Weirwood and Obsidian

[Lord Martin]

This is the second post in a series designed to explore the Ice and Fire parallels in the text.

Part 1 on Warging and Dragonbonding is here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105378-warging-and-dragon-bonding/

Part 3 on Religion, gender and dualism symbols are here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105385-dualism-in-religion-and-gender-symbolism/

Now for obsidian and weirwood:

Black and white presents its own natural duality and so it is fitting that Obsidian (black) and Weirwood (white) have some parallels. Most notably, both weirwood and obsidian can be used to transmit information over great distances. Secondly, both appear to be effective weapons against their opposites. Obsidian kills white walkers while Dragons appear vulnerable to weirwood. Both are activated by blood and have additional ties to the color red.

By now we are well aware of the use of weirwoods by the COTF. The “weirnet” allows those who can access it to see what any other weirwood can see. This is why Bran can whisper to Theon through the weirwoods, why Ned seemingly heard his unborn son’s voice and why Bran sees through the Weirwood tree in Winterfell’s Godswood.

Recall Bran’s final vision there:

Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can' t. Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone. After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them. Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don' t, " but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth ... but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

The bronze sickle suggests these are old Starks from before the Andal Invasion. The blood seems to be the trees first “memory” so it seems that blood awakens the Weirwood trees or activates them.

There are similarities for obsidian. Sam in AFFC:

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?

It appears the candles are lit using blood, hence the sharp edges:

“What are these glass candles?” asked Roone.

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper... only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”

So blood acts as an activation agent for both Obsidian and Weirwood.

We also know that Obsidian kills the Others. Sam showed us that. It has been speculated that the vision Bran sees above of the “dark eyed youth” who is making arrows out of Weirwood is “Ice Eyes” Stark, brother of the King Who Knelt. The theory is that he was making these arrows to slay the dragons.

We also know that weirwoods turn to stone when they die. Obsidian is fire turned to stone in the real world. Could it be that obsidian is the petrified remains of dragons? Could this explain why there is so much obsidian on Dragonstone? Or is it created by dragons somehow?

Lastly, I think it’s worth noting the relationship each plays to the color red. Obsidian (in our world) is made from red magma or lava that cools and hardens. So the red becomes black. Paralleling that, the weirwood is white but it oozes red sap and grows red leaves, the white becomes red.

Note that the COTF used both Obsidian and Weirwood when they went to battle

"They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

Discussion Points:

The COTF appear to be a force for balance, those who sing the song of earth. Hence it makes sense they would equip themselves with arms with "fire" and "ice" sides.

Interestingly, the color scheme of black (obsidian), white (weirwood) and red (blood) appears in several key places in the series namely: The House of Black and White, The BWB Lair under the Hill and Lord Bloodraven’s lair up north.

Marywn says that dreams can be affected by obsidian candles... and we know Bloodraven used the Weirnet to give Bran visions as well.

[King Jaime Lannister]

Great post!

I wonder exactly how Bloodraven imposed the dreams onto Bran.... He wasn't in front of a weirwood.

[Lord Martin]

Great post!

I wonder exactly how Bloodraven imposed the dreams onto Bran.... He wasn't in front of a weirwood.

Thank so much!

I'm not sure obsidian candles or weirwoods required the receiver of the vision to be there. From Marwyn:

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

I theorize that weirwood works the same. So Bloodraven can use the weirwood that is growing through him, to give Bran visions. Much like a glass candle could be used to give people visions.

I toy with the idea that Quaithe uses a class candle to appear to Dany in Slaver's Bay.... but its pure conjecture based on the fact that she references them earlier and there is mention of glass candles burning in Quarth in the Home of Urrathon Nightwalker. But admittedly, that's pure conjecture.

[Fool of a Book]

Add the part where Drogon attacks the weirwood part of the door in Dany's vision. IMO Dragons can detect warging/seeing/skingchanging especially when weirwood is part of the mix.

[Lord Martin]

Add the part where Drogon attacks the weirwood part of the door in Dany's vision. IMO Dragons can detect warging/seeing/skingchanging especially when weirwood is part of the mix.

Interesting... when I do Dragons vs. Others, I will try to give it a full measure.

But nice catch... the scene states that Drogon started chewing on the "wood." I am not sure if "ebony" is also a wood in GRRM-world, but it could be the weirwood.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I noticed this yesterday and it was the first time it stood out for me. Is it just a good line or is it something more...

"His Grace is hunting across the Blackwater," Ned said, wondering how a man could live his whole life a few days ride from the Red Keep and still have no notion what his king looked like. Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth. "I am Lord Eddard Stark, the King's Hand. Tell me who you are and what you know of these raiders."

[White Ravens]

Interesting... when I do Dragons vs. Others, I will try to give it a full measure.

But nice catch... the scene states that Drogon started chewing on the "wood." I am not sure if "ebony" is also a wood in GRRM-world, but it could be the weirwood.

Ebony is mentioned several times in the books. Daenarys sits on an ebony bench when she holds audience in her pyramid. The doors of the House of Black and White are ebony and weirwood (one door is ebony with a white weirwood moon face and the other is weirwood with a black ebony moon face), and I think Tobho Mott's door to his smithy has a hunting scene carved from ebony and weirwood.

[HannibalStark]

pretty sure obsidian is obsidian and not dragon bone...hence dragon glass. Much is made of the fact that it chips...where as dragon bone seems pretty freaking hard and durable.

but I guess one could say obsidian is fire made stone.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Other place where this combo shows up is in the shop of Tobho Mohtt. Ebony/Weirwood doors as well, and some pretty intense mythical creature imagery all over the place.

[LmL]

Just wanted to say this is an outstanding post, Lord Martin. I'm not sure why excellent research and theorizing such as this gets 8 replies, while threads devoted to trivial topics (which are fun and have their place) get dozens of replies... or worse yet threads that devolve into arguing over decorum which go on and on... Anyway, posts like these are what make the forums rewarding for literature fans who are viewing ASOIAF as a masterpiece of, well, literature.

I have a bunch of thoughts along these lines, but I'm working up a good sized essay of my own which will eventually dovetail into this a bit. Ill be flattered to hear your thoughts and discuss some of these ideas you're looking into here with you. Great work, part 1 as well. Keep it up.

[Lord Martin]

Just wanted to say this is an outstanding post, Lord Martin. I'm not sure why excellent research and theorizing such as this gets 8 replies, while threads devoted to trivial topics (which are fun and have their place) get dozens of replies... or worse yet threads that devolve into arguing over decorum which go on and on... Anyway, posts like these are what make the forums rewarding for literature fans who are viewing ASOIAF as a masterpiece of, well, literature.

I have a bunch of thoughts along these lines, but I'm working up a good sized essay of my own which will eventually dovetail into this a bit. Ill be flattered to hear your thoughts and discuss some of these ideas you're looking into here with you. Great work, part 1 as well. Keep it up.

Thanks LIL!

I don't mind... a lot of it is how well the OP curates and cares for the thread. If I kept posting every day, it'd linger at the top and more people would see it, chime in and the cycle feeds itself. I was really bad at that in my earlier years. Plus theories evolve. But I like to have these as a repository for quotes and general lines of thinking that can be useful later. I'm trying to do better w/ that Stark thread. But its tough at times.

Anyway, do you think anyone else could be receiving dreams or visions via the weirwoods or glass candles?

I sometimes wonder if Jaime's dream on the stump of the weirwood before he rescues Brienne was a vision from the "old gods." They may have foreseen an important role for her still vis-a-vi the Stark girls.

I also wonder about some of Theon's visions when he is temporary Lord of Winterfell. I heard a rumor that Ned's bed was made of weirwood... but I never saw the text to support it.

[LmL]

Mithras has a great thread about Theon's dreams, which I coincidentally just read. Check it out:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104153-theons-dreams-in-winterfell/

As far as the dreams, I think they all have to be suspect, but I don't think they are all "implanted." The dead greenseers "go into the rocks and trees"," and we don't really know how much awareness they retain. I tnk it's possible to glimpse pasts and futures simply by laying your head on a stump and going to sleep with very important things on your mind... Dreams come from your subconscious, and your subconscious is receptive to things your active mind is not. To whatever extent magic is real in real life or fantasy, your subconscious would be a great candidate to interface with it. Targs also have a long history of prophetic dreams, so unless greenseers have been punking them THIS ENTIRE TIME, Dany's occasional prophetic dreams have an explanation. Quaithe is definitely sending visions to Dany, and communicating through the stars, we know that. I think it's likely both are happening.

Clearly, parts of Bran's dreams are from BR - but that may be only part of it, like BR is implanting himself (as the raven) into Bran's natural dream. The rest of the dream is Bran's subconscious interpreting what BR is telling him, and crossing it with things he's seen himself (scenes of Jaime and Cersei). I don't think BR produces a documentary on is iMac and then plays it in Bran's mind - more like implanting ideas in his mind, and obviously speaking through the raven. The speech may be all that Br can control, and the imagery is coming from Bran's mind. Hard to say. The glass candles allow people to "enter" other's dreams, if I recall. That's different from "creating" other's dreams.

[LmL]

Anyone else receiving them? Hmm... What about Mel? Could that be Bloodraven, or more likely Quaithe, who (spoiler alert) may well be Shierra Seastar, mother of Melissandre with Bloodraven? Note than Quiathe speaks Westerosi common tongue when she first meets Dany. If you are unfamiliar with BR + SS = Mel, check out radiowesteros.com , it's in the essay section. By Yolkboy. You've probably read it.

[WeaselPie]

I enjoy your threads LM. If I may...

Dany at the HoTU, drinking shade of the evening, black tree with blue leaves. She later encounters the black/white doors

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Bran in the Cave, eating weirwood paste, white tree with red leaves. He passed through the Black Gate.

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. "I don't feel any different. What happens next?

I suspect the "ebony" on the doors is from the sacred grove with the black trees and blue leaves where the HotU is built. Certainly they have as magical a power as the weirwoods.

Further, Arya passes through the HoBaW doors, the pool appears to contain a dark red liquid from this passage, weirwood leaves?

In the center of the temple she found the water she had heard; a pool ten feet across, black as ink and lit by dim red candles. Beside it sat a young man in a silvery cloak, weeping softly. She watched him dip a hand in the water, sending scarlet ripples racing across the pool. When he drew his fingers back he sucked them, one by one. He must be thirsty. There were stone cups along the rim of the pool. Arya filled one and brought it to him, so he could drink.... "You're stabbed," she blurted, but the man paid her no mind.

[WeaselPie]

Anyway, do you think anyone else could be receiving dreams or visions via the weirwoods or glass candles?

Absolutely, the Ghost of High Heart for one.

[LmL]

WeaselPie, you're hitting on something I've noticed: weirwood and the warlock trees are like alternate versions of the same thing. Black bark vs. white, red leaves vs blue, the long lives of the undying and the long lives of the greenseers, the paste and the shade of the evening...

It all makes me wonder if there is a twisted analog to the cotf. Snorri had light elves and dark elves in his Eddas; I wonder if there might be a dualism there as well. Perhaps the tall elves are the old ones beneath Lengii? They do have those golden eyes that see in the dark, and the COTF are the oldest race we know of, akin to the 'Old Ones' perhaps?

[WeaselPie]

WeaselPie, you're hitting on something I've noticed: weirwood and the warlock trees are like alternate versions of the same thing. Black bark vs. white, red leaves vs blue, the long lives of the undying and the long lives of the greenseers, the paste and the shade of the evening...

It all makes me wonder if there is a twisted analog to the cotf. Snorri had light elves and dark elves in his Eddas; I wonder if there might be a dualism there as well. Perhaps the tall elves are the old ones beneath Lengii? They do have those golden eyes that see in the dark, and the COTF are the oldest race we know of, akin to the 'Old Ones' perhaps?

Both the paste and the shade of the evening awaken personal memories and bring visions that are more like collective memories, and we know how important memory is to the CotF. A definite parallel.. twisted maybe in that it almost seems the Undying have stolen the magic in some way... the corrupted blue human heart Dany sees would be explained. They're humans abusing magic they shouldn't be, IMO, to try and achieve immortality (Undying).

In a further twist, if the red pool at the HoBaW is indeed made of weirwood leaves, those bring death, while the blue drink of the shade of the evening brings immortality.

[LmL]

Both the paste and the shade of the evening awaken personal memories and bring visions that are more like collective memories, and we know how important memory is to the CotF. A definite parallel.. twisted maybe in that it almost seems the Undying have stolen the magic in some way... the corrupted blue human heart Dany sees would be explained. They're humans abusing magic they shouldn't be, IMO, to try and achieve immortality (Undying).

In a further twist, if the red pool at the HoBaW is indeed made of weirwood leaves, those bring death, while the blue drink of the shade of the evening brings immortality.

A twisted sort of immortality, more like an un-living than an un-dying.

[WeaselPie]

A twisted sort of immortality, more like an un-living than an un-dying.

Ah, excellent way to put it!

[Lord Martin]

Mithras has a great thread about Theon's dreams, which I coincidentally just read. Check it out:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104153-theons-dreams-in-winterfell/

Thx, I'll check it out.

As far as the dreams, I think they all have to be suspect, but I don't think they are all "implanted." The dead greenseers "go into the rocks and trees"," and we don't really know how much awareness they retain. I tnk it's possible to glimpse pasts and futures simply by laying your head on a stump and going to sleep with very important things on your mind... Dreams come from your subconscious, and your subconscious is receptive to things your active mind is not. To whatever extent magic is real in real life or fantasy, your subconscious would be a great candidate to interface with it. Targs also have a long history of prophetic dreams, so unless greenseers have been punking them THIS ENTIRE TIME, Dany's occasional prophetic dreams have an explanation. Quaithe is definitely sending visions to Dany, and communicating through the stars, we know that. I think it's likely both are happening.

I agree and those are two very good examples. But it'd be interesting to see who else could be getting them. Is Jaime getting them? I really like WealePie's thought on GoHH. But whose sending her those visions? They seem very focused and accurate. Has she mastered a skill or been given a gift? Or is it just the grove of trees sending her visions?

Clearly, parts of Bran's dreams are from BR - but that may be only part of it, like BR is implanting himself (as the raven) into Bran's natural dream. The rest of the dream is Bran's subconscious interpreting what BR is telling him, and crossing it with things he's seen himself (scenes of Jaime and Cersei). I don't think BR produces a documentary on is iMac and then plays it in Bran's mind - more like implanting ideas in his mind, and obviously speaking through the raven. The speech may be all that Br can control, and the imagery is coming from Bran's mind. Hard to say. The glass candles allow people to "enter" other's dreams, if I recall. That's different from "creating" other's dreams.

If I recall it wasn't just enter dreams but also send visions.

What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

So lots of dreams could be highly suspect!