Panos Targaryen Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Some people complain due to the fact that the Valyrians and the Qartheen, as well as other Essosi peoples have pale skin, while living in a very hot and and almost desert-like climate. Some even said this shows unconscious racism from GRRM ("the mighty dragonlords had to be white, huh?" or something similar).However, in the TV series we see that most people in Essos, especially Slaver's Bay, are dark skinned, with many different skin tones. Guess what? A lot of people complained that the scene in the season 3 finale where the freed slaves lift up Daenerys and call her Mhysa is racist, because it shows a white, blond and pale person being "worshipped" by dark skinned people. So, what's it going to be? Should the Essosi be dark skinned or light skinned? Cause both are racist apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Are you talking about the show or the books? Also, you are taking a very complex issue and over-simplifying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 Are you talking about the show or the books? Also, you are taking a very complex issue and over-simplifying it. Both. People complain about racism in the books, where some Essosi are light-skinned, and they also complain about the dark-skinned ones in the series. And to be honest i don't think it's a complex issue, merely a very minor one, blown out of proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze94 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 People will always find some sort of racism in everything. It is best to ignore them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think if you wanted to have a relevant discussion about the racism and colorism you would have worded your initial post differently. Your tone is off-putting and suggests that you are out to make some sort of point rather than engage in a meaningful discussion. Ultimately, GRRM can write the books as he likes, and D&D can make the show as they like, and I can make my own judgments about what it says about them that they make some of the choices they make or don't make. All of us can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think if you wanted to have a relevant discussion about the racism and colorism you would have worded your initial post differently. Your tone is off-putting and suggests that you are out to make some sort of point rather than engage in a meaningful discussion. Ultimately, GRRM can write the books as he likes, and D&D can make the show as they like, and I can make my own judgments about what it says about them that they make some of the choices they make or don't make. All of us can. There is no point in my post. It's just the beginning for a discussion. Did you see my opinion anywhere in the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberto Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Both. People complain about racism in the books, where some Essosi are light-skinned, and they also complain about the dark-skinned ones in the series. And to be honest i don't think it's a complex issue, merely a very minor one, blown out of proportion. If you think this is a minor and uncomplex issue, either you lack study or are deliberately simplifying the matter to fit it into your world perspective. When a topic starts like this it's usually beyond salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 If you think this is a minor and uncomplex issue, either you lack study or are deliberately simplifying the matter to fit it into your world perspective. When a topic starts like this it's usually beyond salvation. You really believe that the scene where the slaves lift Daenerys up and call her "Mhysa" is a depiction of racism and white domination over non-white people? Or the fact that the Valyrians are light-skinned and blond also racist? That's all there is to it really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaxis Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's an odd complaint. Essos has people of all colors, as it is an enormous continent that stretches from west to east, north to south, contains deserts, mountains, forests, island chains... The Yunkaii slaves are not multiracial in the show for practical filiming reasons. The scene was being filmed in Morocco, and they needed hundreds of extras. Simple solution: hire local Moroccans. As for the books, only the Qartheen and Valyrians are/were pale or fair. Ghiscari, Lhazareen, Dothraki, and some Volantene carry a wide range of darker skin colors. All in all I am not sure where a valid complaint may originate from. Not to mention racism is a very real thing, now and in the past. It would be strange to write a book based on realism and history without depicting racism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panos Targaryen Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's an odd complaint. Essos has people of all colors, as it is an enormous continent that stretches from west to east, north to south, contains deserts, mountains, forests, island chains... The Yunkaii slaves are not multiracial in the show for practical filiming reasons. The scene was being filmed in Morocco, and they needed hundreds of extras. Simple solution: hire local Moroccans. As for the books, only the Qartheen and Valyrians are/were pale or fair. Ghiscari, Lhazareen, Dothraki, and some Volantene carry a wide range of darker skin colors. All in all I am not sure where a valid complaint may originate from. Not to mention racism is a very real thing, now and in the past. It would be strange to write a book based on realism and history without depicting racism. Actually, racism is a relatively recent phenomenon, along with the definition of "race". In the middle ages racism was only invented to justify the slave trades of the East. Yes, antisemitism and ruthless class discrimination did exist, but the racism that we see today began to emerge in the late 18th century. ASOIAF is set in a medieval world, so racism there, as well as a concept of race, shouldn't really be that present, at least not like it is in our society. Remember, people had no concept of nations or countries back then, only kingdoms and multinational empires, so ironically, people were possibly less racist back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's an odd complaint. Essos has people of all colors, as it is an enormous continent that stretches from west to east, north to south, contains deserts, mountains, forests, island chains... The Yunkaii slaves are not multiracial in the show for practical filiming reasons. The scene was being filmed in Morocco, and they needed hundreds of extras. Simple solution: hire local Moroccans. As for the books, only the Qartheen and Valyrians are/were pale or fair. Ghiscari, Lhazareen, Dothraki, and some Volantene carry a wide range of darker skin colors. All in all I am not sure where a valid complaint may originate from. Not to mention racism is a very real thing, now and in the past. It would be strange to write a book based on realism and history without depicting racism. I agree that the scene was shot that way due to location and practicality, which is why I don't get hung up on it. But the picture and the image it creates can be an issue. The whole white savior complex is a well-known device that is prevalent in movies and tv programs. I don't think this was D&D's intent, but you know what they say about good intentions and all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 If Targs weren't white people would be complaining that it's racist because they're depicted as cartoonish inhuman maniacal villains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaxis Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I agree that the scene was shot that way due to location and practicality, which is why I don't get hung up on it. But the picture and the image it creates can be an issue. The whole white savior complex is a well-known device that is prevalent in movies and tv programs. I don't think this was D&D's intent, but you know what they say about good intentions and all of that. Yeah, they should have known better than to make the scene look that way. I think it would have been a whole lot more acceptable if they didn't include the crowdsurfing and birds-eye zoom out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tquinn BC Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 The freaking Targs have silver hair and purple fucking eyes. What race of people is that? were all overthinking this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It's like "Elsa from Frozen should be black because...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Being from the real world I find it a little strange that there are no racial tensions in Martin's fantasy world. Maybe it's only in fantasy worlds that this can happen? I thought it was kind of cute that the Summer Islanders called Samwell Tarly "Black Sam". The lack of racial tension is made up for by the ethnic tensions that abound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Herman Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 As Panos already pointed out, racism as we know it today didn't really exist in the middle ages, if a black person lived in europe they might be seen as strange, or as an outsider, but they wouldn't be viewed as an inferior. Like nationalism racism is a relatively new concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Well it is worth considering that people who live in the free cities not all of them may be "white" as we see them, but they may have access to sunscreen-type products? Also, wealthier cultures tend to be more "inside" folk. Just because their skin is lighter doesn't mean they are of a different race. There are plenty of black people who are lighter than dark white people. Just identifying a culture's skin tone doesn't make them racist, but discrimination would, and if I remember correctly, the slavers in slavers bay were just as tan as their slaves. I don't see any racism in these books, just different identifiable characteristics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkDragon Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Some people complain due to the fact that the Valyrians and the Qartheen, as well as other Essosi peoples have pale skin, while living in a very hot and and almost desert-like climate. Some even said this shows unconscious racism from GRRM ("the mighty dragonlords had to be white, huh?" or something similar). However, in the TV series we see that most people in Essos, especially Slaver's Bay, are dark skinned, with many different skin tones. Guess what? A lot of people complained that the scene in the season 3 finale where the freed slaves lift up Daenerys and call her Mhysa is racist, because it shows a white, blond and pale person being "worshipped" by dark skinned people. So, what's it going to be? Should the Essosi be dark skinned or light skinned? Cause both are racist apparently. To point out their skin color at all seems racist to me, to be honest. To me, Daenerys seems more of an acting quip against the Romans (Valyrian was a roman, whooped by the Persians) and their constant need to 'civilize' the societies around them... through blood and iron. Edit: misspelled Daenerys name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 To point out their skin color at all seems racist to me, to be honest. To me, Daenerys seems more of an acting quip against the Romans (Valyrian was a roman, whooped by the Persians) and their constant need to 'civilize' the societies around them... through blood and iron. Edit: misspelled Daenerys name. Pointing out somebody's skin color isn't racist in itself, but holding it against them or becoming too proud because of the color seems racist. I don't think it was the Persians who did the Romans in anyways. They whooped up on the greeks but the romans had pretty much the whole "known world". The Romans couldn't afford their huge empire and fought too many wars and then the "barbarians" further weakened them before they split into east/west. Then the crusades was what really did in the Holy Roman Empire after the Arabs couldn't be beaten. The racist question stems from the fact that racism is a modern phenomena that many people just can't seem to get over. If you talk about somebody's skin color these days you are automatically a racist (especially if you're white). I say not so, and even the most "barbaric" people in the novels seem to be the wildlings, and they're white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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