Why does Mace Tyrell get no respect?

[the conquoring bastard25]

Tytos blackwood and the entire Trident area are playing a longer game. I think having Jamie come to Raventree was part of a larger plan.

just like mace yielding to Ned was part of a larger more long term plan.

[Trigger Warning]

In medieval history sieges were generally undertaken with the intention of starving the enemy into capitulation, not storming the walls.

[Chatty Duelist]

In medieval history sieges were generally undertaken with the intention of starving the enemy into capitulation, not storming the walls.

Unless the attacker was numerically overwhelming. There was no point in them starving out a garrison of 100 men when they had over 40k.

[danm_999]

In medieval history sieges were generally undertaken with the intention of starving the enemy into capitulation, not storming the walls.

They were also undertaken with the intention of not allowing the enemy any resupply. So given Davos manages to slip past Mace's forces, Mace Tyrell seems rather inept no matter how you cut it.

[joluoto2]

He's an idiot who happens to control the most populous and second richest region in Westeros, and is surrounded by more competent people (which is why he's doing fine). I think Mace Tyrell is the proof that an incompetent ruler can do great if her has a good council.

[Victor227]

They were also undertaken with the intention of not allowing the enemy any resupply. So given Davos manages to slip past Mace's forces, Mace Tyrell seems rather inept no matter how you cut it.

Mace literally brought the largest fleet in Westeros to that fight. With the exception of maybe the entire Ironborn navy, there's no tighter a possible blockade. That Davos got through is a testament to his skills (he -earned- that knighting), and/or the possible weakness of Paxtor Redwyne.

But yeah, anyone but Stannis in charge and it would have been a surrender. Before Davos arrived, there was already one breach in discipline, and if he hadn't been caught, Ser Gawen Wylde and his knights would have sold out the whole garrison and let in the Tyrell forces. The siege was definitely working.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

The Hand Throne is Awesome.

Buncha haters disrespecting the Hand Throne because their favorite character didn't think of it first. Pure sour grapes.

Mace is the avante garde of Castle Furnishing, and while admittedly that may be a little less useful of a milieu to have in a medieval fantasy setting than other things, it is nevertheless a way to make your mark that can and will stand the test of time. Queen Anne Furniture is still a thing, for instance.

You watch. When the Iron Throne is destroyed at the end of A Dream of Spring, the new monarch of the livable portion of Westeros will rule from the comfortable AND stylish Hand Throne that Mace Tyrell left behind.

If only the true force of his furnishing genius could be unleashed on the throne rooms of the Lords Paramount throughout the land. Seastone Chair? Get that weaksauce out of here. The Eyrie's throne room has a damn HOLE in the middle of the floor, talk about stupid. That could get someone hurt, for seven's sake. Mace would never let that foolishness fly; first order of business would be to patch that up. After throwing that stupid thing Lysa and Sweetrobin sat on through it, because I mean really have you seen that thing?

The Iron Throne is the way it is because "the King should never sit comfortably"? Re-read ADWD, folks. Dany's downfall begins when she starts holding court sitting on a bench. Conqueror Queen Of Slaver's Bay and she's propping up cushions on a bench like a bleacher bum. And look where it gets her! Uncomfortable seating -> Bad Decisions. Time to ditch the Iron Throne.

And time to respect Mace The Furniture Master.

[kilthan]

I think OP is spot on about Mace. There is a style of comedy that came out of the cons people pulled. It is the funny man/straight man duo. In the art of conning people you have a person who draws attention and an unassuming one that is the actually manipulator of the situation. The person doing magic vs the person picking pockets. The person selling fake jewelry and the fake buyer to get the mark to think the pieces are legit. That is what you have with the Queen of Thorns and Lord Puff Fish. She makes this big show of saying, "look at my idiot child. He should listen to me, but he's an idiot!" All the while we see Mace accurately assessing many situaitons (Lysa, Robb, etc), putting able and trusted men in to key positions to secure his house, family, and region, all the while everybody assumes he's an idiot, not realizing he's telling them exactly how things will play out. "oh, Robb will have to march north, meet with Roose, and throw his armies at the Moat. Its what I would do." He reinforces his mothers statements, but is actually showing he understands his opponents.

What would have happened if he had surrendered to Stannis rather than Ned? Stannis, who had just cut the fingers off of the man who HAD SAVED HIS LIFE. Tyrel would have been bound and trussed for the wall in a heart beat. But Ned... Ned was a different animal. Ned would have understood and accepted the Tyrels into King Robert's peace... as he did. Ned, beloved of Robert. Ned, who we see stands up for the lives of enemies (Dany and Viserys. His rage at the deaths of Elia, Rheynes, and Aegon. ) Ned already had the reputation of being a good man. Surrendering to Robert would have worked as well, considering how he forgave loyal Targaryen supporters like Barristan.

Also, consider the Blow fish (Lord Puff Fish). Yes, they LOOK comical. but they can kill you right quick if you're not careful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrodotoxin

Yeah, Mace is Puff Fish. Slow, and silly looking, until you try and take a bite and find you can't move... or breath... and then your heart bursts. The Queen of Thornes says he should take one for his Sigil, and she's not wrong, I think.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

I think OP is spot on about Mace. There is a style of comedy that came out of the cons people pulled. It is the funny man/straight man duo. In the art of conning people you have a person who draws attention and an unassuming one that is the actually manipulator of the situation. The person doing magic vs the person picking pockets. The person selling fake jewelry and the fake buyer to get the mark to think the pieces are legit. That is what you have with the Queen of Thorns and Lord Puff Fish. She makes this big show of saying, "look at my idiot child. He should listen to me, but he's an idiot!" All the while we see Mace accurately assessing many situaitons (Lysa, Robb, etc), putting able and trusted men in to key positions to secure his house, family, and region, all the while everybody assumes he's an idiot, not realizing he's telling them exactly how things will play out. "oh, Robb will have to march north, meet with Roose, and throw his armies at the Moat. Its what I would do." He reinforces his mothers statements, but is actually showing he understands his opponents.

What would have happened if he had surrendered to Stannis rather than Ned? Stannis, who had just cut the fingers off of the man who HAD SAVED HIS LIFE. Tyrel would have been bound and trussed for the wall in a heart beat. But Ned... Ned was a different animal. Ned would have understood and accepted the Tyrels into King Robert's peace... as he did. Ned, beloved of Robert. Ned, who we see stands up for the lives of enemies (Dany and Viserys. His rage at the deaths of Elia, Rheynes, and Aegon. ) Ned already had the reputation of being a good man. Surrendering to Robert would have worked as well, considering how he forgave loyal Targaryen supporters like Barristan.

Also, consider the Blow fish (Lord Puff Fish). Yes, they LOOK comical. but they can kill you right quick if you're not careful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrodotoxin

Yeah, Mace is Puff Fish. Slow, and silly looking, until you try and take a bite and find you can't move... or breath... and then your heart bursts. The Queen of Thornes says he should take one for his Sigil, and she's not wrong, I think.

Well, parlor tricks/smoke and mirrors/the shell game is definitely House Tyrell's family magic, to be sure. Not as overtly awesome as Stark Warging or Targaryen DRAGONS~! and stuff, but you work with what you have, and "nothing up my sleeve" misdirection has been serving the Tyrells well for a long time.

Even their chief vassal Randyll Tarly seems to be part of the act in that ADWD epilogue. As Mace blows off the seriousness of every possible threat discussed at the council meeting, including the invasion of Jon Connington, Tarly interjects at every mention of the latter's name, as reliable as clockwork, to question whether it really even is Jon Connington. They're not real, it's not real, it's not a threat, pay no attention. And they stress this at every opportunity. Kevan thought enough of it to be suspicious. Hmmm...

[HosteenOsteen]

Don't buy the defense of Lord Puff Fish, though the OP was a valiant attempt.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I have to disagree I think that the op is right on the money. They are showing you that while Olenna may be the face of the Tyrell operation he's a player himself. She can't do anything that the head of the house doesn't approve. By swaying with wherever the wind is blowing is showing that he's smart enough to know which way the wind is blowing and how to hitch his rise to their star. He may not be an overt one to show his cunning but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have any. If anything I think it takes more to pretend to be stupid when you know that everyone is laughing and talking about you behind your back about how stupid you are. When you know that you aren't. That is some really cool shit, because talking as someone who's been tested and my IQ is high I cant dumb myself down. I get a thrill out of showing just how smart I am. Its one of the few thing that I'm really vain or proud of as no one can take my intelligence away from me. So for him to have been playing the oaf for years and to do it convincingly while you know your the master mind.... Give the man a little credit.

Before we really got a good look at Doran or manderly most didn't think too much of them and some still don't give them the credit that they deserve.

[Lord Varys]

Randyll and Mace really are con players in the ADwD Epilogue. Their game there is to make it perfectly clear to Kevan that House Tyrell will not move a finger against the Golden Company as long as Queen Margaery does not get her acquittal. And how to do it better than by not even recognizing the threat the Golden Company poses. Kevan did not have the power to force them to do anything; all he could do was to hope that they would see his reasoning, and that they would understand they have a common goal.

With Kevan dead Mace's decision will decide whether House Tyrell will completely take over King Tommen's administration (very likely) or whether they will try to switch horses yet again.

Say, if Cersei runs amok and flees with Tommen to Casterly Rock, Mace would have both reason and opportunity to offer Margaery as bride to Aegon. Her marriage to Tommen was never consummated, and if the Faith would acquit her in a fair trial, she could marry anew. But I admit that this is not very likely.

[Wmarshal]

Fat Trell speaks the truth, Mace is a lord I would want to serve.

[Erkan12]

Mama's boy...