Lee-Sensei Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 So, let's say the Lannisters keep Sansa for ten years (Joffrey still dead though), and Ned never died so the North never seceded. Now Arya, friend with Myrcella, Tommen and Margaery (grew up ten years with them after all,) is asked to go see her mother and brother to negotiate the help of the Starks in the war that just erupted between Lannisters and Martells. Robb reveals their intention to hit the Lannisters with all they've got. Sansa sides with her family and helps take King's Landing.Would it be betrayal?This is pretty much exactly what happened. :bowdown: Of course. She betrays her family by this. Sansa is a Lannister after all (if she in this scenario mysteriously beamed back from LFs ship to Cersei's lap and Cersei forgave her for poisoning Joffrey and Tywin allowed her to still be a Lannister even with Tyrion spirited away.....) :laugh: I love Sansa, but this is hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 In this comparison do Sansa/Arya swear several oaths to House Lannister/Tommen completely of their own initiative to assure them of their loyalties? Because if so, yes it is betrayal. They went out of their way to pick the Lannisters side, then later decided to go back over to the Stark side. And no. Theon did not take Winterfell because he wanted to Sea-side chair, he took Winterfell because he wanted Winterfell. He then made the smallfolk a promise that he'd be as just as Ned Stark if they fell in line and proceeded to murder northern two boys who had nothing to do with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 In this comparison do Sansa/Arya swear several oaths to House Lannister/Tommen completely of their own initiative to assure them of their loyalties? Because if so, yes it is betrayal.Theon swore no such oath and Sansa would not have either, in this scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted April 18, 2014 Share Posted April 18, 2014 Theon: "Lord Eddard is like a second father to me. I do so swear."Theon: "My lady, if it comes to that my House owes yours a great debt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Theon: "Lord Eddard is like a second father to me. I do so swear." Theon: "My lady, if it comes to that my House owes yours a great debt." 1) That was about keeping the fact that an assassin came after Bran a secret. As far as we know, he kept that promise. 2) That wasn't an oath and even if it was it can be taken in more than one way. In this comparison do Sansa/Arya swear several oaths to House Lannister/Tommen completely of their own initiative to assure them of their loyalties? Because if so, yes it is betrayal. They went out of their way to pick the Lannisters side, then later decided to go back over to the Stark side. And no. Theon did not take Winterfell because he wanted to Sea-side chair, he took Winterfell because he wanted Winterfell. He then made the smallfolk a promise that he'd be as just as Ned Stark if they fell in line and proceeded to murder northern two boys who had nothing to do with anything. Yes. He took Winterfell because he wanted to prove himself to his father so he could become the King of the Iron Islands after him. d it can be taken more than one way anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Theon: "Lord Eddard is like a second father to me. I do so swear."Sansa: "Cersei is like a second mother to me. I do so swear." Theon: "My lady, if it comes to that my House owes yours a great debt."Sansa: "My lord Tywin, if it comes to that my house owes yours a great debt." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 1) That was about keeping the fact that an assassin came after Bran a secret. As far as we know, he kept that promise. 2) That wasn't an oath and even if it was it can be taken in more than one way. Yes. He took Winterfell because he wanted to prove himself to his father so he could become the King of the Iron Islands after him. d it can be taken more than one way anyways. No, it wasn't. It was about letting him in on the secret Lysa Arryn inparted in them concerning Jon Arryn's death. Which he may have kept but I nevertheless feel he betrayed the spirit in which that pact was made when he started murdering Winterfell's smallfolk. If Theon saw himself as an unwilling hostage and nothing more then he should know quite well that he had no place in that conversation. You don't see Sansa Lannister being included in Tywin's strategy meetings. Theon wanted to be more then a hostage to House Stark and he succeeded, hence why he was trusted to return to his father in the first place. I don't envy the position he found himself in upon his return to the Iron Islands but it is what it is. Being known as Theon Turncloak is the risk he took when he decided to take Winterfell for the Ironborn and he took in willingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I don't recall the Starks ever beating Theon for fun, killing people he cares about and forcing him to watch or threatening to rape him. Comparing Ned/Robb to Joffrey/Cerice just doesn't work, IMO. In one case the hostage was treated like a member of the family, in the other case the hostage was tortured for sport. Ohh, not Reek level tortured mind you, but still pretty bad never the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairion Lannister Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I'd say he did. Even though he was their ward, he still befriended them and they treated him well for someone who may have been abused by other houses. I can understand why he betrayed them, as he wanted to show his allegiance to his blood family, although that doesn't stop it being a betrayal in technical terms. While he was their ward and some may say prisoner, it's worth noting that Ned taking him was effectively an act of kindness. He could have easily advised Robert to executed Balon (his father) and Theon's uncles for treason, further advising Robert to kill Theon in order to end the Greyjoy line so they could install a new head of the Iron Island's who would be more obedient. Not that Robert would have listened definitively, but Ned's say could have been influential. When he came to Winterfell, Ned could have easily shunned him. Ned would've lost men in that war; men he perhaps knew as well. He could've placed blame on Theon because his father was responsible for that, but he didn't. Theon was treated well. So while I understand what Theon did and hold some sympathy for him, and think his arc is one of the best in the series because of his Stark/Greyjoy conflict, what he did was still a betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 it's worth noting that Ned taking him was effectively an act of kindness. Ripping a nine year old and the last living son from a grieving mother and enslaving him(because that is exactly what Theon was as ward). Better give Ned a medal for this. So kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Ripping a nine year old and the last living son from a grieving mother and enslaving him(because that is exactly what Theon was as ward). Better give Ned a medal for this. So kind. The Greyjoys committed treason. So they had to be punished in some way. Either death or The Wall would have been what I would have done in Roberts place. If anything the Greyjoys got off light by simply having one of their children taken as ward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 The Greyjoys committed treason. So they had to be punished in some way. Either death or The Wall would have been what I would have done in Roberts place. If anything the Greyjoys got off light by simply having one of their children taken as ward. I hope you say the same thing when Daenerys Stormborn returns to Westeros and demands Stannis to decide between execution or Wall. Maybe she takes Shireen as ward./handmaiden slave. Maybe she also takes Neddard's remaining children as wards, too. Would be fair, aye? I mean they rebelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 I hope you say the same thing when Daenerys Stormborn returns to Westeros and demands Stannis to decide between execution or Wall. Maybe she takes Shireen as ward./handmaiden slave. Maybe she also takes Neddard's remaining children as wards, too. Would be fair, aye? I mean they rebelled. You lost me on the point your trying to make. Are you saying The Greyjoys shouldn't have been punished in anyway for burning Lannisport and rebelling against the Iron Throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 You lost me on the point your trying to make. Are you saying The Greyjoys shouldn't have been punished in anyway for burning Lannisport and rebelling against the Iron Throne? The Ironborn do not belong to the Seven Kingdoms... they don't give really anything to it.. scratch that. The Ironborn knelt for the dragons, not for the stag. They rebelled rightfully. But if you want someone to punish for these deeds, punish the offenders. Why not take Balon or Victarion as prisoners? Theon had nothing to do with it. But you got my point wrong. The side who loses is always the bad one. So they get punished. But the usurpers went unpunished so far. Now if Daenerys returns, should she punish them ? Would it be rightful to take Rickon and Sansa and Arya as wardens, same as Tommen and Shireen, Edmure.....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 No, it wasn't. It was about letting him in on the secret Lysa Arryn inparted in them concerning Jon Arryn's death. Which he may have kept but I nevertheless feel he betrayed the spirit in which that pact was made when he started murdering Winterfell's smallfolk. If Theon saw himself as an unwilling hostage and nothing more then he should know quite well that he had no place in that conversation. You don't see Sansa Lannister being included in Tywin's strategy meetings. Theon wanted to be more then a hostage to House Stark and he succeeded, hence why he was trusted to return to his father in the first place. I don't envy the position he found himself in upon his return to the Iron Islands but it is what it is. Being known as Theon Turncloak is the risk he took when he decided to take Winterfell for the Ironborn and he took in willingly. 1) Well he didn't. He kept their secret so he broke no oaths. 2) It's not about Theon wanting to be more then that for House Stark. They brought him in and told their secret. He swore not to tell and he didn't. 3) He's known as Theon Turncloak in the North and the Riverlands. No one else cares about him choosing his own family over his captors. You lost me on the point your trying to make. Are you saying The Greyjoys shouldn't have been punished in anyway for burning Lannisport and rebelling against the Iron Throne? Did the Greyjoys ever swear fealty to Robert after he got rid of the Targaryens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Did the Greyjoys ever swear fealty to Robert after he got rid of the Targaryens? Nope :D At least not in their hearts. Unlike the Reach Lords and the Martells, however, they did do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovis alba Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Did the Greyjoys ever swear fealty to Robert after he got rid of the Targaryens? Yes after the rebellion they were forced to do so (which you will say doesn't count, because they were forced to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Better question : Did the Martells break an oath, betrayed the crown, when they refused to participate in these rebellions and the War of the Five Kings ? You would say, surely, as they swore some imagined oath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ovis alba Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 As you answer questions for other people anyway, I have one for you and I really would like to know how you think about it and not for the point of arguing: Do you think MMD betrayed Dany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted April 19, 2014 Share Posted April 19, 2014 Yes after the rebellion they were forced to do so (which you will say doesn't count, because they were forced to) Do you have a quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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