Stannis taking Kings Landing

[Captain of the Guard]

If you were Stannis Baratheon after the Battle of the Blackwater, what would you do differently to take Kings Landing if you had your time again?

[Boarsbane]

-Try to win the Tyrells over with a marriage alliance

-Bring Melisandre along

-Put Davos in command of my fleet instead of Ser Imry Florent

[Sullen]

-Try to win the Tyrells over with a marriage alliance

No way that ever works.

The Tyrells hate Stannis.

I'd probably send in more scouts after my first scouting party disappears, no way I'm going in blind.

[GallowsKnight]

Stannis' biggest mistake was delaying at Storm's End. He shouldn't have given Penrose two weeks. Either accept his challenge to combat via champion (which I believe Davos correctly assessed as Penrose trying to find an honourable way to die/surrrender) or kill him via Melissandre. Then strike rapidly at Kingslanding.

Bring Melissandre. Put her on Fury. I don't think she'd be able to stop the Wildfire. But she's proven to able to see threats directly to herself in the Fires. If she's at the tip of the attack she might be able to forsee the trap. I'd actually leave Imry Florent in command for political reasons or make him second in command to Lord Velaryon (as reward for his loyalty). Also send in the pirates first as they're far more expendable.

I'd also spend more time routing out and killing all of the Mountain Clans. That way I can have better view of the battle. If there's any hint of the Tyrells/Tywin arriving then I don't committ to battle. Rather wait. As with ~20 well rested cavalry I've still got an excellent chance of beating them.

[RoamingRonin]

Could he have taken Tywin in the field?

[Boarsbane]

Could he have taken Tywin in the field?

Not if Tywin had the Tyrells.

[GallowsKnight]

Could he have taken Tywin in the field?

Not if Tywin had the Tyrells.

I'm not saying it's certain. But Stannis had ~20k soldiers, all of whom were Knights and mounted men at arms. Far more heavy cavalry than either Tywin or the Tyrells. Furthermore they'd been waiting several days for the fleet to arrive so they were well rested. Whereas the forces of Tywin and the Tyrells had been forced marched.

On top of this the majority of the Tyrell forces have mixed loyalties. They're Stormlands infantry loyal to Lords following Stannis or they're Reachmen loyal to those Reach Houses (quite a few) that defected to Stannis. If there is any sign of weakness on the Tyrell side they'll surrender/turncoat.

The trick of both the Wildfire and Renly's ghost would not have a chance to be played in my scenario. So Stannis' side's morale is intact.

There's a certain point where having superior numbers matter less. If Stannis could smash part of Tywin's host enough for them to route, he's almost beaten the Tyrell without engaging.

Edit: The Caveat is that the loyalty issues swings the other way. If Stannis delayed he might find his Lords conspiring against him.

[E-Ro]

Could he have taken Tywin in the field?

Yes. And rather easily to be honest. Tywins army in got is 20,000 men strong. This is BEFORE the battle of the green fork, numerous forced marches through hostile territory, and the bloody forge. By the time he takes on Stans 20,000 stormlords and reachmen(the best of the stormlands and the reach, heavy horse, knights, the nobility) he would have less then 20,000 men. Probably more like 18,000 and that may not seem like much, but it is when your enemies force is of higher quality then yours. And Stannis is the better field commander.

What Stannis needed was the reach. Not the tyrells, the REACH. Randyle tarly saved the tyrells asses. The men Stannis sent to scoop up the reach and stormland infantry would have gotten their support for stannis had tarly not reacted so decisively.

[Boarsbane]

I'm not saying it's certain. But Stannis had ~20k soldiers, all of whom were Knights and mounted men at arms. Far more heavy cavalry than either Tywin or the Tyrells. Furthermore they'd been waiting several days for the fleet to arrive so they were well rested. Whereas the forces of Tywin and the Tyrells had been forced marched.

On top of this the majority of the Tyrell forces have mixed loyalties. They're Stormlands infantry loyal to Lords following Stannis or they're Reachmen loyal to those Reach Houses (quite a few) that defected to Stannis. If there is any sign of weakness on the Tyrell side they'll surrender/turncoat.

The trick of both the Wildfire and Renly's ghost would not have a chance to be played in my scenario. So Stannis' side's morale is intact.

There's a certain point where having superior numbers matter less. If Stannis could smash part of Tywin's host enough for them to route, he's almost beaten the Tyrell without engaging.

Edit: The Caveat is that the loyalty issues swings the other way. If Stannis delayed he might find his Lords conspiring against him.

The numbers are too much in Tywin's favor, he has his 20,000 and Mace's 80,000, plus the defenders of King's Landing might even join into take Stannis from behind when he turn to face Tywin. I don't care how good of a tactician people think Stannis is, those are overwhelming numbers. If he can't at least get the Tyrells to stay neutral he loses regardless of the Wildfire.

[E-Ro]

The numbers are too much in Tywin's favor, he has his 20,000 and Mace's 80,000, plus the defenders of King's Landing might even join into take Stannis from behind when he turn to face Tywin. I don't care how good of a tactician people think Stannis is, those are overwhelming numbers. If he can't at least get the Tyrells to stay neutral he loses regardless of the Wildfire.

If tywin has mace it does get more difficult. But not impossible, If stannis has 20,000 men, and the tyrells and tywin have 100,000 all together(they would have slightly less then that, no way in hell tywin still has 20,000 men, not after all the fighting his army has been through, not to mention all those desertions) anyway, thats a 5 times numerical superiority, battles in real life where won with those odds. Montisgard, gaugamela, etc.

Also, its not like Stannis would be FORCED to give battle to a superior force, he could simply wait for them to run out of food. Such a large army simply cannot exist for long, not in medieval times. It is not feasible. Eventually they are going to have to send men home, and if they try to keep them with less and less food they will desert, or even riot.

[Boarsbane]

If tywin has mace it does get more difficult. But not impossible, If stannis has 20,000 men, and the tyrells and tywin have 100,000 all together(they would have slightly less then that, no way in hell tywin still has 20,000 men, not after all the fighting his army has been through, not to mention all those desertions) anyway, thats a 5 times numerical superiority, battles in real life where won with those odds. Montisgard, gaugamela, etc.

If they put Mace Tyrell in charge I would give him a chance, but against Tywin Lannister and Randyll Tarly, I can't see it.

[RoamingRonin]

Yes. And rather easily to be honest. Tywins army in got is 20,000 men strong. This is BEFORE the battle of the green fork, numerous forced marches through hostile territory, and the bloody forge. By the time he takes on Stans 20,000 stormlords and reachmen(the best of the stormlands and the reach, heavy horse, knights, the nobility) he would have less then 20,000 men. Probably more like 18,000 and that may not seem like much, but it is when your enemies force is of higher quality then yours. And Stannis is the better field commander.

What Stannis needed was the reach. Not the tyrells, the REACH. Randyle tarly saved the tyrells asses. The men Stannis sent to scoop up the reach and stormland infantry would have gotten their support for stannis had tarly not reacted so decisively.

The key to victory would be killing Tywin before the Tyrells could merge their armies. The Tyrells and their bannermen might always resent Stannis for Renly but that's fine. With Tywin out of the picture, the Lannisters would be doomed and the Tyrells have Mace. Killing Tywin that early might prevent the Red Wedding which means Robb would still be alive and in the field.

Basically, he would need to kill Tywin ASAP.

[GallowsKnight]

The numbers are too much in Tywin's favor, he has his 20,000 and Mace's 80,000, plus the defenders of King's Landing might even join into take Stannis from behind when he turn to face Tywin. I don't care how good of a tactician people think Stannis is, those are overwhelming numbers. If he can't at least get the Tyrells to stay neutral he loses regardless of the Wildfire.

I not proposing Stannis engages 100k men beneath the walls of Kingslanding. That would be stupid.

I'm suggesting maybe he hears of the approaching armies, takes a page from Robert's book and goes Summerhall on Tywin. His superior 20k men engaging Tywins in the Kingswood before they can join with the Tyrells.

Then with Tywin's head on a spike and a glowing sword in the other hand, he turns to the Tyrells. Now suddenly a lot of those footsoldiers are remembering that Stannis' is their liege lord or their lord fights for Stannis.

Does Mace Tyrell take the risk? Or does he bend the knee and assist in the taking of Kingslanding to save his skin?

[Light a wight tonight]

I'd tell Renly that we need to deal with the Lannisters before settling which of us is to take the Iron Throne. That way the Tyrells don't turn cloak and join Tywin and the Brothers Baratheon take KL and defeat Tywin in the field.

Then we do the shadow baby thing. Heh.

[Boarsbane]

I not proposing Stannis engages 100k men beneath the walls of Kingslanding. That would be stupid.

I'm suggesting maybe he hears of the approaching armies, takes a page from Robert's book and goes Summerhall on Tywin. His superior 20k men engaging Tywins in the Kingswood before they can join with the Tyrells.

Then with Tywin's head on a spike and a glowing sword in the other hand, he turns to the Tyrells. Now suddenly a lot of those footsoldiers are remembering that Stannis' is their liege lord or their lord fights for Stannis.

Does Mace Tyrell take the risk? Or does he bend the knee and assist in the taking of Kingslanding to save his skin?

I'm pretty sure Tywin and Mace linked up in the Riverlands and that he sent some of his bannerman to go get Tywin.

[E-Ro]

If they put Mace Tyrell in charge I would give him a chance, but against Tywin Lannister and Randyll Tarly, I can't see it.

well it wouldn't be easy, but if you get into a pitched battle with an enemy that outnumbers you by so much and you dont have some sort of trump card you deserve to lose. I cant see Stannis risking it right away. More likely he bides his time, lets the tyrells and lannisters come to him. Time would be on his side, the lannisters and tyrells have to worry about feeding their huge army, and they have to worry about the northerners and riverlords. Any number of scenarios are possible, and Stannis is a good enough leader to not simply charge at a huge army the first chance he gets. He can afford to play it safe, keep sending out letters about the incest, ravens to the vale, etc. He would have a strong power base in the stormlands from which to do all this.

The key to victory would be killing Tywin before the Tyrells could merge their armies. The Tyrells and their bannermen might always resent Stannis for Renly but that's fine. With Tywin out of the picture, the Lannisters would be doomed and the Tyrells have Mace. Killing Tywin that early might prevent the Red Wedding which means Robb would still be alive and in the field.

Basically, he would need to kill Tywin ASAP.

Yeah, I agree killing tywin asap would be a huge boon. But I dont think its the only way for Stannis to win if he has those 20,000 men.

[Belisarius09]

Double Threads? o.O

1. Anyways, first thing I would have done differently Is change up the formation of the fleet. I'd have the pirates lead the assault at the front of the formation.

2. Secondly, I wouldn't have put all my apples into one basket, meaning I wouldn't have committed my entire fleet all at the same time. There was never any question Stannis would defeat the meager Royal Fleet that opposed him. I would have attacked in waves, and simultaneously hit at different points of the city's defenses. Spread the defenders out. You have the numbers to fight at numerous different points, the defenders didn't. Not only would this have created more opportunities to break through the defense (and really you just need 1 breach and an entire wall becomes an untenable defensive position, think about the Ottomons finding 1 unlocked gate in the second wall in the siege of Constantinople, and the defense collapsed instantly, whereas the first wall had held out for weeks). In addition to increasing the opportunity/reward, spreading out your assault safeguards you from unseen contingencies (like the wildfire).

3. I'd still leave Melisandre behind. You don't need to increase the cities determination to resist you by threatening religious persecution. Just think about it, how heated a conversation can get with a deeply religious person, they can become irrational if you suggest anything contrary to their beliefs.

4. Since the fleet is broken up into waves, and their own independent and separate assaults at different points of the city's defenses, you can still reward Florent by giving him command of one area, while you appoint more capable commanders to other assault groups. Your entire assault isn't sabotaged by an incompetent commander. Instead, he can only screw up one assault. If one assault group fails, there's still a chance one of the others might succeed.

The key is for these different attacks to occur at the same time. Otherwise you don't succeed in spreading the defenders out, and you only waste resources assaulting fresh, undamaged defenses. (Historically, think of the Germans siege of the Americans at Bastogne. They were clever to attack from different directions, but they didn't time their attacks, so the Americans could regroup and face each individual assault in turn, effectively negating the Germans' numerical superiority.)

Additionally, splitting up the attack allows you to withdraw with more of your forces intact once Tywinn and the Tyrells flank you, as opposed to having your entire force in one group. Think of Robb Stark's defeat of Jaime Lannister's host at Riverrun. Having his host split up into 3 different camps made them less powerful than one united force, but it ended up being a godsend, because Robb could only take 1 camp by surprise. The second camp was alerted, and able to put up a fight (even though they lost) and the third camp was able to withdraw w/o suffering heavy losses, to return to fight another day.

[GallowsKnight]

I'm pretty sure Tywin and Mace linked up in the Riverlands and that he sent some of his bannerman to go get Tywin.

The Wiki says they combined their armies under the cover of the Kingswood. But if there's a quote to the otherwise I'll change my opinion.

[Boarsbane]

well it wouldn't be easy, but if you get into a pitched battle with an enemy that outnumbers you by so much and you dont have some sort of trump card you deserve to lose. I cant see Stannis risking it right away. More likely he bides his time, lets the tyrells and lannisters come to him. Time would be on his side, the lannisters and tyrells have to worry about feeding their huge army, and they have to worry about the northerners and riverlords. Any number of scenarios are possible, and Stannis is a good enough leader to not simply charge at a huge army the first chance he gets. He can afford to play it safe, keep sending out letters about the incest, ravens to the vale, etc. He would have a strong power base in the stormlands from which to do all this.

I agree. He would be smart to try and evade The Lannister and Tyrell army while Robb wreaks havoc in the West, maybe send some raiding parties into the Reach to cause trouble, and try to make an alliance with the Vale, although Lysa isn't likely to join him.

[Boarsbane]

The Wiki says they combined their armies under the cover of the Kingswood. But if there's a quote to the otherwise I'll change my opinion.

The Wiki also says that they merged in at Tumbler's Fall, a town in the Riverlands. I don't remember exactly what the books says but Mathis Rowan and Randyll Tarly would be with Tywin regardless so Stannis would have to deal with them too.