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King Robert Baratheon, an underrated king?


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So if the credit goes to Hand, than all of Aerys' and Robert's failures must also be blamed on the hand, effectively making both Aerys and Robert equal.

Well, to be fair, the shit and destruction of the realm began when Tywin was "fired." Incompetent pretenders and toadies took his place and continued the insane journey to Robnarok. Cersei's story mirrors the Mad King's almost identically including the shaming, Cersei at the walk and Aerys at Duskendale.

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Aerys burned a few nobles. By contrast LF and the Lannisters (who Robert welcomed into the royal fold) killed a few nobles too. Aerys's and Robert reign ended with a mass civil war (through action and inaction).

These killings were done in secret or after Robert was dead, it isn't like he sanctioned them to kill Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. Aerys outright ordered nobles to be burned alive and he planned to destroy King's Landing and kill everyone inside.

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I really dont think he was such a bad king, there are many flaws exacerbated by many myths.

First of all is that he was a puppet of the Lannisters. Thats a huge mistake and I blame ned personal hate for it. Bob was extrimly inteligent in this matter giving enormus power to both his brothers. Renly was Lord Paramount of the Storm Lands, with big armys at his dipossal, and altough Stannis was rewarded with a keep with less swords, he got the fleet, which as we saw he could use with big freedom and independence and gave him a big ammount of power. Bottom line, the whole fleet and the Storm Lands and Dragon Storm armies were under his own family.

The same could be said about the Hands he chose: extrimlt loyal and capable men.

Whic brings the matter to the Small council. Was it so unballanced with both of his brothers, his friend hand and Barristan the Bold?. Pycelle was the only real pro lannister member, and he is more the citadel to blame. Varys and Baelish have they own agenda. But unlist LF is more Arryns fault than his. Overall this is not a pro Lannister council, and Ned is blind by hate. A cuple of squires and an empty title for Jaime cant be seen as a huge Lannister influence.

Side not for his great own idea of the Joff-Sansa marriage. In a normal course of events that would had made the Baratheon dinasty sronger than ever, with his grandkids carring Lannister, Baratheon, Tully and Stark blood, so tided with most major houses.

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These killings were done in secret or after Robert was dead, it isn't like he sanctioned them to kill Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. Aerys outright ordered nobles to be burned alive and he planned to destroy King's Landing and kill everyone inside.

So as long as Aerys appointed pyromaniac people and didn't explicitly give the order he is in the clear ?

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So as long as Aerys appointed pyromaniac people and didn't explicitly give the order he is in the clear ?

If they somehow managed to keep it secret from him or he died and they retained their power and did it, yes. What is the point of hypotheticals, we know Aerys ordered the burnings, he knew about the burnings and he enjoyed the burnings.

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Baratheon/Arryn reign was pretty good for Westeros. They racked up a debt, but they also stayed on top of the debt and serviced it, which continued until Tywin put Baelish in charge of the Vale. Baratheon was a figure head who was good for the morale of the nation, Arryn a fine prime minister who ruled a nation of peace and plenty without any major skirmishes. Robert was no genius but he was not the terrible king he's made out to be.


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Robert was a tremendously bad King. His only saving grace was that he was between Aerys and Joff, two worse Kings.



Robert impoverished the Crown, alienated allies, misunderstood the corrosive effect his form of "loyalty" had on former enemies (Tywin, Balon Grayjoy), and he failed to effectuate lasting loyalty to the Crown and his relatively new Dynasty.



There is a tremendously good scene in the first season of Game of Thrones where Robert and Cersei are talking and Robert lays out his view of Westeroes and his realpolitik view of his government. He says to Cersei that having Seven relatively autonomous Kingdoms in Westeroes had a weakening effect on him and his actual realm. The example he gives- which is stronger? Five (holds up five fingers) or one (holds up one fist)? - is accurate, blunt and perceptive. The Seven Kingdoms require an anchor to orbit around. And for 300 years that was the Targaryen Dynasty- with or without Dragons. Robert believes that it is his job to provide for the Seven Kingdoms that anchor; to make these 7 Kingdoms one. OPtherwise, they can be picked off by more powerful forces- The Dothrakai, Dany, or the Others.



Why Mention this?



Because it shows PRECISELY how horrible a ruler Robert was- the ONE THING he should have done was coalesce and gel the Seven KIngdoms; limit the in-fighting and rivalries and create a relatively homogeneous realm that could enter the next 300 years of rule. The results? Donre utterly absent, the Lannisters far too involved, two Hands who were ineffective- one beggared the realm, the other helped throw it into Civil War; a wilting KIngsguard, debts unpaid, armies unaccounted for and enemies left in the field to say nothing of sitting in positions of authority (ie: Balon Greyjoy).



Bad enough that the Mountain that Rides slashes up the Roiverlands while Robert is alive; BAD ENOUGH that Ned and Jaime come to blows; that Cat KIDNAPS Tyrion! All of these things would be horrible and terrible all on their own. Made far far far far worse in that Robert Did.... NOTHING! He allowed the next civil war to ripen and blossom as he was ruling.



Is it any wonder that his second terrible Hand was executed by his rotten son? How much loyalty did Robert ever teach Joff? Or how to rule? Or the importance of keeping vassal states in line by NOT executing their second ruler in a row?



And how can you make that EVEN WORSE? Simple: take the most experienced, dedicated, capable and violent soldier you have and then TAKE AWAY HIS HOLDINGS in Storm's End and give him Dragonstone? Remove him from your counsel, isolate him and make him an outsider?


Because, I mean- really, just how effective is Stannis Baratheon, really? I don't know- ask Renly, Balon Greyjoy and Mance Ryder. They may know.



Robert would have been a terrible King had he just been a boozing, womanizing, money-wasting imbecile. But his inability to do THE ONE THING HE HIMSELF KNEW was VITAL to his rule is unforgivable. He failed to make the 7 Kingdoms loyal to him and his Dynasty and he did that in a variety of mind-boggling bad ways.


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The level of corruption at King's Landing is astounding. And this post made me really think about it. How hard would it be to keep the Kingdom out of debt? If there are issues over 6 million gold dragons? I mean you could easily keep the king with his proclivities entertained on a budget. Also, where did the money go? And then it hit me. The Lannister's main source of income is mining. Mines do run out of ore, even the Romans over mined and extinguished them pretty regularly. With Tywin running the ship as the Hand for 20 years, there was a shitload of graft to keep up the appearance of propriety and then some. Shortly thereafter, they have Robert's drunk ass sitting around and they could use the crown as the debtor. The Lannisters with LF's help, are claiming loans they never really gave and borrowing from the Iron Bank, all in somebody else name. That seems pretty reasonable to me?


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Mith: He gave more power to Renly than to Stannis.

Cause of missconceotion: Renlys Army at the WOT5K. This army is 75% Tyrell and this is because Renlys diplomatic skills. Has nothing to do with Robert.

Overall Stannis got a keep with lesser bannermen than Renly, but this was compensated because of the huge ammount of power Bob gave to Stannis giving him enormous freedom and independence to use the whole royal fleet as he sees fit. Warships which Renly has none. Thats almost 200 warships.

Even more he seams to command Storms Lands own vessels as the Lord Steffon which should be Renlys, and he is even allowed to have a bannerman in Storm Lands as house Seaworth sworn to Dragon Stone

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And how can you make that EVEN WORSE? Simple: take the most experienced, dedicated, capable and violent soldier you have and then TAKE AWAY HIS HOLDINGS in Storm's End and give him Dragonstone? Remove him from your counsel, isolate him and make him an outsider?

Because, I mean- really, just how effective is Stannis Baratheon, really? I don't know- ask Renly, Balon Greyjoy and Mance Ryder. They may know.

Stannis was never Lord of Storm's end. Robert awarded him by giving Stannis his own noble title and lands.

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Robert was a tremendously bad King. His only saving grace was that he was between Aerys and Joff, two worse Kings.

Robert impoverished the Crown, alienated allies, misunderstood the corrosive effect his form of "loyalty" had on former enemies (Tywin, Balon Grayjoy), and he failed to effectuate lasting loyalty to the Crown and his relatively new Dynasty.

There is a tremendously good scene in the first season of Game of Thrones where Robert and Cersei are talking and Robert lays out his view of Westeroes and his realpolitik view of his government. He says to Cersei that having Seven relatively autonomous Kingdoms in Westeroes had a weakening effect on him and his actual realm. The example he gives- which is stronger? Five (holds up five fingers) or one (holds up one fist)? - is accurate, blunt and perceptive. The Seven Kingdoms require an anchor to orbit around. And for 300 years that was the Targaryen Dynasty- with or without Dragons. Robert believes that it is his job to provide for the Seven Kingdoms that anchor; to make these 7 Kingdoms one. OPtherwise, they can be picked off by more powerful forces- The Dothrakai, Dany, or the Others.

Why Mention this?

Because it shows PRECISELY how horrible a ruler Robert was- the ONE THING he should have done was coalesce and gel the Seven KIngdoms; limit the in-fighting and rivalries and create a relatively homogeneous realm that could enter the next 300 years of rule. The results? Donre utterly absent, the Lannisters far too involved, two Hands who were ineffective- one beggared the realm, the other helped throw it into Civil War; a wilting KIngsguard, debts unpaid, armies unaccounted for and enemies left in the field to say nothing of sitting in positions of authority (ie: Balon Greyjoy).

Bad enough that the Mountain that Rides slashes up the Roiverlands while Robert is alive; BAD ENOUGH that Ned and Jaime come to blows; that Cat KIDNAPS Tyrion! All of these things would be horrible and terrible all on their own. Made far far far far worse in that Robert Did.... NOTHING! He allowed the next civil war to ripen and blossom as he was ruling.

Is it any wonder that his second terrible Hand was executed by his rotten son? How much loyalty did Robert ever teach Joff? Or how to rule? Or the importance of keeping vassal states in line by NOT executing their second ruler in a row?

And how can you make that EVEN WORSE? Simple: take the most experienced, dedicated, capable and violent soldier you have and then TAKE AWAY HIS HOLDINGS in Storm's End and give him Dragonstone? Remove him from your counsel, isolate him and make him an outsider?

Because, I mean- really, just how effective is Stannis Baratheon, really? I don't know- ask Renly, Balon Greyjoy and Mance Ryder. They may know.

Robert would have been a terrible King had he just been a boozing, womanizing, money-wasting imbecile. But his inability to do THE ONE THING HE HIMSELF KNEW was VITAL to his rule is unforgivable. He failed to make the 7 Kingdoms loyal to him and his Dynasty and he did that in a variety of mind-boggling bad ways.

Agree with all of this. And I think Robert's rule could be remembered as the King that rather than do bad things, did nothing.
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Sure Aerys burned a few nobles, but under Robert reign he let his small council assassinate those the SC members despised.

''Burned a few nobles''? He instigated a war just as big as the WotFK and then planned to turn King's Landing to ashes when things started to go south.

And blaming Robert for what Varys and Littlefinger do is stretching it to the max. Varys was rumored to have induced madness in Aerys himself, and Littlefinger had everyone, including the Cockless Wonder, fooled.

And Aerys is far more to blame for the civil war. Robert wasn't aware that his wife was a sociopath who denied him heirs out of spite, and got killed at a bad moment. The Mad King called for the heads of two Great Lords without justification, fully knowing that Jon Arryn pretty much couldn't accept.

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Everyone calls him a terrible king, but let's think about that for a minute. One of his greatest talents was turning enemies to allies, he broke the Greyjoys, then brough them back into the kings piece instead of say... Pulling a Tywin Lannister and raising Pyke to the ground. Now given what happened in the books, you can argue that was a mistake, but you can't judge based on hindsight.

"Turned into ally"? "Broke the Greyjoys"? Balon launched an unprovoked rebellion, got beaten and then... left unpunished and in power. No, we don't need the benefit of hindsight to call it folly. Lord Bloodraven gave a rather more sensible example of dealing with a high treason: saying "there, there, you failed, so it's OK and no need to talk about it anymore" is not the way.

It's pretty common knowledge that he did not like ruling, he liked to fight, drink, and whore, fine, not great qualities in a King, but what did Robert do, he made Lord Arryn, by all accounts a very good person and wise Lord, his Hand. Really the only thing you can say Robert did wrong was to run up the crowns debt, not very smart, but really not a huge deal compared to the bad things his predecessor and heir did. He had a solid Small Council as well, Stannis is a very competent ruler, maybe not a great choice for King, but he is smart and just. Varys is a neccecary evil, and his loyalty is to the realm. Little Finger maybe a terrible person, but he was very good as Master of Coin.

Was Littlefinger a good MoC, or was he Bernie Madoff? Tyrion tried to examine his records and they stank more than a week-old dead fish. The royal treasury accumulated a huge debt, and in the same time the Master of Coin got immensely rich - yeah, something's a little off here. Too little data to assess how the other members of the SC did. But as for Jon Arryn himself...

JON ARRYN: Say, Doran, your sister, niece and nephew were brutally murdered, we're so sorry. OK, honestly, we don't give a fuck, you're not getting justice, there will be no trial, no investigation... but we cool, right?

DORAN MARTELL: Yea, we cool. (Immediately starts plotting against the new monarchy, waiting for an opportune moment to stab the Baratheons and the Lannisters in the back.)

JON ARRYN: Awesome! (High-fives himself and walks away, genuinely believing that the things are, indeed, cool.)

OTOH, Arryn considered a necessity to appease... the Lannisters, of all people. Just when Tywin politically painted himself forever into Robert's corner and had nowhere else to go! What, after murdering Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon would the Lannisters somehow revert to being Targaryen loyalists? Yeah right. A black cloak, instead of execution, for the Kingslayer would be the only concession any sane man would give to the Lannisters, not a fucking crown for Cersei! Bottom line, I have little respect for Jon Arryn's political abilities.

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He wasn't that bad, but his biggest mistakes (in hindsight) were:



- Allowing Jaime back in the Kingsguard (though this was likely Jon Arryn's work)


- Allowing Varys back in the small council (Jaime I get, to avoid pissing off Tywin, but Varys was literally a nobody who remained semi-loyal to Aerys until the last moment, and Barristan, Pycelle and likely many others knew how dangerous he was)


- Not chopping off Balon's head and not sending his brothers to the Wall. The Greyjoys got off very easily from that stupid rebellion


- Go hunting when the realm needed someone to put Tywin and Cat in their place

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While Robert had good points as king which you have pointed out, I don't think the debt can just be dismissed as 'not a big deal.' Economic policy is one of the most important functions of the government and this is where Robert willfully pursued a policy that he knew was wrong and that he was counselled against. And his reasons for doing so weren't because he had a different view on what would help the economy, it was because he thought finances weren't important.

It would help if we knew how big the debt was as a percentage of GDP, we don't. But Ned's shocked reaction suggests that it was considerable and the crown would soon have run into trouble servicing it.

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Dorne and the Reach had both stayed loyal to the Targaryens, meaning that Robert and Arryn had to appease Tywin Lannister, or risk a potential Dorne, Reach, Lannister alliance right at the start if Robert's rule, potentially restarting the War.

We do not know what sort of deal Jon Arryn made with Dorne, it's never revealed.

Before you say that Dorne and the Lannisters would never ally together of what the Lannisters did to Ellia and her children. Well it is likely that the alliance would have formed before word reached Dorne, allowing the Lannisters to lie about what really happened.

As for Balon Greyjoy, he was beaten, and he wasn't just left off the hook, Theon was taken prisoner, and I am sure there were heavy financial penalties as well. But you don't rule through fear, the Targaryens and Tywin Lannister did and did not have the same kind of loyalty in their banner an as the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns did. Once you beat an enemy you work to make him an ally. Greyjoy would not have revolted again had there not already been a war.

The marriage to Cersie was Jon Arryns fault, but it was a smart match, binding the Lannisters to the crown. He did not know that Cersie always loathed Robert for killing Rhaegar (in the show she loved him at first, but this is suppose to be about the novels, so that and his talk of one army is stronger then 5 does not either.) While Robert did little to make Cersie love him, it would not have worked anyway, she loved Rhaegar and Jamie. He was not much of a father, but I doubt it would have mattered, Joffery was a sociopath. And he had no reason to think that the kids were not his so the chaos in the succession was not his fault.

I have never said Robert was the second coming of Aragorn or King Arthur, just underrated. His apathy caused problems between the Starks and Lannisters, point conceded.

Little Finger is the fault of Jon Arryn, but he was very good at his job. He did not get rich by embezzling, he got rich with smart investments. He did not create the debt, he found ways to pay for it, and he did pay the loans he made or else The Faith, the Lannisters, and The Iron Bank would have been after their money, but there was no problem until Cersie stopped payment. He had his own agenda and is just a horrible horrible person, but was very good at his job.

Varys was a necessary evil, you have to have spies in order to get information.

How effective Renly was is not real well known, he was loved by the people.

Stannis was not dismissed from the council or anything, he ran back to Dragonstone, but was a very good Master of Ships.

Grand Maester Pycel was not appointed by Robert, nor could he have removed him from office.

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While Robert had good points as king which you have pointed out, I don't think the debt can just be dismissed as 'not a big deal.' Economic policy is one of the most important functions of the government and this is where Robert willfully pursued a policy that he knew was wrong and that he was counselled against. And his reasons for doing so weren't because he had a different view on what would help the economy, it was because he thought finances weren't important.It would help if we knew how big the debt was as a percentage of GDP, we don't. But Ned's shocked reaction suggests that it was considerable and the crown would soon have run into trouble servicing it.

I generally would not dismiss economics and racking up huge debt, and it is his biggest mistake and fault as a ruler. But compared to being either crazy or a sociopath and murdering those you feel like killing, I'll take a King that likes to spend to much on tournies and feasts.

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