Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[sifth]

Rationalization. Simply put they both have allowed people to be sacrificed to Gods. Although, Stannis has done it more and burning alive is probably more painful than drowning.

killing criminal and traitors vs killing people because "this is just what we do".

seems like apples and oranges if you ask me.

[Metopheles]

Burning people for their blood is of course something honourable. Especially if they haven't seen their first nameday.

[sifth]

Burning people for their blood is of course something honourable. Especially if they haven't seen their first nameday.

Think you're getting show Stannis mixed up with book Stannis, lol

either way it's a mute point because it never happened.

[Metopheles]

What the fuck?

I hope I didn't give you a spoiler there :unsure:

Dance

In A Dance With Dragons he will burn people for their blood. He wanted to burn Edric already, but he will burn Mance for King's Blood and intends to burn his son afterwards, now that he is the king of the wildlings.

Again, sorry if I gave you a spoiler :/

[Scorched_Air]

Sorry, Skinchanger, but Dany's kindness had nothing to do with her "downfall" (actually a rise-up in the long-term, I believe).

At least not the kindness of not killing her children. The attacks of the Harpy's Sons had nothing to do with her flying away on Drogon's back.

Drogon came because of the show at Draznak's Pit, so maybe the kindness that provoked her "downfall" (again, this term is badly picked)

was the kindness of reopening the pits.

Similarly, Jon's "downfall" (falling down face-first into the snow after being stabbed) might be a rebirth in smoke and salt just as Dany's.

I think we agree that both character are strangely connected (quantum entanglement?) over the thousand of leagues that separate them.

[OnlyOne]

Betrayal. How can it possibly be seen any other way.

[Metopheles]

How many times will this thread be resurrected, I wonder?

Just stroll through the pages before restarting the same discussion over and over again -.-

[Hippocras]

This thread's main purpose, I now believe, is to prove the Ironborn philosophy that what was dead may never die.

The thread that never dies.

[Metopheles]

This thread's main purpose, I now believe, is to prove the Ironborn philosophy that what was dead may never die.

The thread that never dies.

But rises again harder and stronger...more like dimmer and boringer

Theon Greyjoy, definition of a scapegoat and the guy that everybody wants to blame and loves to blame for every beef they have with the story and their own lives. Give that poor man a rest. And let that rest be a bit longer than 2 weeks this time

[Iben]

you can't betray your master. Because you are forced to be loyal to them. You say you are loyal to them because they would punish you if you didn't. But you actually are not loyal to them, only to their whips. In your mind and soul, your loyalty lies to you. You are forced to say you won't betray. If you then "betray" them, you didn't really betray them. You just escaped for your own good. It would be somewhat sadomasochistic if you bravely return to your chains and whips. And that would be a betrayal. To yourself.

So as, I believe Lee-Sensei was it, said, if you are forced to be loyal, then you are not really loyal. Just forced. Like a slave. His escape is justified and a betrayal never happened, because there never was a real trust.

This!

Ultimately it doesn't matter if the Starks cared about him or treated him well. House Stark isn't the Westerosi equivalent of foster care. They didn't forcibly take a nine year old child from his family (a loving mother and probably sister), his culture and home because his brothers disciplined him physically or because they disapproved of the Iron Way. Ned took him because he needed a hostage for his father's good behavior and to punish him with if he didn't.

Any kindness the Stark offer up to their hostage is essentially self serving either as an insurance for his father's good behavior (Balon is a shite father, but I doubt he had tolerate Ramsay level bad treatment of Theon) or to instill northern values and loyalty to House Stark in who they believe to be the heir apparent to the Iron Islands.

A slave doesn't owe his master loyalty - no matter how well his master deigns to treat him. Neither does a prisoner of war owe his captor his loyalty no matter how well they deign to treat him. Nor does a hostage owe his captors loyalty just because they deigned to treat him well (which in Theon's case can be disputed). Especially when this kindness is almost an intentional device in making him more receptive to their culture and them (loyalty).

Also it shows some of the hypocrisy of the southern Westerosi when they decry slavery (besides the general awful treatment of peasants) but endorses this practice. Ned rides out to Bear Island to carry out justice/behead Jorah the slaver while he has at home a little boy whose freedom he has taken away and whose life is his to take if he so deigns to/is called to do so. (remember strictly speaking Theon should be a subject to House Greyjoy's justice and not House Stark)

So no. I don't think Theon betrayed House Stark. Maybe Robb, but that's an entirely different question (who the issue of a possible case of Stockholm Syndrome always will cast a dark shadow over)

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

No . Theon wanted an alliance between the Greyjoys and the Starks. He wanted to be a Stark.

[Kate Poem]

This is blatant twisting.

The question that started the thread was, did Theon betray the Starks? Yes he did. This had nothing to do with whitewashing the Starks, it is simply fact.

I am helpless. Do You understand what means word "hostage"? If someone's behaviour will be bad, hostage will lost - something. In this case - head. Theon knew it. Every single soul in Winterfell knew it. Do. You. Understand?

Nine years old boy!

Theon Greyjoy, Ironborn from Pyke, he was'nt in the service of Starks. He owes them nothing. He was their - in some way - prisoner.

The betrayal. Nothing is that simple.

Family or jailers? Best friend or shitty father? To be heir of Seastone Chair or to be house knight in service of Starks, no kraken, no direwolf, nothing?

It is not simple, do You understand?

[Metopheles]

Please finally lock this thread.

[newbieone]

Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

That's a perspective thing. He did if you're focusing on Ned's rights and expectations as a foster father, basically from the perspective of the victors in Balon's Rebellion. He didn't if you look from a Greyjoy perspective, where Balon had been defeated at war and had to give his son up as a hostage. From a Greyjoy POV, you focus on the coercion/necessity aspect. From a Stark POV, you focus on, well, Ned's POV (whatever Ned did that was good, whatever Ned could 'rightly' expect etc.).

[TrueOrFalse]

(Really, Theon owed the Starks what Sansa owes the Lannisters. Nothing. But the Starks are the "good guys", so it's OMG Betrayal!).

:agree: Yep, this is it in a nutshell.

[Jonsnowisntdead]

But after Robb freed Theon, he chose to stay. He was no longer bound to the Starks, and yet he stayed.

He said he "wanted to be one of them". (giving a woman a tour of the basement/ she agreed) After he chooses to stay he realizes he will never really be "one of them". When returning to his father he realizes, he is not "one of them" either. He doesn't fit in with any group. his identity crisis is resolved after Reek/ bran/ heart tree experience. Realizing finally that he should have been more grateful for his somewhat melancholy existence. Anything is better than being Reek.

[INCBlackbird]

to betray someone you first need to owe them, Theon was a prisoner of the starks, he didn't owe them anything. prisoners don't owe their captors anything. it's as simple as that.