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Family inherent magic as it applies to individuals


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#1 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 03:49 PM

Feel free to ignore this thread or not post at all if any of the subjects bother you.  It's just my summation of thoughts after much discussion and reading what others have posted. 

 

Summing up any family as a whole is wrong.  And it does nothing to help any theories, there are always exceptions.  Everything comes down to the potential of the bloodline and the individual.  For instance certain members of each family are special, the requirements to being 'special' are; 

1. be born into one of the magical families; Starks, Targaryens, Blackfyres, Boltons

2. have the luck to be a member of that family who is able to access the inherent magic that comes from that families bloodline

3.  be an individual who makes the right choices to harness that magic.

 

Like what Butterbumps was saying on her thread about the Boltons, that Roose is actually a lot older than he appears.  that the boltons have magic in their family.  Roose has taken the right steps to ensure his youthfulness, by blood sacrifice (possibly of his children) and the leeching. Not every member of his family can do this, but he can and he made the right choices to make it work for him.

 

Not all Starks are wargs, but they do have the warg 'gene'.  Some of them are able to access it and some can't. Ned, Benjen, Brandon and Rickard are all not wargs, but obviously the children are.  There is argument that Lyanna was, but we will probably never know, but Ned and Lyanna still had the gene to pass to their children, even if they themselves were not wargs.

 

That's why we can't group any entire family into one 'rule' or 'standard'

 

Some Targs can ride dragons, and some with just a drop of dragon blood, cannot.

 

Some Targaryens can get sick and they can get burned.  They are not (as a whole family) immune to fire or sickness. 

However some Targaryens "Have a higher-heat tolerance than ordinary people" (SSM).--Which is a quote that could be interpreted many ways, but I think it is clear that it means that the 'heat-tolerance' varies from Targ to Targ.  Dany obviously shows, on many occasions, of being tolerant to 'heat' in the form of fire (in the Pyre, the HOTU and the pit).  but then in the pit her skin was in fact blistered by the hot metal spear.  So obviously she can be damaged by hot metal, just like Viserys and his crown of gold (there is obviously a difference between fire and hot metal when it applies to Dany, but we don't know about Viserys). And Jon Snow being burned by the lantern fire at The Wall, Jon is a good person and a strong Targaryen, but he shows no signs of the 'higher heat tolerance' like Dany does.   I think Dany shows stronger signs of the heat-tolerance than any other Targ we have ever met.  Aegon V also shows signs of having a high-tolerance during his travels with Dunk in D&E, but again we have no examples of him around fire specifically, just that he doesn't get hot and sweat the way 'ordinary' people do in the blistering heat of the sun.

 

It is sort of like an anomaly within the Targaryen family (like Neo). If enough Targ children are born, odds are that a few of them will have just the right genes and make-up that they have a much higher heat tolerance than others and vice-versa, some of them are born with no heat tolerance advantage and no specialities.  But even the ones who are born with it, simply having a higher-heat tolerance does not make them superheroes, and anyone on this planet who drinks wildfire will have the same outcome and die. Dany could not drink wildfire, that is just a stupid idea, just as stupid as jumping into a river of lava.

 

Same thing goes with the sickness immunity, some have it stronger than others.  but obviously it is a real thing or it would never be mentioned in the books.  Dnay has never been sick, nor caught a disease.  She doesn't say it directly but I think it is safe to assume Viserys never did either because Dany never mentions it when she is thinking back on how she never got sick, and if he had gotten sick then she would never be thinking 'members of my family cannot catch disease'.  However that does not mean she is completely immune to all health risks in the world.  It's not like she had  Rhaego then jumped up 5 minutes later to get back on the horse, she was out for days.  Just like when she has the miscarriage in DwD, that is a health problem, but not a disease, it was possibly brought on by food poisoning, which she can also get.  If I had to guess I would say no virus can live in her body or attach to her cells, but she can have health problems. But there is no evidence that every member of her family is the same as her.  Several Targ's died in the Great Spring Sickness.

 

Does that make sense what I am saying? that there are no 'rules' that apply to entire families, we have a few certain members of each family that have their families 'magic' gene. 


Edited by Suzanna Stormborn, 16 June 2014 - 09:37 AM.


#2 SeanF

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:03 PM

I think that some people have inherited magical powers, but they still have to be trained, in order to work magic consistently.

Dany hatched the dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice, but she acted intuitively. She has prophetic dreams, but she can't conjure them. I think that she may be inherently a sorcerer, but an untrained one. Jon is a warg, but has barely attempted to use his magical powers.

#3 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:12 PM

I think that some people have inherited magical powers, but they still have to be trained, in order to work magic consistently.

Dany hatched the dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice, but she acted intuitively. She has prophetic dreams, but she can't conjure them. I think that she may be inherently a sorcerer, but an untrained one. Jon is a warg, but has barely attempted to use his magical powers.

Right, so Jon gets his magic from the Stark side of his family, not the Targ side.



#4 Mladen

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:24 PM

Here we go again...

I would believe in randomness of special powers if there are not some rather logical clues made by GRRM. Randomness works only if there is some plot purpose which in some caises - Dany's doesn't exist. So, we can argue some qualities of individuals and variations inside the family but only to the point where it doesn't contradicts the logic. And I am sorry, but the talk about Dany's special heat resistence and immunity simply doesn't hold.

#5 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:29 PM

Here we go again...

I would believe in randomness of special powers if there are not some rather logical clues made by GRRM. Randomness works only if there is some plot purpose which in some caises - Dany's doesn't exist. So, we can argue some qualities of individuals and variations inside the family but only to the point where it doesn't contradicts the logic. And I am sorry, but the talk about Dany's special heat resistence and immunity simply doesn't hold.

havent seen you in a while, but I'm sorry did you not read the first 2 sentences? whatever just keep saying the same thing over and over since this subject obviously just annoys you, i gave examples and an SSM, i have changed my thoughts and developed my opinions over the years. as far as i can tell yours have stayed exactly the same, with no budging or room for others thoughts. So i hear your opinion and I already knew it, which was why I said there's no need to post if this bothers you.



#6 Mladen

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

havent seen you in a while, but I'm sorry did you not read the first 2 sentences? whatever just keep saying the same thing over and over since this subject obviously just annoys you, i gave examples and an SSM, i have changed my thoughts and developed my opinions over the years. as far as i can tell yours have stayed exactly the same, with no budging or room for others thoughts. So i hear your opinion and I already knew it, which was why I said there's no need to post if this bothers you.


Suzanna, you have obviously misinterpreted my intention. This thread has a strong tendency into transforming into yet another fireproof, immunity debate. I just expressed my opinion about randomness in division of power which, if I am not mistaken, is the point of this thread. You, just as anyone else here, are entitled to your opinion no matter what I or anyone else think of it. So, stop playing that card since it is just pointless and counterproductive.

Edited by Mladen, 07 March 2014 - 04:38 PM.


#7 Darksnider05

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:49 PM

What exactly do the Boltons have?  I've never associated them with any kind of magic.


Edited by Darksnider05, 07 March 2014 - 04:49 PM.


#8 A Man Has Said

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:58 PM

Tolerance for heat doesn't translate into immunity to heat. We can accept that some Targs have the former, but not the latter, and there's no need for arguing about it.

 

It seems that the Stark children were latent skinchangers, and their warg abilities were brought out by their proximity to the direwolves. So the way I look at it is that it's a talent that is only half contained in the human component, the other half being in the receptive wolf or other animal. I think this is borne out by considering Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven. He is not just a skinchanger, but a greenseer as well, the greatest that we know about (though it's strongly implied that Bran is destined to eclipse his abilities.) He's not a Stark, nor does he seem to have any genes in common with the Stark children, but he was brought up in proximity to a huge mess of ravens at Raventree.

Perhaps it will be revealed later on that the skinchanging ability has something to do with the Weirwood trees, (being a greenseer almost certainly does) even dead ones. I think the weirwoods are going to have way more significance in the upcoming books. Certain incidents connected to High Heart seem to indicate that to me.



#9 Blow My Horn

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:17 PM

I also thought there would be something about the Westerlings with the way Martin introduced them. Old family tracing roots to the First Men, maybe there was some mingling with CotF? Aaaaand... nothing. Bummed.

 

I'm not sold on the Boltons having anything mystical about them. Leeching was a common way to remove impurities from the blood in the past and is still used in cases such as amputation.


Edited by Blow My Horn, 07 March 2014 - 05:19 PM.


#10 Audrey Arryn

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:50 PM

I think that some people have inherited magical powers, but they still have to be trained, in order to work magic consistently.

Dany hatched the dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice, but she acted intuitively. She has prophetic dreams, but she can't conjure them. I think that she may be inherently a sorcerer, but an untrained one. Jon is a warg, but has barely attempted to use his magical powers.

:agree:

I think thats another parallel between Jon and Dany.



#11 MasterJack

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:25 PM

I think almost everyone in this world has some sort of magic power and just need to be trained and with the right trigger you can wake up those power was faster and easier I think the doggies was the stark kids trigger and for the wildings with power  it was the proximity to those same mythical beast north of the wall we cant find south.



#12 MoIaF

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:37 PM

I think that some people have inherited magical powers, but they still have to be trained, in order to work magic consistently.
Dany hatched the dragon eggs by means of human sacrifice, but she acted intuitively. She has prophetic dreams, but she can't conjure them. I think that she may be inherently a sorcerer, but an untrained one. Jon is a warg, but has barely attempted to use his magical powers.


I like this and it works well with what we have seen so far from these two. As Suzanne mentioned it doesn't mean that everyone in the family is going to be the same. It's a lot like in real life, so people are just born with certain talents regardless of who their family is. However, it the case of Westeros it does help if you come from a family with a history of having having certain type of abilities as is Dany's case and some Targaryens members having prophetic dream.

#13 Jory Cassel

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:50 PM

I don't think skinchanging has anything to do with the Stark-bloodline, but with first men heritage. It'd be in perfect accordance with Bloodraven as a Blackwood being a skinchanger and the existence of skinhangers beyond the wall.



#14 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:21 AM

Suzanna, you have obviously misinterpreted my intention. This thread has a strong tendency into transforming into yet another fireproof, immunity debate. I just expressed my opinion about randomness in division of power which, if I am not mistaken, is the point of this thread. You, just as anyone else here, are entitled to your opinion no matter what I or anyone else think of it. So, stop playing that card since it is just pointless and counterproductive.

Hey listen,

I love you, and I totally respect your opinion on all subjects of ASOIAF.  You are well-spoken and very thoughtful on all matters...... But I have to say.....you are wrong about this......There are 'special' members of each magical family.......This would be the counter argument for what you are saying.........So you think that Bran is not 'special' among the Starks? Everyone in his family has the exact same abilities that he does? Because it makes no sense to argue that Dany or anyone is not special in any way if you think Bran is not.  Unless you want to post a theory about how Bran is totally ordinary among his own family, that the entire Stark family is nothing but warging greenseers, please elaborate on the point that show Ned as a Warg......otherwise your idea that Dany is special in no way has no bearing whatsoever.


Edited by Suzanna Stormborn, 08 March 2014 - 02:14 AM.


#15 Suzanna Stormborn

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:28 AM

I like this and it works well with what we have seen so far from these two. As Suzanne mentioned it doesn't mean that everyone in the family is going to be the same. It's a lot like in real life, so people are just born with certain talents regardless of who their family is. However, it the case of Westeros it does help if you come from a family with a history of having having certain type of abilities as is Dany's case and some Targaryens members having prophetic dream.

Thank you. my point is to illustrate that it is not a good idea to sum up any family as a whole.  THere are certain possible capabilities that come with being a member of a certain famliy, but it is by no means proof that just because you are born a Stark you will be able to Warg a direwolf, or just because you are born a Targ you will have a higher-heat tolerance, it comes down to luck of having the right genes and being born from a certain bloodline.  That's why Jon is so interesting, he is the heir to 2 legitimate magical families, which we have not otherwise seen from a main character.



#16 Kienn

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 02:00 AM

I don't see any concrete proof of randomness by birth.

Rationalizing Dany's burns by special rules(metal will burn her but other sources won't... Huh?) just makes it clear you're trying to twist the rules really badly to fit the facts.

-----------

I favor a nurture outlook on the variability of magic like warging.

Who are the strongest wargs? Bran and Arya.

What do they share? They both spent time in utter darkness to gain control of their power (Bran in crypt, Arya while blind)

Why is Bran a greenseer/treeskinchanger as well? Because he was also in a coma for weeks or months, and he's being intentionally trained for such. I won't be surprised if Jon gets a giant boost in power while he recovers from his stabbings.

-----

Just because a character mentions something doesn't make it real. Many of them are simply legends that have formed - at best from twisted truths - in their world just as we have in the real world.

Immunity from disease? Targs are all highborn so they get to have a proper diet and maesters around 24/7.

Gods? An explanation for the unknown/magic.

Edited by Kienn, 08 March 2014 - 03:05 AM.


#17 Mladen

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:26 AM

Hey listen,

I love you, and I totally respect your opinion on all subjects of ASOIAF.  You are well-spoken and very thoughtful on all matters...... But I have to say.....you are wrong about this......There are 'special' members of each magical family.......This would be the counter argument for what you are saying.........So you think that Bran is not 'special' among the Starks? Everyone in his family has the exact same abilities that he does? Because it makes no sense to argue that Dany or anyone is not special in any way if you think Bran is not.  Unless you want to post a theory about how Bran is totally ordinary among his own family, that the entire Stark family is nothing but warging greenseers, please elaborate on the point that show Ned as a Warg......otherwise your idea that Dany is special in no way has no bearing whatsoever.

 

Dear, I know we disagree about this and that's fine with me. We can still be friends even though we disagree about certain issues regarding ASOIAF. Gods know that I have disagreements about something with half of my friends here on the forum.

 

As for me being wrong, well, that's just your opinion, as mine is that I am not. Bran is special among the Starks, but as we were told there is a logical reason for that "one in thousand wargs is a greenseer". So, there is rather logical reason why Bran can be greenseer and others aren't. As for Daenerys, simply, it contradicts the logic, it contradicts the text proofs and alas it contradicts GRRM himself who left no doubt about this. Is there something special (not supernatural) about Daenerys? Of course there is, otherwise we wouldn't have to read about her. The author created her and as such she is special in her own way. When it comes to supernatural aspect, we have no proof whatsoever to say that Daenerys is in any way more special than the other Targaryens. For everything she has done by now, someone else has done before her, plain and simple.



#18 Wisenan69

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 04:07 AM

I don't think skinchanging has anything to do with the Stark-bloodline, but with first men heritage. It'd be in perfect accordance with Bloodraven as a Blackwood being a skinchanger and the existence of skinhangers beyond the wall.


Didn't skingchanging exist way before the First Men? It's one of the defining characteristics of the CotF, IIRC. Also seen among the wildings. Of course, besides the Starks and Bloodraven it seems that the Mormont's have it.

#19 Nictarion

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 04:55 AM

When it comes to supernatural aspect, we have no proof whatsoever to say that Daenerys is in any way more special than the other Targaryens. For everything she has done by now, someone else has done before her, plain and simple.

I would say her hatching the petrified dragons eggs was special, as GRRM called it a miracle. The Targaryens of Westeros hatched their dragon eggs from Balerion and the dragons they brought with them from Valyria. They were fresh, not thousands of years old and turned to stone like Dany's. She literally brought an extinct species back to life, something no one else in her family was able to do for 150 years.

Also, I don't know of any other Targaryens that spent the night in a pyre and survived.

Edited by Nictarion, 09 March 2014 - 04:58 AM.


#20 harry_dresden

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 05:01 AM

Yeah what Dany did was a miracle.

 

But where did said miracle come from?

 

It hasn't been properly explained to us yet.

 

I mean, its not like Dany took a shit and produced those dragons.

 

And note: I am saying that there is still a possibility that Dany might be "special" even amongst Targaryens. Let's hold off like acting like things are definitive until we know the truth for certain.


Edited by harry_dresden, 09 March 2014 - 05:06 AM.