Why are the Valyrians so fair-skinned?

[Hodor the Articulate]

I don't know if GRRM meant for this, but I've always taken the Valyrians to have incomplete albinism. The violet eyes are an obvious indicator.

[OnlyOne]

Color of skin is due to how much melanin your skin produces to protect you from damaging UVA and UVB sunlight.

As to why Martin has the Targaryens pale skinned is a question easily answered. He's a history buff-pale skinned white men have overthrown many a people. It's just that simple.

[Eyron Stark]

Really good sunscreen? Magical perma-sunscreen? the possibilities are endless

[Lord Reaver]

If you're a slave-holding culture with magical WMD's, you don't need sunscreen, magical or not. You have slaves to hold a parasol everywhere you go.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because evolution takes many, many generations. Way more than the 5,000 years alluded to in the human case.

Evolution takes a long time. I imagine the ancestors of Europeans were brownish for a long time before they adjustment to low UV levels.

Actually they were sub-saharan black. And they didn't adjust to low UV levels, they tapped that hot piece of neanderthalian ass with the fair hair and the blue eyes.

Europeans have a tad neanderthalian genes, most of which govern skin and hair color. Same for the asians, only with the homo erectus. Yes, the only original homo sapiens are the african ones :cool4:

[Ser Lepus]

Because evolution takes many, many generations. Way more than the 5,000 years alluded to in the human case.

Actually they were sub-saharan black. And they didn't adjust to low UV levels, they tapped that hot piece of neanderthalian ass with the fair hair and the blue eyes.

Europeans have a tad neanderthalian genes, most of which govern skin and hair color. Same for the asians, only with the homo erectus. Yes, the only original homo sapiens are the african ones :cool4:

Recent studies claim that Anatomically Modern Human and Neanderthals should be considered two sub-species of the Homo Sapiens species, and not two separated species.

As for the Asians, they have Neanderthal ancestry too, not Homo Erectus. The people from Indonesia and Papua/New Guinea have Denisovan ancestry (the Denisovans were the East Asian cousins of the Neanderthals).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Recent studies claim that Anatomically Modern Human and Neanderthals should be considered two sub-species of the Homo Sapiens species, and not two separated species.

As for the Asians, they have Neanderthal ancestry too, not Homo Erectus. The people from Indonesia and Papua/New Guinea have Denisovan ancestry (the Denisovans were the East Asian cousins of the Neanderthals).

Thanks for the information, didn't knew that. Nor the specifics in case of the Asians.

[Darkbringer]

Because evolution takes many, many generations. Way more than the 5,000 years alluded to in the human case.

Actually they were sub-saharan black. And they didn't adjust to low UV levels, they tapped that hot piece of neanderthalian ass with the fair hair and the blue eyes.

Europeans have a tad neanderthalian genes, most of which govern skin and hair color. Same for the asians, only with the homo erectus. Yes, the only original homo sapiens are the african ones :cool4:

Once they stop changing their story I'll believe them. Don't get me wrong, evolutionary history I'd interesting and important, but every time they find a new mummy it changes everything. Never heard that fair coloring came from Neanderthals, do you have a link to that? Anyway, as far as I have heard, the majority of the human race was light brown for most of its history. Black and white skin are the extremes, built for extreme climate. And yes , the way melanin is grouped in black skin is very different to brown skin, apparently. What you call sub Saharan black has only been in the majority of southern Africa for about a thousand years. Before that it was lighter brown people: IE Kalahari bushmen, pygmies and Khoisan, amongst others. They were all pushed out or overrun during the Bantu expansion.

[NorthernXY]

I'm of the belief that the Valyrians are descended from the Daynes. A son or exiled branch left Westeros long ago to escape any future Other attacks. Hence why they share common physical traits and over time the story of the Last Hero was morphed in Azor Ahai. Centuries of inbreeding would lead to all of them sharing the silver hair and purple eyes when it is a common but not always a trait of the Daynes. Ashara had violet eyes but dark hair, Arthur looked and Edric ("Ned") looks more like a typical Valyrian, but not exactly like them.

Never was of the belief the Valyrian Freehold lasted 5,000 years yet only in the last thousand did they start moving west. The oldest Free City of Valantis is only ~1,000 years old, not very old for an "empire" that was already 4,000 years old and could cover vast distances quickly with their dragons.

Because evolution takes many, many generations. Way more than the 5,000 years alluded to in the human case.

Not really, I'm a biochemist and after about 10 generations of selectively breeding foxes, they'll start to take the characteristics of dogs. This is in terms of selective breeding for being like a dog, docile and not "wild", link. Selective breeding can change a species' traits quite quickly. Chihuahuas are 100% descended from wolves, no coyote, no fox, and no other small dog like species in there.

[Lord Reaver]

Not really, I'm a biochemist and after about 10 generations of selectively breeding foxes, they'll start to take the characteristics of dogs. This is in terms of selective breeding for being like a dog, docile and not "wild", link. Selective breeding can change a species' traits quite quickly. Chihuahuas are 100% descended from wolves, no coyote, no fox, and no other small dog like species in there.

Yes, but the crucial thing is the degree of selective "pressure". In artificial breeding, this is pretty high, compared to the usual circumstances in the wild.

However, that said, there can be situations in which such pressures become great also in nature, so called bottle-necks. Statistical analyses seem to support theories that suggest it is in such "bottlenecks" most of the evolutionary "jumps" tend to take place.

[The Vulture King]

I'm of the belief that the Valyrians are descended from the Daynes. A son or exiled branch left Westeros long ago to escape any future Other attacks. Hence why they share common physical traits and over time the story of the Last Hero was morphed in Azor Ahai. Centuries of inbreeding would lead to all of them sharing the silver hair and purple eyes when it is a common but not always a trait of the Daynes. Ashara had violet eyes but dark hair, Arthur looked and Edric ("Ned") looks more like a typical Valyrian, but not exactly like them.

Never was of the belief the Valyrian Freehold lasted 5,000 years yet only in the last thousand did they start moving west. The oldest Free City of Valantis is only ~1,000 years old, not very old for an "empire" that was already 4,000 years old and could cover vast distances quickly with their dragons.

Not really, I'm a biochemist and after about 10 generations of selectively breeding foxes, they'll start to take the characteristics of dogs. This is in terms of selective breeding for being like a dog, docile and not "wild", link. Selective breeding can change a species' traits quite quickly. Chihuahuas are 100% descended from wolves, no coyote, no fox, and no other small dog like species in there.

All Valyrians being descendants of Daynes is a interesting idea..... but i don't think it can really work. For one person or even a small family group to start a whole empire is a little far fetched I think. Also we know from the books that the Valyrians started out as sheep herders on Essos not in Westeros. Maybe as far back as even Old Ghis.

I think it would be cool if all of the Valyrians traits started only once they started there bond with dragons.

I would imagine that they would have had to have been of darker complexion from where they come from in the world. My theory is that the whole "blood of dragon" is actually pretty close to what happened. I think Valyrians might have actually did some short of blood magic and injected themselves with dragon blood some how. This in turn gave them control over dragons but also some odd side affects silver hair/ purple eyes and the occasional dragon baby. =)

I don't buy the whole real world cases of deformed babies as a explanation or that Danny's was simply dark magic used by Mirri Maz to explain dragon babies. Yes I think she was the cause of the baby being born dead but I do not think she made the baby deformed she just awoke what could have already happened to any Targ woman. I think that we keep learning about more and more cases it has to a Targ "side affect"

[Ocelot]

That's an interesting theory about the "blood of the dragon" and it causing "dragon babies" like Rhaego. We know from TPatQ that Rhaenyra gave birth to a "dragon baby" as well despite there being no maegi around.

[benalapin]

Well put.

If they were dark skinned, then people would probably focus on their many negative traits and call that racism.

That is well put as well. I can easily say that GRRM is being racist to light-haired, light-eyed people by calling them incestuous slavers that were cruel to everyone else.

[devilish]

The Valyrian Peninsula was located in a warm, sunny Mediterranean climate, yet the Valyrians were distinguished by their pale skin and hair. Meanwhile, the Rhoynar, who originate in a region to the north of the Valyrian Peninsula, are olive/brown-skinned. This does not make a lot of sense, and could be seen as unconsciously racist (mighty sorcerers and conquerors must be white). What are your thoughts?

Skin color has nothing to do to where a person originate from. The red haired are said to originate from the Middle East. In the bible, Esau (Jacob's brother) is said to be red haired.

Mediterranean people are darker skinned due to the fact that the Arabs dominated the southern regions of Europe for centuries. Spain, Sicily, Malta and Greece were all under Arab rule which encouraged immigration from Saudi Arabia to North Africa and from North Africa to Europe. As you well know the darker skin is the dominant gene over the lighter skin.

The Targaryens didn't had that issue since they practiced incest.

[Elkendar]

I think it's not unconscious racism. I think he had the cool idea for the targaryen's first and then gave them a homeland later. From my understanding of the parallels aren't they supposed to be Frankish or Roman? I think planting them near mediterranean peoples was a just because that's where they would fit, and GRRM fleshed it out after that.

The fact that he kept them white may be seen as slightly racist, but my ideas are purely speculation. I personally am of the opinion that GRRM the person or his books are in no way racist.

A more cynical friend of mine was drawing parallels between the valyrians as an aryan master race thing, so take from that what you will. A point of his that I did think holds some water is that its the group of white people who pleb stomp all the others in essos back in the day, and who have all the best magic and tech.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Changed mind about post, making it a topic.

[Bael's Bastard]

It is not assured that they would have spent significant time in the sun. Even today there are parts of the world where non-noble people cover themselves from the sun so as not to tan.

[Rodrik of Dorne]

Easy one. Valyrians came from the northern reaches of Essos, and before they developed enough melanin they started slaving other peoples. The slaves did all the hard work, under the sun.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

The Valyrian Peninsula was located in a warm, sunny Mediterranean climate, yet the Valyrians were distinguished by their pale skin and hair. Meanwhile, the Rhoynar, who originate in a region to the north of the Valyrian Peninsula, are olive/brown-skinned. This does not make a lot of sense, and could be seen as unconsciously racist (mighty sorcerers and conquerors must be white). What are your thoughts?

Agreed. That never made sense to me. They should look more like the Dothraki. And I never qot why the Quartheen are so white that theyre called "Milk Men" by the Dothraki. They live in South Essos! It must be really hot over there. Lots of sun.

[Ratmancampidori]

Am I the only one that thinks G.R.R.M just thought Blonde Purple haired Dragon riders were cool?