Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 No character in the whole series seems to be more easily dismissed than Lord Mace. Everyone, from Ser Kevan to his own mother, says he's an oaf, an afterthought, an idiot. However, if we look at Mace's objective accomplishments as the head of his house, one has to wonder why this is so.Leading up to RR(the pivotal political moment of his generation's time), Mace chooses to remain loyal to the Iron Throne. Not a bad choice when you consider his positioning: the Reach is right next door to Dorne(region with the most Targaryen supporters), the Westerlands(region that most thought would eventually be brought into the Targaryen fold), and the Stormlands(which despite being the seat of Robert himself, was very divided). If Mace had sided with the rebels, many enemy armies would have had to march through the Reach(no doubt pillaging as they went). Note that even if Robert turned out to be able to unify his powerbase, which he did, his forces would have been heading North; not through the heart of the Reach. By siding with the Targaryens, Mace kept his people safe. During RR, Mace's forces never entered into pitched battle. The closest they came to such a fight was at Ashford, which was truly just a skirmish between vanguards, but still was the only defeat in the field that Robert ever suffered. Instead the main Tyrell force laid siege to the lightly held Storm's End for basically the entire war, never once attempting to take it despite overwhelming numerical superiority. In short, the Tyrells basically sat the war out. Only sending a cursory amount of levies to fight at the Trident and refusing to break siege lines to provide support to King's Landing following Rhaegar's death. By refusing to fully commit to the loyalist cause, Mace insured that not only would his troops avoid the worst of the fighting, but should either side win, neither would be overly upset with him, his family, or his bannermen. Note that this apparently worked rather well; House Tyrell seems to have no lost lands, titles, or incomes following RR. Aside from Stannis' marriage to a Florent, they don't appear to have suffered any slights either. In the time between RR and the Wot5K, Mace works to regain his minor political losses from RR. He also raises his children(we'll get to them later though). Mace sends his third son to squire to for Robert's younger(and more beloved) brother. Though no one can think that Mace expected Loras to grow as close to Renly as he did, its clear the Tyrells viewed Renly as their best chance to get a voice in Robert's court. When it became clear that Cersei and Robert's marriage was becoming increasingly volatile, they may or may not have even planted the idea that Cersei should be set aside for Margaery . Though that plan never came to fruition, it wasn't without merit. Once the Wot5K breaks out, Mace plans to crown and support Renly, and to marry him to his daughter. At the outbreak of the conflict, Renly was by far the most viable contender for the Iron Throne. Joffrey was a child psychopath who had just murdered the honorable Ned Stark, Stannis was little loved and commanded only the loyalty of a small number, and Robb was only fighting for his father and then the North. Though many discounted Renly and his ability to lead against men such as his brother Stannis and Tywin Lannister, Renly and/or Mace knew that the way to win the throne was through public relations. Renly looked and had the charm of a young Robert, he commanded the loyalty of the Stormlands despite his brother's campaigning for their support, and he held the smallfolk's love(recall his quieting a near riot at the Hand's Tourney in aGoT). Mace controlled the breadbasket of Westeros. By cutting off the supply of Reach foodstuffs to King's Landing, Mace and Renly crippled the Lannister's ability to feed the capital. Combining the already unpopular Lannisters with a near famine had the city crying out for Mace's son-in-law and daughter to save them. Renly's assassination was an unpredictable thing. Without such an occurrence, its hard to imagine Renly doesn't take King's Landing and the throne with Tyrells on all sides. After this freak happening occurred, Mace did the smart thing. He held his forces back and didn't join either Stannis or Joffrey's cause immediately. He waited, got a great offer that would keep his daughter a queen, and had his forces save the city from Stannis, further insuring the people's love for his house. Following all of this he sends his daughter to court with a full retinue, including his savvy mother. Another, crueler king dies and Margaery remains a queen and the small council slowly fills up with Reachmen. And Mace still keeps his troops out of pitched battle and his land rape-and-pillage-free. Until, that is, the Ironborn attack. This is another unpredictable event that bites Mace. Its important to note however, that the Shield Islands weren't taken because they were lightly garrisoned due to having their men away at war, but because the Sheilds weren't designed to face actual invasion forces. They're there to stop raiders and buffer against invasions, which they did. Reach forces are immediately rallied and plans are made to bring the Redwyne Fleet(strongest in Westoros) back home to expel the Ironborn. Now onto a different field of success: Mace's children. By all accounts, the Tyrell children are well adjusted and liked. Garlan might be the best sword in Westoros, Loras is a renowned champion of the tilt, and Margaery is beloved by the court, save Cersei, her husband, and the people. "But wait" you say, "What about Willas? The young boy Mace crippled for his desire to have a hero for a son?" Well, that is a good point, Willas was likely young for the lists, but he was a firstborn. All parents make mistakes, but the world of ASOIAF is harsh. Instead of a father signing his kid up for midget league football a year to early and consequently having said child suffer a minor concussion: Mace's son was a year too young to joust and got a crushed leg instead of a headache. To Mace's credit, he apparently learned from this. Both his other sons are acclaimed jousters, which is likely a result of more thorough training before entering the lists. Mace also never sought to disinherit his crippled son(who could be viewed as weak) in favor of his strong, capable younger brothers. Mace has set up all of his children with bright futures and/or good lands. Willas has Highgarden, Garlan has Brightwater Keep(which was the seat of the second most powerful house in the Reach), Margaery is Queen, and Loras is in the Kingsguard. Mace clearly truly cares for his children as well. He immediately breaks the siege of Storm's End to come to his daughter's aid when she is imprisoned. If you measure the success of a leader of a house by the amount of influence they gain under their leadership, then Mace is the most successful men alive in Westoros. If you measure a lord by how safe and fed his people are, Mace is one of the best lords in all the land. If you measure a man by his children, then Mace is the father of a kind man(allegedly at least), a beloved queen, a fierce warrior, and a tourney hero. By any measure used in Westorosi and our own society, Mace is successful and effective, and a good father to boot. "But wait" you say, "You're attributing all these accomplishments to Mace, when they are clearly the actual manipulations of his mother/daughter/son/bannermen!!" That's a solid point. Many of Mace's accomplishments can be attributed to others under his authority. I would argue that he has far too many to simply be a product of a good support system. Lets say everything I've listed here is actually the accomplishment of someone else in the Tyrell camp, how does that discredit Mace? Most good leaders are not themselves as brilliant as they seem, its the people they put around themselves that have the true brilliance and specialization required to carry out a task effectively. I'm not saying Mace Tyrell is secretly Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark combined, or that he isn't a braggadocios man who steals the fame of others. I am saying that it shocks me that despite all that the Tyrells have done and how they have maintained and grown in power during Mace's tenure as head of the house, he is treated as some worthless idiot both in and out of universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambi76 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Because for some strange reason Olenna Redwyne is very popular in this fandom, and if a fan favorite says you're a dumbass, you're forever fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Well one reason, might be that his building up the Tower of the Hand to be twice as big as the last one, added to the hilarious Hand-shaped chair for himself now that he's Hand of the King is embarrassingly gauche. Then there's the fact that his own mom says he's a fool, and we tend to respect Olenna's judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Joker Of FunLand Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Because even in the Westeros world, not many people seem to consider him smart, or courageous, or lovable. AKA not worth respecting. Nothing about the power he has acquired, is due to what he has done. Littlefinger, his mother, and Stannis all helped him, he did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I think he plays up the image of being an oaf because it works to his advantage. He is not an idiot, but he is not one of the worlds great thinkers. I think he has played the long game, along with Doran Martell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Well one reason, might be that his building up the Tower of the Hand to be twice as big as the last one, added to the hilarious Hand-shaped chair for himself now that he's Hand of the King is embarrassingly gauche. Then there's the fact that his own mom says he's a fool, and we tend to respect Olenna's judgment. He is ostentatious. That doesn't mean he isn't an effective leader or father. He has, objectively, done a far better leading his house than nearly everyone else in the 7 Kingdoms. And why do we respect Olenna so much? She plays a part in Joffrey's assassination, we don't know how large apart though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 And why do we respect Olenna so much? She plays apart in Joffrey's assassination, we don't know how large apart though. Because she's witty, but not much more than that. I don't get the love for her. If you ask me, Mace played his hand in RR perfectly. No matter who wins, the Tyrells get out of the conflict unscathed and unpunished. Nothing more Tyrell-like than that. Also, he's one in a very small group of men that isn't a shitty father in this series, so he gets props for that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Here's why: Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky." "Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis." Lord Tywin's face gave no hint as to his feelings. "There is Lysa Arryn to deal with as well. Jon Arryn's widow, Hoster Tully's daughter, Catelyn Stark's sister . . . whose husband was conspiring with Stannis Baratheon at the time of his death." "Oh," said Mace Tyrell cheerfully, "women have no stomach for war. Let her be, I say, she's not like to trouble us."Tyrell repeated, "what victories has he ever won that we should fear him? He could have ended Robert's Rebellion at Stoney Sept. He failed. Just as the Golden Company has always failed. Some may rush to join them, aye. The realm is well rid of such fools." The Baratheon alliance was made by Loras and Renly. The Lannister alliance was offered to the Tyrells. Tyrion and Littlefinger designed that. Margaery is of Olenna's design. Mace just wants her to be queen. Tower of the Hand three times as large? A throne in the shape of a Hand? Mace Tyrell = :dunce: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Here's why: The Baratheon alliance was made by Loras and Renly. The Lannister alliance was offered to the Tyrells. Tyrion and Littlefinger designed that. Margaery is of Olenna's design. Mace just wants her to be queen. Tower of the Hand three times as large? A throne in the shape of a Hand? Mace Tyrell = :dunce: He's right, if not polite, in both those instances. Why send men into country they know nothing about to fight dying enemies? Lysa wasn't going to enter the war if Littlefinger didn't tell her to. What should have been done with her for her refusal to aid anyone during the Wot5K? Why start a conflict when there appears to be none? And Jon Connington has fought one battle in his whole life. He lost. The Golden Company has always lost as well. Its much better for the realm if the lion's share of Targaryen loyalists declare for a possible feigned boy than for them to wait and fight for the Targaryen on the other side of the world when she comes, especially if the stories of dragons are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it’s plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton’s once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Cailin. That is what I would do.[3] Mace Tyrell on Robb Stark, then we hear Tyrion's thoughts... Robb Stark had won more battles in a year than the Lord of Highgarden had in twenty.[3 Then there was GRRM's own quote on Mace... “If I were Mace Tyrell, I would sooner have Joffrey's head on a pike than his cock in my daughter.” The fact that Mace *did* consider Joffrey/Margaery a good match suggests he's a fool..remember Olenna was the one who figured out that while they might need a King for Margaery to marry they didn't need Joffrey, and that clearing the way for Tommen would solve a lot of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 It's to bad Rondey Dangerfield is dead, or he could play Mace in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Mace Tyrell on Robb Stark, then we hear Tyrion's thoughts... Then there was GRRM's own quote on Mace... The fact that Mace *did* consider Joffrey/Margaery a good match suggests he's a fool..remember Olenna was the one who figured out that while they might need a King for Margaery to marry they didn't need Joffrey, and that clearing the way for Tommen would solve a lot of problems. That's the actual course of action Robb and his bannermen choose though. Its not a great option, but it was the best available to them. That's Tyrion's thought. He's not wrong, but I would like to point out that he thought Kevan(a person he knows much more intimately) was his father's lickspittle. How can we be sure Mace was not a part of this process? And even if he wasn't, what would be the point of bringing your very old, very politically savvy mother to court if not to help protect your interests? Of which Margaery was foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojosh Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 He sucks its just how it is Failed sieges, upstart kings making you look like an amateur commander, and the general way olena seems to have to clean up all his decisions just does not paint a good picture for the manI mean he wanted his daughter to marry joffrey like it was the best thing in the world. Then he wanted her to marry Tommen.........yeesh fool me once but twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Because he's a dumbass and everyone else does everything for him. Willas and Margaery are smarter, Garlan is gallant, and Loras is a better fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 He sucks its just how it is Failed sieges, upstart kings making you look like an amateur commander, and the general way olena seems to have to clean up all his decisions just does not paint a good picture for the man I mean he wanted his daughter to marry joffrey like it was the best thing in the world. Then he wanted her to marry Tommen.........yeesh fool me once but twice The Siege of Storm's End was going quite well on both occasions actually. Stannis was starving, his men wanted to surrender. Davos bought them a few months at the absolute most. No reason to think the second siege wasn't much like the first. What upstart king made him look like an amateur? Robert? Who suffered his only defeat at the hands of Mace's forces? Aegon? Who has taken no land from Mace or engaged his forces at all? What messes does Olenna clean up? She plays a role in Joffrey's assassination(we have little reason to think Mace wasn't a part of this discussion). Other than that she has done nothing. Ned and Catelyn also wanted to marry their daughter to Joffrey. Marrying Tommen was a boon. Everyone thinks Tommen is nice, kind, and pliable. Everything Joffrey wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Robb Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Actually after reading the OP my opinion of Mace Tyrell changed. The only thing I have so far liked about him is that he has a cool name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 OP has decent points, and we may see in the future if they are valid. So far, we don't know if Mace is an actual buffoon with great underlings (Tarly, Queen of Thornes, hist children, etc), or if he is more of a Doran than we yet realize. Remember, to all parties involved, Doran Martell is a coward, weak, and scared of others. In reality, he played the grass for his brother the snake, and set plans in motion through carefully chosen intermediaries. For all we know, Darkstar (aka Dorkstar) is really on some long con mission from Doran. I tend to think there might be more to him for the reasons the OP mentions, and am doubtful that such an apparent wealth of good luck and great followers can be possible without some deliberate planning. Just the fact that Randyll Tarly, for all his military prowess and incredibly hard nature, is still completely loyal to Mace is something. The guy rushes from Maidenpool to ensure Margarey isn't imprisoned, which means that Tarly's men are at the complete disposal of Mace - unlike the men of Roose Bolton via Robb. It is also a particularly good point about the "failed" siege of Storms End - sure, he didn't get Stannis to surrender to the Tyrell/Targaryens...but Mace also didn't have to fight anyone, kill anyone important, or put his men at great risk. If he had succeeded earlier and killed Stannis/Renly, there would have been no redemption from Robert. And we still don't know what actually was going on behind the scenes at the Purple Wedding, but all we can see now is that Mace is the one holding the reigns, his daughter is queen to a child king, a king with hardly any family left, and he has control over the Reach and KL. Not a bad score for someone who is such a buffoon... That being said - I don't think the Tyrells have much of a chance to actually take over more power, or ever hold it for very long. They are currenly overreaching (pun intended), but it currently seems to be working out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 OP has decent points, and we may see in the future if they are valid. So far, we don't know if Mace is an actual buffoon with great underlings (Tarly, Queen of Thornes, hist children, etc), or if he is more of a Doran than we yet realize. Remember, to all parties involved, Doran Martell is a coward, weak, and scared of others. In reality, he played the grass for his brother the snake, and set plans in motion through carefully chosen intermediaries. For all we know, Darkstar (aka Dorkstar) is really on some long con mission from Doran. I tend to think there might be more to him for the reasons the OP mentions, and am doubtful that such an apparent wealth of good luck and great followers can be possible without some deliberate planning. Just the fact that Randyll Tarly, for all his military prowess and incredibly hard nature, is still completely loyal to Mace is something. The guy rushes from Maidenpool to ensure Margarey isn't imprisoned, which means that Tarly's men are at the complete disposal of Mace - unlike the men of Roose Bolton via Robb. It is also a particularly good point about the "failed" siege of Storms End - sure, he didn't get Stannis to surrender to the Tyrell/Targaryens...but Mace also didn't have to fight anyone, kill anyone important, or put his men at great risk. If he had succeeded earlier and killed Stannis/Renly, there would have been no redemption from Robert. And we still don't know what actually was going on behind the scenes at the Purple Wedding, but all we can see now is that Mace is the one holding the reigns, his daughter is queen to a child king, a king with hardly any family left, and he has control over the Reach and KL. Not a bad score for someone who is such a buffoon... That being said - I don't think the Tyrells have much of a chance to actually take over more power, or ever hold it for very long. They are currenly overreaching (pun intended), but it currently seems to be working out. It's not even that the siege didn't succeed. The point of a waiting siege is to end the situation non-violently and take everything (people included) intact. If he had succeeded at Storm's End, he would have had Stannis and Renly as -hostages-, which is an infinitely more advantageous thing. He could have treated them 'gently' as it were, and if Robert won, he could have returned them generously and won some real prizes out of the deal, and if Aerys won, he could present Robert's siblings to him on a silver platter. Both Robert and the Mad King were renown for generosity to those that served them well. And taking Storm's End intact, and Robert's kin along with it, would have given him an edge no matter who came out on top. As is, he simply kept away from having to go 'all-in' and risk the lives of his people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Shaggydog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 It still works out for him - and most likely there is truth to the fact that he is not much of a military commander. He still appears to be a decent schemer, and plays the fool as well to keep his hand strong and his men out of harms way. I think the OP was suggesting he is more of a Doran Martell, and not just a bumbling fool. Also, taking Storms End intact and keeping Stannis alive was most likely an impossible situation, and something that could never happen. Stannis was already known by this time, and known as someone who would most likely die a violent death before he allowed himself to be taken hostage. So it would either be to storm storms end and kill Stannis, or wait it out and not inflict too much harm, and the smart move there is to wait it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Maybe that is Mace's strategy ? He acts like a fool so nobody feels threatened, and now Mace and the Tyrells are gobbling up council seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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