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Benjen as coldhands


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#1 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:58 AM

Bran's connection to Benjen being CH.
 
Bran states: the children of the forest will help him(Benjen),  when Bran learns that his uncle is missing He is scolded for bringing up Old Nan's stories.
Bran sees a child of the forest she is helping Coldhands.  When he first speaks with the child of the forest, he feels as if he has slipped into one of Old Nan's stories.
 
Benjen taught Bran all the forts on the wall.  He mentioned that Bran knew them so well he could be first ranger. Later, Bran knows about the Nightfort's ice stairs but is not sure if Benjen or Luwin told him.  Bran did know that Benjen told him the ice was too treacherous for stairs. 
Coldhands has uncommon knowledge of the nightfort (location and operation of the black gate)
 
Bran comments that Benjen is first ranger and might know where the 3 eyed crow is.
Coldhands is a ranger that knows where the 3 eyed crow is.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Similarities?
Match
Benjen is described "as gaunt as a mountain crag"
Bran describes coldhands as "thin and gaunt"
Unknown
CH covers the lower part of his face.
Match
CH wears mottled blacks and grays.  
Benjen was with the NW for 15 years
Match
CH appears to have control over animals
Starks are known to be wargs
Unknown
Benjen had blue eyes
CH has black eyes.
(eye color change is part of becoming a wight)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CH  is recently deceased?
 
Clothing does not appear to be ancient and CH did not pick up new clothing from the traitors at Crasters. 
(BR's blacks are all but rotted away in a couple of hundred years (give or take).  Yoren's were worn to gray in about 30 (give or take).   CH seems to fit between them.
 
CH surprised by wights under the snow.  He was concerned when he reached the cave but continued on when he did not see the wights.
 
CH explains what happens to the body soon after death but not the long term effects.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Things to cast doubt on Coldhand's age
 
 
Some (ravens) would fly to the ranger and mutter to him.  It seemed to Bran that he understood their quorks and squaks. The time when men understood ravens has been forgotten by man. 
When Coldhands slaughtered the elk he spoke a tongue bran did not understand.
Leaf said No. They killed him long ago
 
If CH is a warg his ability to communicate with the ravens need not be ancient.
 

The Old Tongue is the language is currently in use by the Wildings and known by some NW brothers.  Bran does not speak the old tongue as Leaf learned the common tongue for him.

 

The statement was made in as a correction to Bran's concern that the wights were going to kill CH if they leave him outside the cave.  The statement includes that Leaf  knew about the death of person now known as CH's.   Bran's concern includes that he did not.  Leaf knew both CH backstory and that CH did not tell Bran.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

CH is not BR's meat puppet.

 

If BR warged CH, the elk, and the ravens, then ravens communicating with CH would be BR talking to himself.   The elk was not as obedient when CH was not close.

 

BR knew about the wights under the snow outside the cave.   CH did not.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Finally, Bejen's mission in the lands of always winter has either taken place completely off page or Benjen is CH.   If Benjen turns up in winds of winter with a weapon or information that will defeat the Others, all that Jon, Bran, and Stannis did was simply a diversion.  If Bran and CH's do the same thing the battle against the others is at least decided in the text.


Edited by stateofdissipation, 30 June 2014 - 09:12 AM.


#2 Kienn

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:48 PM


The case for Coldhand's being Benjen. 

For:

Coldhands was or is a member of the Nights Watch and was necessarily from south of the wall originally.
[color=rgb(68,68,68)][font=Calibri]

Are you forgetting Mance was born a wildling yet joined the Watch?

Edited by Kienn, 01 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.


#3 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:44 PM

Are you forgetting Mance was born a wildling yet joined the Watch?

I stand corrected fine person.

 

 

Coldhands was or is a member of the Nights Watch and was most likely from south of the wall originally.  (There have been men of the Nights Watch that were born as Wildings. TY Kienn)



#4 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:49 PM

Isn't Coldhands decried as being very large? And isn't Benjen roughly average in size? I maybe wrong about both, I just do not remember for a certain if those are true.



#5 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:58 PM

Isn't Coldhands decried as being very large? And isn't Benjen roughly average in size? I maybe wrong about both, I just do not remember for a certain if those are true.

It depends on who describes him... To Eddard Benjen is average... To Bran or Meera he is very large.  I will look in to those though and thank you fine The Santa.

 

 

the quick wiki search gives us:

 

Benjen:He has sharp features and blue eyes. He is very thin.

Coldhands:, his eyes are described as black, in contrast of the light blue of wights and Others.he is thin and gaunt, his voice rattles

 

If we knew that undead not wights had balck eyes and not blue it would help.  It does show that if it is Benjen his eye color changed.  We do have eye color changing in the undead...

 

His eyes are described by Sam as "not blue" (like wight's eyes) and they are black like the crows eyes when he is looking at the fire with Bran.

 

both are described a gaunt


Edited by stateofdissipation, 15 March 2014 - 03:44 PM.


#6 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:05 PM

I do not want Benjen to be Coldhands and I do not think he is, aside from my shaking memory about their physical descriptions. But I think Benjen is still alive and is up in the Land of Always Winter (Where I am from, HAHA, I mean, HO HO HO). GRRM has said that we will go further North of the Wall in WOW, and I think it will either be with Benjen or he will be found there.



#7 TheHouseHB

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:20 PM

It's possible that Benjen was kidnapped by Varys or one of his subjects to be stashed away as one of the last surviving male heirs to a house. Also, I do not see Benjen as the type to leave his men behind to fend for themselves even if it meant going on a secret mission to the Land of Always Winter.



#8 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:26 PM

It's possible that Benjen was kidnapped by Varys or one of his subjects to be stashed away as one of the last surviving male heirs to a house. Also, I do not see Benjen as the type to leave his men behind to fend for themselves even if it meant going on a secret mission to the Land of Always Winter.

From what we know, Benjen's men are wights like Othor.  It is unlikely he abandoned them to their fates or defeated the Other.


Edited by stateofdissipation, 01 March 2014 - 02:29 PM.


#9 Anomaly

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:31 PM

I highly doubt Benjen is Coldhands... However I really hope he is alive somewhere.

#10 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:35 PM

It's highly unlikely that Benjen is Coldhands.



#11 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:37 PM

It's possible that Benjen was kidnapped by Varys or one of his subjects to be stashed away as one of the last surviving male heirs to a house. Also, I do not see Benjen as the type to leave his men behind to fend for themselves even if it meant going on a secret mission to the Land of Always Winter.

 

I find it highly unlikely that Varys had agents North of The Wall, and if he did, so that he could produce a living Stark, it would do little good, as Benjen is a Man of The Nights Watch and unable to leave it in order to rule in Winterfell. What I think happened with him and his men, is not that he abandoned them, they were attacked, Benjen survived, maybe because he was elsewhere, scouting, taking a piss, hunting, who knows. When he gets back, he finds his men dead, then "alive again" and maybe defeats one that is left, while the others went south towards The Wall. Then he decided to head north, or even tract the Others and WWs back North to learn what he could.



#12 aryagonnakill#2

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:38 PM

I orignally thought Benjen was coldhands because it seemed "neat" and also the covered face thing was what really made me think it.  However not too long ago I read a theory about how Bloodraven went to the wall with 1 other person who was a fighter, in my mind he is at least as likely if not even more so.  Perhaps the eye color is due to who is warging him.  If a wight rises perhaps the blue eyes shows the connection/hold the others have over them, but since coldhands is either being warged by BR or himself ala a warg who got killed and warged himself.



#13 aryagonnakill#2

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:39 PM

Interesting thought just entered my mind - along the same line of thought kind of, wtf was Bronn doing north of the wall!?!  Is he a nights watch deserter?



#14 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:41 PM

  wtf was Bronn doing north of the wall!?!  Is he a nights watch deserter?

 

 

Oh, good though, but that is a thought for another thread. Do you want to start it, or should I?



#15 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

It's highly unlikely that Benjen is Coldhands.

 

I orignally thought Benjen was coldhands because it seemed "neat" and also the covered face thing was what really made me think it.  However not too long ago I read a theory about how Bloodraven went to the wall with 1 other person who was a fighter, in my mind he is at least as likely if not even more so.  Perhaps the eye color is due to who is warging him.  If a wight rises perhaps the blue eyes shows the connection/hold the others have over them, but since coldhands is either being warged by BR or himself ala a warg who got killed and warged himself.

with 2 books remaining... max... and plenty of loose ends to tie up.  Neat seems to be a direction worth looking.



#16 ugashep

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

Pre-ADWD I think this was a legit theory but the fact that it was a child of the forest (who are known to live hundreds of years) who said Coldhands died "long ago" in ADWD pretty much kills this theory stone dead. I hope Benjen shows back up, but I really really don't think he is Coldhands.



#17 Torrhen Blackwood

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:09 PM

I really want Benjen to be Coldhands but I just don't think it is so. And seeing how it looks like the show will have have Coldhands this season (I know, show isn't canon), I doubt this will be the case. I think Uncle Ben is somewhere up in the Frostfangs or the Lands of Always Winter searching for something.



#18 The Doctor's Consort

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:19 PM

Pre-ADWD I think this was a legit theory but the fact that it was a child of the forest (who are known to live hundreds of years) who said Coldhands died "long ago" in ADWD pretty much kills this theory stone dead. I hope Benjen shows back up, but I really really don't think he is Coldhands.

Mostly this. Leaf said long ago and I don't think that 2 years are long ago for someone who is 200 years old. 

For some strange reason I believe that is the NK, but lately I have the crackpot idea that he is the LH.



#19 Deep Like Davos

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:20 PM

Maybe the elk isn't wild but domesticated by the COTF.

Scarf could cover up a horrible gross scary wound (he had to die somehow)

My money is still on Daemon Blackfyre II.

As far as the eyes go, I have two possible explanations:
1) his purple eyes look black cause he is wearing blacks. (Like blue/blue in the books, twice).
2) the blood in his hands turns black, y not his eyes too.

Edited by Deep Like Davos, 01 March 2014 - 03:42 PM.


#20 stateofdissipation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:22 PM

Mostly this. Leaf said long ago and I don't think that 2 years are long ago for someone who is 200 years old. 

For some strange reason I believe that is the NK, but lately I have the crackpot idea that he is the LH.

Leaf said long ago to Bran who was worried about the immediate danger to Coldhands.  Compared to immediate danger, 2 years is a long time ago.  Leaf was reassuring Bran, not giving him a history lesson.