Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[Lee-Sensei]

Not true. He swore his word to Robb and promised to bring his father's help. He broke his promise. Sansa never promised the Lannisters anything.

I have a great deal of sympathy for Theon so you interpretation of my post is frankly bizarre. But sympathy does not make his actions right.

When did that happen? Do you have a quote?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh he must. I think that's what makes him such a compelling character. He survived. He has to live with all the choices he's made, most of which were pretty reprehensible. He has been reduced to his lowest form and gets to see first hand the consequences of treachery and ambition. Most characters, including the good ones, don't have that burden. Theon Greyjoy is the exception to Cersei's rule about the GoT.

Heh. A quote from a SDRE song fits nicely in here. It is based on a book from Grendel's point of view.

I Wanted To Be Them But Instead I Destroyed My Chance

Suede Scars And Time Is Right

I Wanted To See Them But Instead I Destroyed Myself

[Eli Stark]

This began as a thread about whether or not Theon should be forgiven and ended up essentially here. Was Theon a ward or prisoner? Did he love the Starks? Did they love him?

There are plenty of arguments both ways. At the end of the day, Robb should have realized what a complex situation he was sending Theon into. He should have realized that Theon being forced to choose between the Starks and his own family had a good chance of happening. In realizing that, he should not have sent Theon and listened to his mother on this one.

[Metopheles]

Theon gave his word in the TV show, not the book. And an oath sworn as a captive is no oath at all.

(Really, Theon owed the Starks what Sansa owes the Lannisters. Nothing. But the Starks are the "good guys", so it's OMG Betrayal!).

can't agree more.

[Metopheles]

The Starks never loved Theon. That is an outrageous lie. He was their captive and held as a normal hostage. He had no physical abuse, but certainly mental abuse. Catelyn hated him openly. Jon hated him, Bran... Robb was the exception.

But you will say now Catelyn was right not to trust him... Well he never betrayed them, yet Catelyn always mistrusted him. Now he betrays them and boom. But maybe this comes because he was always hated by them ? Talking about prejudices. Perhaps if they would have trusted him and accepted him, he would not have betrayed them.

You can't beat a dog for eating your shoes when he never did it and then when he does it one time go "See, I told you!"

And how are Catelyn's words ? Family, Duty, Honor.

Theon stayed true to his family

Theon stayed true to his duty

Theon dishonored him.

[Kate Poem]

Theon was a hostage. It is known. All Northern lords and all servants in Winterfell. He was not forstered from goodness of Starkish heart.

It was not friendly pact.

No.

[Hippocras]

When did that happen? Do you have a quote?

see "King of the North" chapter, the conversation at the Heart Tree when Robb decides to call the banners, and the discussion when he convinces Robb to send him to Pyke.

[Lee-Sensei]

see "King of the North" chapter, the conversation at the Heart Tree when Robb decides to call the banners, and the discussion when he convinces Robb to send him to Pyke.

None of that is in the books. You're thinking of the show.

[Hippocras]

None of that is in the books. You're thinking of the show.

He was definitely there at the heart tree, he was definitely there and joined in when Robb was declared King, and he definitely made a promise to bring Robb Pyke's navy.

[Martin's Ghost]

Theon was in a position where he either had to betray his family, his House or his friend Robb whom he might've explicitly sworn to follow but at least implocitly sworn to. You can argue that it would be considered worse of Theon to betray his House but what he does to Robb and the North is still betrayal IMO.

[Hippocras]

Theon was in a position where he either had to betray his family, his House or his friend Robb whom he might've explicitly sworn to follow but at least implocitly sworn to. You can argue that it would be considered worse of Theon to betray his House but what he does to Robb and the North is still betrayal IMO.

I agree he was in a tough spot. The normal way of things is to fight for your family. Both Theon and Tyrion show the cost of that when your family happens to be evil.

Theon definitely betrayed Robb. But IMO Balon betrayed Theon with the way he treated him when he came home. So, since Balon practically disowned him on Pyke, arguably Theon could have chosen to stay out of his father's war. He would have then been a prisoner on Pyke and called a coward, but he would not have betrayed his word to Robb.

But he knew he was not a Stark and apparently did not have confidence that he could have found a valuable role for himself if he stuck with Robb. That was his mistake. Confidence. His father's rejection made him want to prove himself to a man who was clearly in the wrong, and his pride cost him dearly. Truth is, his father probably would have respected him more if he had stuck to his position and defended it at risk of being imprisoned while Balon fought his war.

[Lee-Sensei]

He was definitely there at the heart tree, he was definitely there and joined in when Robb was declared King, and he definitely made a promise to bring Robb Pyke's navy.

You seem to think so. Do you have a quote? Because to me, it just doesn't make sense for Theon to propose an alliance to Balon where the Iron Islands are an independent Kingdom if he swore fealty to Robb. More over, if Theon swore fealty to Robb isn't it strange that the Northeners have called Theon turncloak, traitor and even kinslayer, but not oathbreaker?

I agree he was in a tough spot. The normal way of things is to fight for your family. Both Theon and Tyrion show the cost of that when your family happens to be evil.

Theon definitely betrayed Robb. But IMO Balon betrayed Theon with the way he treated him when he came home. So, since Balon practically disowned him on Pyke, arguably Theon could have chosen to stay out of his father's war. He would have then been a prisoner on Pyke and called a coward, but he would not have betrayed his word to Robb.

But he knew he was not a Stark and apparently did not have confidence that he could have found a valuable role for himself if he stuck with Robb. That was his mistake. Confidence. His father's rejection made him want to prove himself to a man who was clearly in the wrong, and his pride cost him dearly. Truth is, his father probably would have respected him more if he had stuck to his position and defended it at risk of being imprisoned while Balon fought his war.

I don't think he broke word to Robb. He presented the letter, argued for it and it was rejected.

I don't think Balon would respect a Kinslayer "trained raven" serving the Starks. And I don't think Robbs bannermen would accept Balons only son sitting on their war council and being privy to their plans while Balon rapes, pillages and plunders his way across the North.

[Hippocras]

You seem to think so. Do you have a quote? Because to me, it just doesn't make sense for Theon to propose an alliance to Balon where the Iron Islands is an independent Kingdom if he swore fealty to Robb.

ah, I see your problem.

An alliance is different from fealty. The deal was, Robb would recognize Balon as King of the Iron Islands in return for his help defeating the Lannisters. Theon was proud to bring that proposal to Balon, but Balon snubbed it, because according to Iron Island messed up value system, Ironborn can't be given things, they have to take them.

Before leaving with that mission however, the moment when Robb called his banners and the moment when Robb was declared King, Theon did promise his allegiance and his sword. This does not mean he implicitly swore fealty of the entire Iron Islands. It was a personal commitment.

[Lee-Sensei]

ah, I see your problem.

An alliance is different from fealty. The deal was, Robb would recognize Balon as King of the Iron Islands in return for his help defeating the Lannisters. Theon was proud to bring that proposal to Balon, but Balon snubbed it, because according to Iron Island messed up value system, Ironborn can't be given things, they have to take them.

Before leaving with that mission however, the moment when Robb called his banners and the moment when Robb was declared King, Theon did promise his allegiance and his sword. This does not mean he implicitly swore fealty of the entire Iron Islands. It was a personal commitment.

Do you have a quote?

[Hippocras]

Do you have a quote?

No I don't. I am truly sorry for that, but all I have is very crude non-kindle ereader copies and finding quotes that way is a super huge pain in the ass. One day I will order the actual books and be able to do quote searches more easily.

[Lee-Sensei]

No I don't. I am truly sorry for that, but all I have is very crude non-kindle ereader copies and finding quotes that way is a super huge pain in the ass. One day I will order the actual books and be able to do quote searches more easily.

Don't worry about it. The quotes not in the book, because he never swore to serve House Stark and I doubt Robb would have asked him to swear any oaths. They were friends and didn't think about outside factors (like Balons grudge and the long enmity between their people). Both of them were naive and thought that Balon would side with the Starks, they'd beat the Lannisters and become Kings. :)

[Hippocras]

Don't worry about it. The quotes not in the book, because he never swore to serve House Stark and I doubt Robb would have asked him to swear any oaths. They were friends and didn't think about outside factors (like Balons grudge and the long enmity between their people). Both of them were naive and thought that Balon would side with the Starks, they'd beat the Lannisters and become Kings. :)

That's not what I said he said though.

I agree he never swore to serve house Stark.

He did agree to fight beside Robb like a brother, and he did promise to bring his father's fleet. The first he did do for quite a while. The second he did not do, but broke his word and took Robb's home from him instead.

[David Selig]

The Starks never loved Theon. That is an outrageous lie. He was their captive and held as a normal hostage. He had no physical abuse, but certainly mental abuse. Catelyn hated him openly. Jon hated him, Bran...

Where do you get this stuff from? None of these people hated him at all. Yeah, they didn't trust him fully, but they were right about that. Catelyn even included him in the few people she told that she suspected the Lannisters caused Bran's fall.

[Metopheles]

Where do you get this stuff from? None of these people hated him at all. Yeah, they didn't trust him fully, but they were right about that. Catelyn even included him in the few people she told that she suspected the Lannisters caused Bran's fall.

Yeah the cat part, but it is stated from the first chapter ever in agot that Bran hated Theon, it's around the beheading of the deserter, and Jon kida agrees there, and then later, at least in ADWD and ASOS that Jon thinks to himself, he never liked Theon, and whatnot, sorry have no quotes at hand. And Cat certainly was quite open about it with her lovely looks towards him and how she constantly tells not to trust him. He was after all their hostage, not their guest. And he was constantly reminded of that. You could even call it a slave. He had to work for the, He had to stay with them was not allowed to leave, he did not get paid by them and had practically no rights. I would say Robb was the only one who cared about him as a human being, perhaps Jon with some sympathy(but he would never admit it to himself) but that's it.

[Hippocras]

Yeah the cat part, but it is stated from the first chapter ever in agot that Bran hated Theon, it's around the beheading of the deserter, and Jon kida agrees there, and then later, at least in ADWD and ASOS that Jon thinks to himself, he never liked Theon, and whatnot, sorry have no quotes at hand. And Cat certainly was quite open about it with her lovely looks towards him and how she constantly tells not to trust him. He was after all their hostage, not their guest. And he was constantly reminded of that. You could even call it a slave. He had to work for the, He had to stay with them was not allowed to leave, he did not get paid by them and had practically no rights. I would say Robb was the only one who cared about him as a human being, perhaps Jon with some sympathy(but he would never admit it to himself) but that's it.

Well they obviously did give him some money because he was easily able to buy himself whores and fancy clothes for his visit to Pyke.

I think you are exaggerating. Not liking is not the same thing as hating. Bran's attitude is understandable considering he was much younger and Theon went around with a smirk and attitude of superiority over the younger kids. He as not a particularly likable person. Jon didn't like him because of his personality, not because he was a hostage. Cat seemed mostly indifferent, but she has memories of the rebellion and did not grow up with him. That is not hate. It is just not "like".