A Scholarly Analysis of Lightbringer

[broshi91]

Hi everyone, in this thread i will be doing an analysis on the prophetic coming of the one, the religion that surrounds it, and the sword "Lightbringer". I hope you guys enjoy reading about it as much as i enjoyed thinking about it and writing it!

History

1. History of Westeros is one of successive invasion of people who held technologically superior weapons over the native inhabitants.

CotF(Dragonglass) -> First Men(Bronze) -> Andals(Steel) -> Targaryens(Dragons/Valryan Steel).

The story of the Others fit in somewhere between First Men and Andals. Therefore, it is reasonable for us to assume that there were no Steel during the Battle for the Dawn.

2. The story of the Long Night has been translated and passed down for thousands of years(a good portion of which was passed down in oral tradition.)

Why is this important you might ask? The books that Samwise Gamgee dig out from the libraries are all written anywhere from last 5000 years and not before. How can i claim this you may ask? The existence of the word "Dragon". While the word Steel was known since the Andal invasion(6000 years ago), the world of Dragon came about with the rise of Valryan Freehold. The era that the Last Hero lived in did not have steel, nor dragons.

3. The Story of Azor Ahai is a bastardized version of the Last Hero

The story of Azor Ahai and the Last Hero has many similarities, but we know Azor Ahai isn't the original. The Others invaded Westeros, not Asshai. This story of Azor Ahai is also at least 4000 years younger than the story of the Last Hero. Only with the invasion of the Andals could the story of the Last Hero have traveled to Asshai with the First Men having no way to cross the Narrow Sea. (You might be wondering where I am getting the idea that First Men couldnt cross the sea, I will say that i dont have solid, direct evidence, but the fact that the superior technology that is steel was unknown to First Men really makes a strong argument that the two continents had little to no contact until the invasion of Andals.)

Since the First Men wrote runes and CotF didnt even have a writing system, the story of the Last Hero passed down in Oral tradition most likely. Writings came with the Andals and their Seven Gods

Prophesies

1. The Return of the King(AKA the Last Hero/Azor Ahai)

The Communists of Asshai believes in the return of Azor Ahai who will save them from the Others. He will wield a flaming sword that will cause Others to flee before him.

The Western Pigs believes that the secret to defeating the Others is with the sword of the Last Hero.

Possiblities

1. Valryan Steel

Valryan Steel disqualifies as the drills that will pierce the heaven, mostly because it did not exist in Westeros during the time of Long Night. We have to remember that the First Men and CotF had only Bronze and Obsidian weapons. The Greatsword Ice of the Starks only came about sometime in the last 5000 years that Valryan Freehold existed.

2. Obsidian

Unlikely as well, as CotF would have regarded the Others has nuisance rather than a genuine threat considering that the CotF had access to Obsidian. The Long Night would have been a really short night.

3. Bronze

Same as above, not to mention the Others fight with Lord Royce quickly proves that whatever the Others have can defeat Steel, and thus Bronze would be nothing special.

Personal Analysis and my own prediction

You will have noticed that I did not mention the sword Dawn, and thats because I think Dawn IS the Lightbringer.

In order for Dawn = Lightbringer, two hard fact has to be established.

1. Daynes had to be around the Long Night

2. Dawn had to exist around the Long Night

First

1. Daynes had to be around the Long Night

My attempt to prove their existence will be full of roundabout evidence, but here goes.

1. Brans Greendream of Weirwood in Winterfell

In one of the scenes of Bran's dream we see a bearded men with a white haired women who is holding a bronze sickle. There is also a captive whom they proceed to kill.

A quick thoughtless glance at this passage and one might assume that it is a meaningless dream, but i disagree. There are two very important hints buried here.

1. White haired women

2. Bronze sickle

One might assume that the white haired women is a Targaryen, but i disagree. We must look at the significance of Bronze sickle. Why was it not a Steel Sickle or Iron Sickle?

I think its because this was prior to Andal Invasion and they only had Bronze weapons.

However, you might argue that Targaryens were not around during the Last Night. Obviously the white haired women is not a Targaryen, but a member of the house of Dayne.

Readers may remember that the Last Hero carried a magical sword, well where is supposed to go after the Others are gone? in to a black hole? No. It has been passed down from family to family and it has been in Westeros, right under our very little nose.

Just look at the names that House Dayne uses, no other house in Westeros uses such title of "Sword of the Morning" and name their sword "Dawn".

Dawn is unique from Bronze and Obsidian, not to mention it has been with Dayne in Westeros for Ten thousand years.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Dayne#History

Closing remarks(opinions)

I think the Scene with the bearded men and white haired women is from the time of the Night's King. I thought that it might be the Nights King and his Other Wife, but it makes more sense if its Night's King being executed by a Dayne and Stark.

The Blue eyed King who casts no shadow while holding a red sword is Jon Snow, who becomes the King of the Others when Melisandre gives him the kiss. I think the ability to resurrect the dead the comes with the Red Priest is the same vein as the Others raising wights.

(This is my first post, and i started and finished reading the entire series over January and Febuary, so if some of the things i say seem unoriginal and has been said before on the forum, i apologize!)

[Fire Eater]

Welcome to the forum. :cheers:

2. The story of the Long Night has been translated and passed down for thousands of years(a good portion of which was passed down in oral tradition.)

Why is this important you might ask? The books that Samwise Gamgee dig out from the libraries are all written anywhere from last 5000 years and not before. How can i claim this you may ask? The existence of the word "Dragon". While the word Steel was known since the Andal invasion(6000 years ago), the world of Dragon came about with the rise of Valryan Freehold. The era that the Last Hero lived in did not have steel, nor dragons.

GRRM said dragons once lived all over the world, and the Valyrians didn't invent dragons but found them in the Fourteen Fires. I agree that they didn't have steel, but dragons have been around a long time.

3. The Story of Azor Ahai is a bastardized version of the Last Hero

The story of Azor Ahai and the Last Hero has many similarities, but we know Azor Ahai isn't the original. The Others invaded Westeros, not Asshai. This story of Azor Ahai is also at least 4000 years younger than the story of the Last Hero. Only with the invasion of the Andals could the story of the Last Hero have traveled to Asshai with the First Men having no way to cross the Narrow Sea. (You might be wondering where I am getting the idea that First Men couldnt cross the sea, I will say that i dont have solid, direct evidence, but the fact that the superior technology that is steel was unknown to First Men really makes a strong argument that the two continents had little to no contact until the invasion of Andals.)

I agree that the story of AA is an Asshai/Easternized version of the last hero.

Personal Analysis and my own prediction

You will have noticed that I did not mention the sword Dawn, and thats because I think Dawn IS the Lightbringer.

In order for Dawn = Lightbringer, two hard fact has to be established.

1. Daynes had to be around the Long Night

2. Dawn had to exist around the Long Night

First

1. Daynes had to be around the Long Night

My attempt to prove their existence will be full of roundabout evidence, but here goes.

1. Brans Greendream of Weirwood in Winterfell

In one of the scenes of Bran's dream we see a bearded men with a white haired women who is holding a bronze sickle. There is also a captive whom they proceed to kill.

A quick thoughtless glance at this passage and one might assume that it is a meaningless dream, but i disagree. There are two very important hints buried here.

1. White haired women

2. Bronze sickle

One might assume that the white haired women is a Targaryen, but i disagree. We must look at the significance of Bronze sickle. Why was it not a Steel Sickle or Iron Sickle?

I think its because this was prior to Andal Invasion and they only had Bronze weapons.

However, you might argue that Targaryens were not around during the Last Night. Obviously the white haired women is not a Targaryen, but a member of the house of Dayne.

I think it is more evident that the woman was white-haired because she was old. Also, I don't think Dawn is Lightbringer. Everyone believes Lightbringer to be a sword, so I think it isn't a sword. It being sword could be a metaphor just like the tale of Rodrik Stark winning a wrestling match with the Ironborn being a metaphor for Rodrik wrestling Bear Island from them in a war, and Baelor going into a pit of vipers to rescue the Dragonknight being a metaphor Baelor going to Dorne. I think LB could possibly have been a dragon given the description associated with fire and heat.

My personal crackpot is that last hero/AA was the first dragonrider. He was a warg, and that allowed him to bond with the dragon.

Closing remarks(opinions)

I think the Scene with the bearded men and white haired women is from the time of the Night's King. I thought that it might be the Nights King and his Other Wife, but it makes more sense if its Night's King being executed by a Dayne and Stark.

I think it is actually a Brandon Stark being executed. The Daynes are far south in Dorne, and I don't know what would bring them up North. I think Bran's vision is long after the Night's King.

The Blue eyed King who casts no shadow while holding a red sword is Jon Snow, who becomes the King of the Others when Melisandre gives him the kiss. I think the ability to resurrect the dead the comes with the Red Priest is the same vein as the Others raising wights.

The blue-eyed king holding a red sword and casts no shadow is clearly Stannis. Jon doesn't have blue eyes, but grey eyes while Stannis has blue eyes like the rest of the Baratheons. Why would Mel have Jon become the King of the Others when she is fighting against them? I don't see any clues pointing to JOn as the King of the Others, especially when he has not had contact with at least one. I don't see foreshadowing pointing to Mel resurrecting Jon but BR and Bran.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The blue-eyed king holding a red sword and casts no shadow is clearly Stannis. Jon doesn't have blue eyes, but grey eyes while Stannis has blue eyes like the rest of the Baratheons. Why would Mel have Jon become the King of the Others when she is fighting against them? I don't see any clues pointing to JOn as the King of the Others, especially when he has not had contact with at least one. I don't see foreshadowing pointing to Mel resurrecting Jon but BR and Bran.

Personally, for me, that prophecy usually points to Stannis being the Night's King. But that's just my personal crackpot.

Other than that, great thread! Welcome and whilst I don't agree with your take on it, your arguments are well put. :cheers:

[yolkboy]

Welcome to the forums, and a good post! :D

The Last Hero carried a sword made of dragonsteel (the one discussion you skirted around).

Azor Ahai's blade was steel. (see Legend of Lightbringer).

Given true steel wasn't invented, as you point out, the only other steel we know was around then was dragonsteel.

To me, a huge clue that TLH=AA.

[Kienn]

Random references are just distracting from your point - lose Samwise gamgee and the communist stuff

[Fire Eater]

Personally, for me, that prophecy usually points to Stannis being the Night's King. But that's just my personal crackpot.

I believe Stannis is the parallel to the Night's King as well.

[Lyse Stark]

I believe Stannis is the parallel to the Night's King as well.

I agree, I think that Stannis will become a villain as well.

[Don Roberto]

Timelines "thosends of years old" are highly doubtable. There's no way to say that the Last Hero appeared before Azor Ahai because one is said to have happened 6000 years ago while the other only 2000. It's even impossible to know if there was ever a person later identified as Last Hero/Azor Ahai, or if these were invented tales.

[broshi91]

Just to clarify some things, I think the story of the Last Hero is the one and the same as Azor Ahai. Except that the story of Azor Ahai is a corrupted version due to it being travelled to the other side of the world.

I think it is actually a Brandon Stark being executed. The Daynes are far south in Dorne, and I don't know what would bring them up North. I think Bran's vision is long after the Night's King.

I completely disagree. Brandon Stark was strangled, not cut at the neck. Im pretty sure that Daynes have Targaryen features and have been said to be around since the first men(not to mention does not share Rhoynish looks). If my assumption is correct, the white haired women with bronze sickle is a member of Dayne, going back to the era of the Night's King. Its possible that Dayne family moved South at some point, but i would have to assume that this women is a Dayne family.

The Last Hero carried a sword made of dragonsteel

Yes, this is the story on the book in the Nightwatch castle, BUT the book is a translation from the language of the first men, NOT a first hand account of the Last Hero. Chances are it is a third hand account and inaccurate due to translations. "Dragonsteel" is an attempt at translation by Andals.

I originally didnt think that Lightbringer was a sword, but if it was anything else, why do they mention a sword? Its true, that the white women from Bran's dream could have been old. She could also have been a Targaryen, but why lack of, or too much detail? Bran says she has a white hair, not shes an old women. Bran says she has a Bronze sickle, not steel, or just sickle. What other details do we have? We have been told that Daynes are a old family dating back to first men. We are also told that Dawn is forged from mysterious material from a meteor. A women with Dayne looks as well as a bronze sickle is seen in front of a weirdwood tree. I dont think my theory is that crazy.

[J. Stargaryen]

Just to clarify some things, I think the story of the Last Hero is the one and the same as Azor Ahai. Except that the story of Azor Ahai is a corrupted version due to it being travelled to the other side of the world.

I completely disagree. Brandon Stark was strangled, not cut at the neck. Im pretty sure that Daynes have Targaryen features and have been said to be around since the first men(not to mention does not share Rhoynish looks). If my assumption is correct, the white haired women with bronze sickle is a member of Dayne, going back to the era of the Night's King. Its possible that Dayne family moved South at some point, but i would have to assume that this women is a Dayne family.

Yes, this is the story on the book in the Nightwatch castle, BUT the book is a translation from the language of the first men, NOT a first hand account of the Last Hero. Chances are it is a third hand account and inaccurate due to translations. "Dragonsteel" is an attempt at translation by Andals.

I originally didnt think that Lightbringer was a sword, but if it was anything else, why do they mention a sword? Its true, that the white women from Bran's dream could have been old. She could also have been a Targaryen, but why lack of, or too much detail? Bran says she has a white hair, not shes an old women. Bran says she has a Bronze sickle, not steel, or just sickle. What other details do we have? We have been told that Daynes are a old family dating back to first men. We are also told that Dawn is forged from mysterious material from a meteor. A women with Dayne looks as well as a bronze sickle is seen in front of a weirdwood tree. I dont think my theory is that crazy.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

It's not that it's crazy, it's just probably not the best explanation. Btw, there's a pretty popular new theory around here worth checking out: R+L=Lightbringer.

Dawn may well have been the original Lightbringer, but I don't think it is the contemporary Lightbringer.

[Agamemnon]

One of my favorite pet theories is that dragons once existed in abundance in Westeros. This being said I have some general notes:

Ice is only 400 years old and is named after a far older ancestral blade which could very well have been LB but we know nothing about it.

Obsidian IMO us terribly overrated. Sure it works fine and well on the WW themselves, but wouldnt do any more damage than a bunch of sharp rocks againsts the thousands of Wights so the Long Night wasnt as much of a stroll through the park as you make it out to be.

Dawn is very interesting as a potential LB, I started a thread a few days ago to throw around some thoughts on Lightbringer and there are some great ideas and observations which support the Dawn as LB line of thought.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104740-thoughts-on-lightbringer/page-2#entry5475834

Check it out lots of different theories on the sword (or lack there of).

[Paeon]

Great OP, I definitely think that there is more to the Daynes than we know at the moment, and the way Dawn has been described makes it a weapon that can only really be compared to Valyrian swords.

Which is an interesting comparison as Dawn is described as being just as sharp as Valyrian Steel but is as "pale as milkglass" as opposed to the dark rippled Valyrian steel.

GRRM confirmed in an SSM that "magic" went into the forging of Valyrian steel. I think it's plausible to conclude that Dawn was forged by the First Men using a similar magic, except an opposite as it derived from the same magic that is related to the Others, Land of Always Winter, and maybe warging as well.

[aryagonnakill#2]

One of my favorite pet theories is that dragons once existed in abundance in Westeros. This being said I have some general notes:

Ice is only 400 years old and is named after a far older ancestral blade which could very well have been LB but we know nothing about it.

Obsidian IMO us terribly overrated. Sure it works fine and well on the WW themselves, but wouldnt do any more damage than a bunch of sharp rocks againsts the thousands of Wights so the Long Night wasnt as much of a stroll through the park as you make it out to be.

Dawn is very interesting as a potential LB, I started a thread a few days ago to throw around some thoughts on Lightbringer and there are some great ideas and observations which support the Dawn as LB line of thought.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104740-thoughts-on-lightbringer/page-2#entry5475834

Check it out lots of different theories on the sword (or lack there of).

We saw leaf darting from 1 wight to the other burning them without any real trouble, they seem to be much quicker than the wights. Still not saying it was a picnic.

Until GRRM proves me wrong I will believe Drogon is lightbringer however I think Dawn being LB has some merit, actually based on something you did not post. AA is suppose to be heralded by a bleeding star, and we are also told that Dawn was forged from a meteor/comet/asteroid.

[J. Stargaryen]

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

- AGoT, Eddard X (ToJ)

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

- AGoT, Prologue

Of course GRRM does like to use the phrase "alive with light" so it could be a false positive. That said, Dawn is a unique sword in the realms of men.

---

^ This is from a different thread. The gist of it is that Dawn is described somewhat similarly to Others' swords. There could be reasons for that besides it actually being a sword made by them. Still, it's interesting to note.

[Ser Creighton]

Ah another thread on the proverbial night light. You know it's funny I tend to think a lot of the theories on the Night Light are actually right in one way or another and usually are supported by some decent evidence. I tend to think LB will have multiple aspects rather than one. As we we have seen with the prophecies, they also have multiple aspects. The way the dragons eggs were hatched is not all that different from the AA LB prophecy, Dawn has so much symbolism pointing in that direction with it's name. I mean it is forged from the heart of a falling star, why the hell is it called Dawn then and why is the office called Sword of the morning? You can find multiple characters sort of mimicking the prophecies of the legends. Some say Red herring I tend to think they are all one and the same.

I thought the Idea of the Night Queen as a Dayne was an interesting idea. I don't know how valid but it was interesting, thought it was the most interesting part of your reply.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I completely disagree. Brandon Stark was strangled, not cut at the neck.

I believe that poster was referring to "a" Brandon Stark, not Ned's brother. The name's been used a lot in the family history.

If Dawn is Lightbringer (aptly named for Dawn ending the Long Night) it lends credence to the idea that Jon is the son of Ashara Dayne, since only a Dayne can wield it and be Sword of the Morning (per tradition). Jon is uniquely positioned to fight the Others. The Daynes live way down in Dorne, nowhere near the Wall. The only Daynes available to wield Dawn, that we are aware of anyway, are Edric and Gerold; one is too young and green, the other too angry and bitter to be the hero who will defeat the Others.

Jon's entire story arc is leading to him fighting against the Others, not for them. Could GRRM switch that? Yes, but it doesn't make much sense so I don't think he will.

[Muggle]

I think that Dawn is Lightbringer. I also think this is DragonSteel is another name for the same weapon.

I theorized that DragonSteel got its name from the First men calling the Sword Dragon because it "breaths fire" and Then Steel is a term that the Andal Spetons used. When taking the stories from the First Men and there Old Tongue. A translation error. Steel is a general term to refer to a sword. In the Old Tongue the name of DragonSteel could easily of been DragonSword. Because of the unique property that is emits heat and "breaths fire"

I think Jon is AA and when he wields Dawn the blood magic will activate and the sword will come alive with fire.

[gogorath]

Couple of thoughts:

1. It's pretty clear (and I think verified by Martin) that AA and TLH and TPtwP are the same thing/same story.

2. I don't think the white haired woman who was sacrificed was a Dayne (there's plenty of white haired peole who aren't Daynes or Targs), but it's mostly irrelevant to your theory. Not only does the person not need to be a Dayne for them to have existed, the Daynes need not have existed for Dawn to have existed.

3. I do think Dawn is a very likely candidate for Lightbringer if it still exists. There's a lot of convoluted theories out there, but it's a lot more believable than some of these other theories that don't involve swords. Martin usually leaves lots of hints in the text; i don't know that most of these other theories have much real textual basis.

[Ser Creighton]

Couple of thoughts:

1. It's pretty clear (and I think verified by Martin) that AA and TLH and TPtwP are the same thing/same story.

2. I don't think the white haired woman who was sacrificed was a Dayne (there's plenty of white haired peole who aren't Daynes or Targs), but it's mostly irrelevant to your theory. Not only does the person not need to be a Dayne for them to have existed, the Daynes need not have existed for Dawn to have existed.

3. I do think Dawn is a very likely candidate for Lightbringer if it still exists. There's a lot of convoluted theories out there, but it's a lot more believable than some of these other theories that don't involve swords. Martin usually leaves lots of hints in the text; i don't know that most of these other theories have much real textual basis.

I tend to think of the three as a concept applied to leaders, an idea that people rose up against the Others and found a way to fight back. No one person defeated the Others, I don't really buy that idea. All three ideas follow the same concept of a hero/heroes seeking a way to defeat the Others.

I like the ideas of the Daynes in the North, though I can't really validate the Night queen. The Daynes pre date the Andals meaning they are first men or find their roots there. The Daynes very well may have been one of the houses or peoples fighting the Others. Dawn may have been something they forged to battle them. I don't know, but I won't hold the idea out of possibility. As J. Star points out the historical figure/figures and item may very well have been Lightbringer but in the contemporary there are hints of multiple people trying to find weapons to fight the Others. Bran, Jon, Sam, possibly Bloodraven (his motives are still masked to an extent) and Dany has Dragon dreams about battling them. We are given clues about multiple weapons, Dragonglass, possibly Dawn and Dragon steel. The LH was seeking the children to find a weapon, AA was trying to forge a weapon and we don't know enough about TPTWP prophecy to say why said person was waking the Dragons or their purpose but they would seem like a pretty good weapon against the Others, the Comet and the Dragons have been referred to as a red sword much the way LB was referred to as a Red sword.

[J. Stargaryen]

I tend to think of the three as a concept applied to leaders, an idea that people rose up against the Others and found a way to fight back. No one person defeated the Others, I don't really buy that idea. All three ideas follow the same concept of a hero/heroes seeking a way to defeat the Others.

I like the ideas of the Daynes in the North, though I can't really validate the Night queen. The Daynes pre date the Andals meaning they are first men or find their roots there. The Daynes very well may have been one of the houses or peoples fighting the Others. Dawn may have been something they forged to battle them. I don't know, but I won't hold the idea out of possibility. As J. Star points out the historical figure/figures and item may very well have been Lightbringer but in the contemporary there are hints of multiple people trying to find weapons to fight the Others. Bran, Jon, Sam, possibly Bloodraven (his motives are still masked to an extent) and Dany has Dragon dreams about battling them. We are given clues about multiple weapons, Dragonglass, possibly Dawn and Dragon steel. The LH was seeking the children to find a weapon, AA was trying to forge a weapon and we don't know enough about TPTWP prophecy to say why said person was waking the Dragons or their purpose but they would seem like a pretty good weapon against the Others, the Comet and the Dragons have been referred to as a red sword much the way LB was referred to as a Red sword.

I think this is something that needs to be clarified when discussing things like LB or AA. Are you talking about the historical LB or the contemporary one? Do you believe they are the same thing? Are you talking about Azor Ahai or Azor Ahai reborn?