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Robb and Jon if they had been together?


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Jon would have been in the highest levels of government within the Northern adminstatration.

Look at it this way

Jon fights in the battle of whisphering woods. It's Jon and Ghost that cross blades with Jamie Lannister Ghost sensing that Jon's under threat rips Jamies sword arm off from the shoulder (as payment for harming Bran and summer's bondmate) then tears the Kingslayers throat out. That would give Jon the moniker The Kingslayer slayer. Robb sends Theon to teat with his father, sends Jon down to teat with the dornish and Renly. Promising Martell justice for Elia's death, with Greywind in the west and the mad mountain fast on his trail they could have crossed paths and well that's the end of the mountain that rode, a high place in the northern councils and lastly to marry Sansa Stark to Tysten Martell. Yet before he get's there his reputation comes before him and Martell is expecting something much more then the image that Jon Snow presents. IT's still impressive that this young boy killed the skilled and far famed Kingslayer and with Ghost stalking Jon's heels that might give Martell a little more reason to pay close attention to what Jon has to say. Now at the same time that Jon's down in the south Robb is in the West giving Tywin and his western bannermen hell. Word still hasn't reached the west of Theon's treachery. On his way north Jon get word that Renly is dead and that Loras Tyrell is on his way to highgarden. There also his rep goes before him, LF hasn't gotten there yet so the Rosey slut is still open for marriage. Jon is good at number and having been empowered to speak with his voice he contrives to break the alliance with the Freys(what's 5,000 to 10,000 swords against 80,000 to 100,000 swords and as a bastard the blame can be laid at his feet. All men know that bastards are mistrustful by nature.)THe kings honor stays in tact and Jon has just delivered an alliance that gather's more swords then the alliance that his mother made for him. His rep as a warrior and administrator not to mention as a closer(a great negotionator) in the mix. There would be no need for the red wedding because Edmure would still have made his blounder and Tywin would have rushed to get to KL. Instead of finding a waiting and helpful Tyrell army they would instead find an hostile tyrell army outside the gates of KL and a very pissed off Stannis on the banks of the Blackwater. This time instead the wolf and rose smash the lion and can either make peace or war on the Stag as they like. Jon has just won the throne for his brother and as his reward has just been given the Title of warden of the North and Robb takes the Iron Throne.

Am I saying it would have gone as smoothly as all that. That the lords would be happy about teating with a bastard but a bastard with a highly respected rep as a warrior and leader of men would go a long way to keeping them respectful and ghost is always there to eat a couple of fingers if anyone gets out of pocket.

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Jon would have been in the highest levels of government within the Northern adminstatration.

Not necessarily.

Look at it this way

Jon fights in the battle of whisphering woods. It's Jon and Ghost that cross blades with Jamie Lannister Ghost sensing that Jon's under threat rips Jamies sword arm off from the shoulder (as payment for harming Bran and summer's bondmate) then tears the Kingslayers throat out.

Jon would have been killed.

That would give Jon the moniker The Kingslayer slayer. Robb sends Theon to teat with his father, sends Jon down to teat with the dornish and Renly. Promising Martell justice for Elia's death, with Greywind in the west and the mad mountain fast on his trail they could have crossed paths and well that's the end of the mountain that rode, a high place in the northern councils and lastly to marry Sansa Stark to Tysten Martell.

I doubt Renly would treat with a bastard and he dies anyways. Given the Sand Snakes, Doran might treat with a bastard, but they're going to stay neutral either way.

Yet before he get's there his reputation comes before him and Martell is expecting something much more then the image that Jon Snow presents. IT's still impressive that this young boy killed the skilled and far famed Kingslayer and with Ghost stalking Jon's heels that might give Martell a little more reason to pay close attention to what Jon has to say. Now at the same time that Jon's down in the south Robb is in the West giving Tywin and his western bannermen hell. Word still hasn't reached the west of Theon's treachery. On his way north Jon get word that Renly is dead and that Loras Tyrell is on his way to highgarden. There also his rep goes before him, LF hasn't gotten there yet so the Rosey slut is still open for marriage. Jon is good at number and having been empowered to speak with his voice he contrives to break the alliance with the Freys(what's 5,000 to 10,000 swords against 80,000 to 100,000 swords and as a bastard the blame can be laid at his feet. All men know that bastards are mistrustful by nature.)THe kings honor stays in tact and Jon has just delivered an alliance that gather's more swords then the alliance that his mother made for him.

Lets be real... even Superman has Kryptonite. The way you tell it, Jon Snow is invincible. He's very unlikely to kill the mountain then make it to Highgarden to treat (as a bastard) with the Tyrells before Littlefinger gets there. The Tyrells to me seem like the Lannisters. I doubt the'd accept it.

His rep as a warrior and administrator not to mention as a closer(a great negotionator) in the mix. There would be no need for the red wedding because Edmure would still have made his blounder and Tywin would have rushed to get to KL. Instead of finding a waiting and helpful Tyrell army they would instead find an hostile tyrell army outside the gates of KL and a very pissed off Stannis on the banks of the Blackwater. This time instead the wolf and rose smash the lion and can either make peace or war on the Stag as they like. Jon has just won the throne for his brother and as his reward has just been given the Title of warden of the North and Robb takes the Iron Throne.

Jon wins the war for Robb? And what possible claim does Robb have to the Iron Throne. That doesn't gel with Robb as a character.

Am I saying it would have gone as smoothly as all that. That the lords would be happy about teating with a bastard but a bastard with a highly respected rep as a warrior and leader of men would go a long way to keeping them respectful and ghost is always there to eat a couple of fingers if anyone gets out of pocket.

I think you're overestimating Jon Snow's abilities. Not to mention I doubt that the other Lords, Knights and commanders are going to look kindly on Jon Snow having his wolf bite off their fingers.

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Jon fights in the battle of whisphering woods. It's Jon and Ghost that cross blades with Jamie Lannister

Or much more likely then your fanfic: Jaime sticks his sword through Jon's neck before moving on towards Robb.

Moreover, If Jon some how kills Jaime then his actions have basically doomed Sansa who is then cruelly executed by Cersei in vengeance for Jaime's death. Furthermore, I highly doubt that an arrogant ass bastard (which very much was before the NW knocked some sense into him) is going to convince Doran and Mace to side with Robb.

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I did say that I doubt that some of it would pan out that way. I am saying that sending Jon south verse Cat might have turned out differently and I already said that Renly was dead by the time he's making his way to his court and that's why he went instead to teat with Mace because this would give the starks a bigger army and more money at their grasp. Also with Jon making the arrangements between house Stark and Tyrell as he's a bastard and treacherous by nature it's not affecting Robb's honor with the Frey's his envoy who was speaking with his own voice is the one who broke it. That way men can't call Robb an oathbreaker and the shame is on Jon's head. I'm speculating that if the direwolf and Rose had gotten into bed together the battle of the blackwater would have been a very different fight. Because while they still would have lost the alliance of house Frey but who needs them when they just got a bigger army thanks to Jon and his political manipulations. Catching Tywin beneath the walls of KL and with no where to run would have been the end of Tywin at least. Stannis might have taken the shore but it would have been the direwolf and rose that took the castle. So they can deal with Stannis as they see fit.

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Jon fights in the battle of whisphering woods. It's Jon and Ghost that cross blades with Jamie Lannister Ghost sensing that Jon's under threat rips Jamies sword arm off from the shoulder (as payment for harming Bran and summer's bondmate) then tears the Kingslayers throat out.

Jaime would cut Jon to pieces before Ghost could even react.

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I did say that I doubt that some of it would pan out that way. I am saying that sending Jon south verse Cat might have turned out differently and I already said that Renly was dead by the time he's making his way to his court and that's why he went instead to teat with Mace because this would give the starks a bigger army and more money at their grasp. Also with Jon making the arrangements between house Stark and Tyrell as he's a bastard and treacherous by nature it's not affecting Robb's honor with the Frey's his envoy who was speaking with his own voice is the one who broke it. That way men can't call Robb an oathbreaker and the shame is on Jon's head. I'm speculating that if the direwolf and Rose had gotten into bed together the battle of the blackwater would have been a very different fight. Because while they still would have lost the alliance of house Frey but who needs them when they just got a bigger army thanks to Jon and his political manipulations. Catching Tywin beneath the walls of KL and with no where to run would have been the end of Tywin at least. Stannis might have taken the shore but it would have been the direwolf and rose that took the castle. So they can deal with Stannis as they see fit.

Why would a High Lord like Mace Tyrell treat with a bastard? More importantly why would he back the side that has no interest in the Iron Throne.

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I did say that I doubt that some of it would pan out that way. I am saying that sending Jon south verse Cat might have turned out differently and I already said that Renly was dead by the time he's making his way to his court and that's why he went instead to teat with Mace because this would give the starks a bigger army and more money at their grasp. Also with Jon making the arrangements between house Stark and Tyrell as he's a bastard and treacherous by nature it's not affecting Robb's honor with the Frey's his envoy who was speaking with his own voice is the one who broke it. That way men can't call Robb an oathbreaker and the shame is on Jon's head.

Jon would hardly be able to convince Mace to side with Robb, especially in a contest between manipulation/diplomacy between him and Littlefinger. Seriously, Jon had difficulty getting some of his brothers in the NW to listen to him (and that is even after he has matured as an individual) thus there is no way he convinces Mace Tyrell to listen to him (especially has he would still be the same arrogant brat he was in AGOT).

Moreover, even if Jon arranges the deal (unlikely) Robb would still be an oathbreaker if he agreed to marry Margaery in how he is the one with the final say.

Simply, why not just argue that Jon would fly down to KL and punch Joffrey in the face while scooping Ned, Sansa, and Arya and taking them all to Winterfell for a dance party.

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I did say that I doubt that some of it would pan out that way. I am saying that sending Jon south verse Cat might have turned out differently and I already said that Renly was dead by the time he's making his way to his court and that's why he went instead to teat with Mace because this would give the starks a bigger army and more money at their grasp. Also with Jon making the arrangements between house Stark and Tyrell as he's a bastard and treacherous by nature it's not affecting Robb's honor with the Frey's his envoy who was speaking with his own voice is the one who broke it. That way men can't call Robb an oathbreaker and the shame is on Jon's head. I'm speculating that if the direwolf and Rose had gotten into bed together the battle of the blackwater would have been a very different fight. Because while they still would have lost the alliance of house Frey but who needs them when they just got a bigger army thanks to Jon and his political manipulations. Catching Tywin beneath the walls of KL and with no where to run would have been the end of Tywin at least. Stannis might have taken the shore but it would have been the direwolf and rose that took the castle. So they can deal with Stannis as they see fit.

1) Cat was a great negotiator.

2) The Tyrells won't treat with a bastard.

3) Mace would only join Robb if he's going for the Iron Throne.

4) Yes it would. Robb would have to make the final decision to break his alliance with the Freys.

5) Jon Snow isn't Varys. Jon Snow isn't Littlefinger. I think you're greatly overestimating Jon Snow's abilities. Jon Snow knows nothing.

6) That's very unlikely. Stannis would get there first. Of course in this fanfic scenario, the Starks outnumber him, but I can't see Robb (or Jon for that matter) doing something that dishonorable.

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I said that Littlefinger hadn't gotten to Highgarden as of yet. I said that because on his way north to get back to Robb he learns of Renly and his death that Marg is free to wed and that Highgarden hasn't gone over to stannis nor the lannisters as of yet.

I think that Jon might not be a deciding factor or anything I just think that if Jon had been at Robb's side there wouldn't have been as many political mistakes made. That he could have been used in places where Robb made some major political mistakes and as Jon's a bastard he had the unique position of being of the kings blood but as he's cant inherit he would make a shitty hostage. Yet Robb knows that Jon is smart, is no craven and that he would fall Robb to the dark side of he moon if need be. That Jon is loyal. That he would carry out Robbs missions or taskes as Robb does because they were raised by the same man and have similar values. That Jon who seems like the more level headed of the two brothers could have acted as a stabilizing force for his more reckless and impulsive brother. That with the two brothers working to gether the war of the five kings might have had a very different outcome.

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I said that Littlefinger hadn't gotten to Highgarden as of yet. I said that because on his way north to get back to Robb he learns of Renly and his death that Marg is free to wed and that Highgarden hasn't gone over to stannis nor the lannisters as of yet.

I think that Jon might not be a deciding factor or anything I just think that if Jon had been at Robb's side there wouldn't have been as many political mistakes made. That he could have been used in places where Robb made some major political mistakes and as Jon's a bastard he had the unique position of being of the kings blood but as he's cant inherit he would make a shitty hostage. Yet Robb knows that Jon is smart, is no craven and that he would fall Robb to the dark side of he moon if need be. That Jon is loyal. That he would carry out Robbs missions or taskes as Robb does because they were raised by the same man and have similar values. That Jon who seems like the more level headed of the two brothers could have acted as a stabilizing force for his more reckless and impulsive brother. That with the two brothers working to gether the war of the five kings might have had a very different outcome.

1) Why would LF take that long? Why would LF still not be in Highgarden with Jon making it Dorne to treat with the Martells, marching with Dornish troops all the way to the Riverlands to capture Gregor Clegane and then all the way back to Highgarden?

2) Most highlords are unlikely to treat with a bastard.

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I said that Littlefinger hadn't gotten to Highgarden as of yet. I said that because on his way north to get back to Robb he learns of Renly and his death that Marg is free to wed and that Highgarden hasn't gone over to stannis nor the lannisters as of yet.

How does Jon get there before LF? Moreover, where is coming from that he is on his way North? Why does Mace give a shit about what this uppity bastard has to say to him?

That Jon who seems like the more level headed of the two brothers could have acted as a stabilizing force for his more reckless and impulsive brother.

Jon performs numerous reckless and impulsive actions (attacking Thorne, attempting to desert the NW, deciding to march on WF) simply I doubt his "level headedness" would be that influential.

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The only real difference I could see Jon Snow making is in the matter of an heir. Once Bran and Rickon 'die', and Robb needs an heir, he can enact his 'legitimize Jon Snow' plan without any delay, and square that away. What's more, if he was particularly ambitious, he could send Jon ahead into the Neck rather than have him at the wedding (all your treasures in one place rule he was talking about), which would definitely foul up the Red Wedding and the Boltons.


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I added Jon killing Jamie because that would affect what the lannisters would do, would change the way that men would look at Ned Starks bastard and give him a little more presitage to his name. Maybe she was but she couldn't forge an alliance with Renly nor with Stannis. The former was killed by the latter and the latter doesn't bend. SO that's no fault of Stannis. Someone mentions that the battle of the camps and whisphering woods would have been a different battle with 2 wolves there instead of just Grey Wind. IT's possible that Jamie is torn to pieces by a combined attack by the wolves together.

Even one has an over inflated insense of what the Tyrell would and wouldn't do, they are only in charge of Highgarden because the steward at the time had the good sense to yield the castle. The way the florents talk the Tyrells claim the highgarden seems to come for a claim from the wrong side of the blanket as the gardener king didn't mind where he stuck his dick and the true heir to the Reach are the florents. IF they hadn't backed the right horse in the conquest they would still be steward to the Florents. Getting a stark to marry one of them would be one the greatest coups of all time for that family if the rose slut couldn't marry into the iron throne then why not the Starks(whom unlike any other house in westeros besides the daynes are the unquestioned rulers of their domain and have been since the first men had rulers in the North, they may have been threatned and war has come to the north but the starks have endured. There have been no major regime changes in the north until now. So if they have to teat a bastard whom may or may not have been legitimized I still don't see the big deal. Because if this is a real world scenario then Jon being a bastard would be no big deal. James Stuward had so many bastards that if was hard to keep them all straight, yet Mary queen of scots raised her unlegitamized bastard brother James into her councils and he was one of her most powerful bannerman because of the titles and lands that their father had left him.

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I think there are a lot of assumptions about what Jon could really accomplish that are unsupported. The problem with the Highgarden / North alliance is that they had incompatible goals. Tyrell wanted to rule all of Westeros; Robb wanted to basically sever the kingdom in half and rule only the half that didn't have the Reach in it. Meanwhile, Lannister offered Tyrell the whole kingdom in exchange for their service in the war against Stannis.

There's really no way that any negotiator could have sold Tyrell on an alliance with the North. Sending Jon to Renly in place of Catelyn would have changed nothing. I'm not bashing Jon here, I just don't think that there is a good argument for the Reach siding with the northmen against Stannis and Joffrey. It would have been great for Robb but for the Tyrells it would bascally be a boondoggle that would actively work against their own interests. A lot of people tend to forget about that side of things -- alliances are a two-way street, and if one ally is contributing 20x as much as the other then that ally should be getting something really, really good... and there was nothing that Robb could give the Tyrells other than a divided kingdom and a hard fight against two or three other major houses, a prize that the Tyrells have never even once expressed interest in.

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Jon would have already been in the south teating with Doran Martell about his forces and marriage between their houses Sansa and his son.

Plus Jon very well married on of the sand snakes. Part of the price of Martell doing nothing and he might get a legit sand snake in the package

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Remember that Jon was ready to forsake his vows and rush to Winterfell for Arya. Arya is his weak spot and he is as governed by his emotions as Catelyn was governed by hers. I think that he would actually agree with Cat's decision to release Jaime even if it was the wrong decision.

Nah. I think he would have to logically agree with Robb that that wasn't really an option. It's just Ramsay sent him the most unspeakably horrifying letter possible, which would incite anyone into rage.

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The only real difference I could see Jon Snow making is in the matter of an heir. Once Bran and Rickon 'die', and Robb needs an heir, he can enact his 'legitimize Jon Snow' plan without any delay, and square that away. What's more, if he was particularly ambitious, he could send Jon ahead into the Neck rather than have him at the wedding (all your treasures in one place rule he was talking about), which would definitely foul up the Red Wedding and the Boltons.

I concur. Jon would be left with a shattered army and would have to find a way to fix Robb's massive screw up. Or else bend the knee.

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I added Jon killing Jamie because that would affect what the lannisters would do, would change the way that men would look at Ned Starks bastard and give him a little more presitage to his name. Maybe she was but she couldn't forge an alliance with Renly nor with Stannis. The former was killed by the latter and the latter doesn't bend. SO that's no fault of Stannis. Someone mentions that the battle of the camps and whisphering woods would have been a different battle with 2 wolves there instead of just Grey Wind. IT's possible that Jamie is torn to pieces by a combined attack by the wolves together.

Even one has an over inflated insense of what the Tyrell would and wouldn't do, they are only in charge of Highgarden because the steward at the time had the good sense to yield the castle. The way the florents talk the Tyrells claim the highgarden seems to come for a claim from the wrong side of the blanket as the gardener king didn't mind where he stuck his dick and the true heir to the Reach are the florents. IF they hadn't backed the right horse in the conquest they would still be steward to the Florents. Getting a stark to marry one of them would be one the greatest coups of all time for that family if the rose slut couldn't marry into the iron throne then why not the Starks(whom unlike any other house in westeros besides the daynes are the unquestioned rulers of their domain and have been since the first men had rulers in the North, they may have been threatned and war has come to the north but the starks have endured. There have been no major regime changes in the north until now. So if they have to teat a bastard whom may or may not have been legitimized I still don't see the big deal. Because if this is a real world scenario then Jon being a bastard would be no big deal. James Stuward had so many bastards that if was hard to keep them all straight, yet Mary queen of scots raised her unlegitamized bastard brother James into her councils and he was one of her most powerful bannerman because of the titles and lands that their father had left him.

Why do you keep calling Margaery the Rose slut? And aside from the Greyjoys, Tyrells and Tullys, the other Great Houses are clearly the rulers of their domains.

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