and the free folk and lets them settle down in the Gift as long as they fight the Ironborn or something, and Jon would be perfect to seal that alliance by marrying Val (not for the reason Stannis intended, but because other northeners would be more tolerant of the wildlings if the King's brother marries one)



#10 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:15 PM

Jon would have been a minor counsellor and a minor leader of Robb's army. And killed during the Red Wedding.

 

"Jon would have talked Robb out of marrying Jeyne"

 

 

Jon? Jon Snow? The Bastard?

 

<kit's voice>Robb... you wouldn't want to father a Bastard... look at father, look at me.</kit's voice>



#11 Dicer

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:16 PM

 Jon would have been a trusted person to have guarding Jaime Lannister, so Catelyn may never have had a chance to release him.

 

Remember that Jon was ready to forsake his vows and rush to Winterfell for Arya. Arya is his weak spot and he is as governed by his emotions as Catelyn was governed by hers. I think that he would actually agree with Cat's decision to release Jaime even if it was the wrong decision.


Edited by Dicer, 27 February 2014 - 08:17 PM.


#12 The Sullen Sellsword

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:16 PM

<kit's voice>Robb... you wouldn't want to father a Bastard... look at father, look at me.</kit's voice>

 

*dramatic look, mouth wide open*



#13 Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:17 PM

I totally misunderstood the title of this thread. Oy. WK has ruined me.

(P.S. Do not actually ship Jon/Robb, just so we're clear.)

#14 The Wolves

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:21 PM

I think the RW wouldn't happen, probably. But the Wall would be a mess, with only Janos Slynt to fend off the wildlings  :ack:
 
I do picture a very optimistic scenario in which Robb makes a deal with Mance and the free folk and lets them settle down in the Gift as long as they fight the Ironborn or something, and Jon would be perfect to seal that alliance by marrying Val (not for the reason Stannis intended, but because other northeners would be more tolerant of the wildlings if the King's brother marries one)


What should have been :-( I'm so sad right now

#15 the conquoring bastard25

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:26 PM

I agree that Jon probably wouldn't have been placed over any of his brother's bannerman. It was a hypothetical in a hypothetical situation. I agree that if he had been in the west there would be no need of Jeyne. Or if he had been at Riverrun he would have been the one to guard Jamie Lannister and given the history between Cat and Jon there is no way he lets her in the see the Kingslayer. Daughter of Riverrun or no she's still one of he kings subjects. If he had been left at the Twins Walder Frey is an opportunities he might have seen marrying one of his daughters to the kings bastard brother as a foundation marriage. It strengthens the bonds between their houses and it could pay off for him in the long run. He would understand the bonds that run between brothers. Look at what king Aegon did for his brother he get him a lordship to one of the best regions in the land. It might not be that much of a stretch to say that after the war that even if he doesn't legitimize his brother he would still give him lands some where in his vast kingdom. If things had panned out Robb very well could have ended up ruling the west, trident and the north. If the main Lannister line had fallen and by rights of conquest Jon could have ended up ruling Casterly Rock or some of the lands that Robb captures while raiding and plundering in the West.

If Jon had gone to the Greyjoys, Jon isn't Theon whom is still by Robb's side and can still be killed if need be. So like I said Jon would make a terrible hostage. HE's related to the King but as he's a bastard he's not in he line to inherit. If he had given the ships to Robb he also could have been given a share a large and more important realm say Lannisport. It's got a large port and sits on the coast which would be help him rule as the IB like to be close to the coast. Like Cat said send someone that can speak with his words as Jon is Robb's brother and they grew up they know each other and their nature. What his king would find acceptable and what terms he would never accept or find too much.

Plus the brothers seem to be a perfect fit they balance each other. Robb with his spirit for live and impulsiveness he would be the one to make Jon smile and to show his softer side. While jon with his more serious nature would be able to bring Robb to heel to make him stop and think about his actions.

#16 XSarellaX

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 08:55 PM

Well, even if Robb didn't marry Jeyne, he would have to deal with a massive wildling invasion. 

 

I agree that Jon probably wouldn't have been placed over any of his brother's bannerman. It was a hypothetical in a hypothetical situation. I agree that if he had been in the west there would be no need of Jeyne. Or if he had been at Riverrun he would have been the one to guard Jamie Lannister and given the history between Cat and Jon there is no way he lets her in the see the Kingslayer. Daughter of Riverrun or no she's still one of he kings subjects. If he had been left at the Twins Walder Frey is an opportunities he might have seen marrying one of his daughters to the kings bastard brother as a foundation marriage. It strengthens the bonds between their houses and it could pay off for him in the long run. He would understand the bonds that run between brothers. Look at what king Aegon did for his brother he get him a lordship to one of the best regions in the land. It might not be that much of a stretch to say that after the war that even if he doesn't legitimize his brother he would still give him lands some where in his vast kingdom. If things had panned out Robb very well could have ended up ruling the west, trident and the north. If the main Lannister line had fallen and by rights of conquest Jon could have ended up ruling Casterly Rock or some of the lands that Robb captures while raiding and plundering in the West.
 

Walder Frey has way too many children and grandchildren to marry. Yes, he would have wanted Jon for one of his bastard daughters...

 

But in an ideal scenerio, he would refuse.. just a few months before Jon discovers he is Aemon Targaryen, the First of His Name, titles, titles, people all over Westeros come to fight for him, he is proclaimed AA, TPtwP, LH, Lighbringer... every title you can think of..



#17 the conquoring bastard25

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:11 PM

which would make Walder Frey want to marry his daughter to the bastard son of the Targ prince. Only for Jon to end up eclipsing his true born brother the Young Wolf and I've always been of the mind that if Jon has a Targ secret name it would be Daeron III of his name.

I would love to know how the Young wolf would take that bit of news.

Oh by the way Robb you maybe King in the North but I'm heir to the entire realm. Remember when you sprained the royal wrist with that trick with the sword?

Same goes for Cat's reaction to that bit of news. Bend down and kiss the royal foot and for the love I bear your son I wont have your head. Now it seems as if you do need a bit of my absolution after all.

#18 GallowsKnight

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:12 PM

What happened to Robb was pretty much the worst possible outcome for him. So I feel while the addition of Jon Snow might just mean another corpse at the RW, there's a good chance his presence might have caused things to turn out better.

 

Firstly At the Wall:

-The wight would kill Lord Mormont. A more conservative commander like Denys Mallister or Thoren Smallwood would be elected. The great ranging probably wouldn't happen. So the watch might be able to hold off against Mance for a while. But much of the information against the Others would not be discovered. Especially if Sam Tarly is dead from training or cleaning pots in a kitchen instead of sorting out Aemon's books.

 

Back to Robb, what he gains is a confidant. We see throughout the story Robb trying to find companions his own age, his personal guard, Theon Grey, the Frey Squires and the Westerling boy. Jon would be there for Robb. It's likely that with his presence to mourn over Bran and Rickon with, he may never bed Jeyne Westerling and implode his Frey alliance.

 

On top of this I feel people are underestimated Jon Snow's value in battle and as a messager. Jon could have been sent to Pyke or to Bitterbridge. He is Robb's brother and out of the succession, so his hostage value is decreased. 

 

Yes Jon is a bastard. Nobles don't like bastards and following them. But Jon isn't any ordinary bastard. He is brother to the King. He is Ned's son (supposedly) and has his features. He also has a giant frickin' Direwolf.

 

Imagine two direwolves at Whispering Wood or Oxcross? Would Jaime have even managed to get close to Robb, would the Karstarks still live? What if Ghost had been at the Green Fork and managed to run through the camp horselines before the Westermen could organise their army.


Edited by GallowsKnight, 27 February 2014 - 09:13 PM.


#19 Boarsbane

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:14 PM

which would make Walder Frey want to marry his daughter to the bastard son of the Targ prince. Only for Jon to end up eclipsing his true born brother the Young Wolf and I've always been of the mind that if Jon has a Targ secret name it would be Daeron III of his name.

I would love to know how the Young wolf would take that bit of news.

Oh by the way Robb you maybe King in the North but I'm heir to the entire realm. Remember when you sprained the royal wrist with that trick with the sword?

Same goes for Cat's reaction to that bit of news. Bend down and kiss the royal foot and for the love I bear your son I wont have your head. Now it seems as if you do need a bit of my absolution after all.


Only problem being no one would believe him, so he might not want to get all high and mighty with the guy with the only army that might back his claim.

#20 GallowsKnight

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:25 PM

 

He'd probably only be part of Robb's guard and nothing more.

 

Even then that stills changes history quite a bit.

 

Another sword and another Direwolf at Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps. Does Jaime still get captured or instead torn to pieces? 

 

A trusted confidant and brother when you've found out your family was killed? Does Jeyne still get bedded?