High Sparrow

[SpringKing]

Considering how influential the character has been and, I think, will continue to be it seems appropriate that he'd have a back story that wouldn't just be "squeezed in" at the last minute. I do see a problem with HR as the HS though because crannogmen strike me as exceedingly "old gods" How would he have risen through the ranks of the Fot7? and furthermore would he betray his faith for vengeance or even a "greater good"?

There are several examples of people who hold to both the old and new gods - "I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new." - so theyre not mutually exclusive to the point where its betrayal to switch from one to the other. The HS didnt rise through the ranks. He walked between 50 villages in the riverlands as a circuit preacher, then went to KL with a number of armed sparrows where he was elected HS by virtue of 'grassroots' support. Arya sees the beginning of the sparrow movement on her travels west of the lake as the smallfolk take up arms in defense of their land. The rough model for all of this is Peter the Hermit and the People's Crusade. But where the crusaders had the goal of liberating the Holy Land from the infidel oppressors, the Faith Militant is determined to protect the small folk and their homeland from ostensibly faithful oppressors.

They looked like rabble because that's what they were. They have cudgels, axes things like that. To say that they're better armed is pure wishful thinking. The fact that arms can be hidden under robes in no way means that they are.

There is also a manpower reservoir among the disaffected residents of KL who have suffered under the monarchy since before the battle of the Blackwater. It would be wise not to underestimate the power of a popular uprising against a "real army". IRL there are a number of examples of 'Arab Spring' movements which have overthrown established dictators.

The High Sparrow isn't Howland Reed. There's no way a guy that devoted to the Old Gods becomes the High Septon. There's also no indication that the High Sparrow isn't sincere in his faith. Also, Howland Reed hasn't been walking around enough to have the High Septon's gnarled feet. You don't get blisters walking in swamps. He was at Greywater Watch until at least ACOK. He's likely still there by ADWD coordinating the attacks on Moat Cailin. If he isn't just some random guy, I think a member of House Reyne makes more sense. If he was a younger son who had already become a Septon, he might have escaped Tywin's notice just like Maester Aemon escaped Robert's notice. A member of House Reyne would have motivation for wanting to bring down the Lannnisters and would be able to sympathize with the losses suffered by the smallfolk during the war.

Tywin exterminated House Reyne and there are no known survivors. All the signals as to the HS's identity point to HR. Its been a long time since Robb sent Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover to HR for help. The strategic situation has changed. Moat Cailin is no longer the key to success in the north. KL has always been key. Robb's orders to HR were to infiltrate and outflank his enemies. Spending a year walking the riverlands and gathering sparrows would be enough to gnarl and blacken anyone's feet. Infiltrating KL with a host of sparrows and establishing himself as HS is a grand flanking maneuver. By extrapolation, HR becoming HS is much in line with his dead commander's (Robb) broad intent.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

Although I don't exactly disagree I do suspect "I swear mi lords by the old gods and the new" is more a turn of phrase than an example of mixed faith. Also, how would Howland Reed, who we agree holds the old gods, be so well versed in the dogma of the 7?

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

What I mean is who were his supporters? All crannogmen? Unlikely. Northern Stark sympathizers? Doubtful. Someone must have "vouched" for him at least, right?

That's the thing that drives the conspiracy. No one did. Cersi (ok not the most reliable pov) says that the conclave was near electing a new HS when the HS showed up with a group of sparrows "with their axes" and a re-vote was held.

So his vetting process consisted entirely of "my friends are well armed and out number you. and they say I'm ok"

Although I don't exactly disagree I do suspect "I swear mi lords by the old gods and the new" is more a turn of phrase than an example of mixed faith. Also, how would Howland Reed, who we agree holds the old gods, be so well versed in the dogma of the 7?

He is a lord. He probably has some education on the predominant religion of the 7Ks. And he could have gotten a tutor and read the book on his way down when he was touring villages.

I acknowledge that this is all "maybe and could be" but there is something funny going on with the HS and a lot of clues point to HR once again saving house Stark in the way we least expect.

[Light a wight tonight]

There is also a manpower reservoir among the disaffected residents of KL who have suffered under the monarchy since before the battle of the Blackwater. It would be wise not to underestimate the power of a popular uprising against a "real army". IRL there are a number of examples of 'Arab Spring' movements which have overthrown established dictators.

The commoners of KL don't have our historical perspective. They don't view their situation as suffering under a monarchy, since they don't have a conception of any other system. And the monarchy isn't actually oppressing them. There are plenty of prosperous residents as well as an underclass. That underclass would be the same in any system.

Arab Springs only succeed with outside help and generally bring in a worse government than they overthrow. I don't see Braavos or Lys supporting a rebellion in Westeros.

[SpringKing]

Although I don't exactly disagree I do suspect "I swear mi lords by the old gods and the new" is more a turn of phrase than an example of mixed faith. Also, how would Howland Reed, who we agree holds the old gods, be so well versed in the dogma of the 7?

By the old gods and the new is more than just a turn of phrase. A number of solemn oaths are sworn using that phrase. "A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new." Sam and Sansa are both dual-worshipers, Sam having taken to the old gods with Jon when they swore themselves to the NW. Jeyne Westerling also seems to combo the old and new "Very good. I will add my prayers as well. To the old gods and the new.”

HR would have versed himself in the Fot7 simply by reading the Seven Pointed Star. In fact, when the HS quotes it to Cersei, he sounds much like a schoolboy reciting the history and fundamentals of the faith.

The commoners of KL don't have our historical perspective. They don't view their situation as suffering under a monarchy, since they don't have a conception of any other system. And the monarchy isn't actually oppressing them. There are plenty of prosperous residents as well as an underclass. That underclass would be the same in any system.

Arab Springs only succeed with outside help and generally bring in a worse government than they overthrow. I don't see Braavos or Lys supporting a rebellion in Westeros.

Commoners dont need a historical perspective to realize theyre suffering under a particular monarch - Cersei. Popular uprisings often just trade one dictator for another. The rabble in KL isnt a democratic groundwswell. Their rioting is simply a loud, violent message to the ruling class that the needs of the people have to be met, by one ruler or the next. The genius of the new HS is that his revival of the Faith Militant means most of the credit for improving the smallfolk's lot will go to him, garnering even more adherents to his cause.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Is there enough time?

1)Cersei orders the previous high sparrow's death and a month or less later the new one is appointed.

2)How long does it take to travel from the Neck to Kings Landing while avoiding the various outlaws and armies and also finding supporters.

3)Greywater watch is said to be moving and can not be reached by the Ravens. Also, according to Meera they don't have Maesters, the people who train and keep Ravens.

While this doesn't stop Howland Reed finding out it does add more time to the scenario. Not only are the people of the Neck old god's followers, but they are also isolationists which suggest this news would not be highly important.

4)Howlend Reed would have to an indepth knowledge of how and why a High Septon is elected. The previous two were elected because they could be used as pawns by Lannisters, the current one's election was considered against the norm. How could Reed know that this unorthodox plan would work.

5)He forgave the debt and armed the followers of the 7. This is not good news for worshippers of the Old Gods. Potentially very bad for both the North and the Neck who stand in the way of any holy war.

[SpringKing]

1 & 2 - As noted, Brienne meets the HS on the Trident when he is an itinerant septon. He invites her to follow him to KL. The new HS was nearby KL when the old HS was murdered.

3 - Robb sent Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover to HR before the Red Wedding. HR was supposed to help Robb infiltrate past Moat Cailin after the wedding. The HR=HS theory presumes HR decided on a different form of infiltration after Robb was killed, posing as a traveling septon and gathering armed sparrows before marching on KL.

4 - Chalk the new HS's serendipitous timing up to 'poetic license'. This is fantasy where miracles like Cat's revival as Lady Stoneheart happen purely because the author imagines it so.

5 - The 'Holy War' will be against the infidel Lannisters occupying the IT. The faith of the Seven and the worshippers of the old gods have coexisted peacefully since before the conquest. It could as well turn out that the God of Light becomes an established religion in Westeros, rather than a fringe sect of red priests. Or that the Others are just faithful servants of the Many Faced God ;}

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 & 2 - As noted, Brienne meets the HS on the Trident when he is an itinerant septon. He invites her to follow him to KL. The new HS was nearby KL when the old HS was murdered.

What chapter does this take place? I know that she meets one itinerant septon, Meribald, in the Riverlands who is six feet tall.

5 - The 'Holy War' will be against the infidel Lannisters occupying the IT. The faith of the Seven and the worshippers of the old gods have coexisted peacefully since before the conquest.

The 7 worshipping Andal extinguished the Old Gods worshippers in most of Westeros. Why do you think they burned down the weirwoods in the South. That is hardly peaceful coexistence.

[SpringKing]

Brienne 1 AFFC

“Join us, friends,” urged a spare small man in a threadbare septon’s robe, who wore a crystal on a thong about his neck. “Westeros has need of every sword.”

“We were bound for Duskendale,” declared Ser Creighton, “but mayhaps we could see you safely to King’s Landing.”

“If you have the coin to pay us for this escort,” added Ser Illifer, who seemed practical as well as penniless.

“Sparrows need no gold,” the septon said.

Ser Creighton was lost. “Sparrows?”

“The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men.” The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. “These are the bones of holy men, murdered for their faith. They served the Seven even unto death. Some starved, some were tortured. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith. Come with us to the city, if you love the Seven.”

Yes, there was war between the Andals and the First Men/children 2000-6000 years ago. Peaceful coexistence, so far as we know, between their two religions since then.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Yes helping arm the 7 isn't necessarily plan A. But desperate times. But than if the idea is an independent north then chaos in the south is good in any form. An new faith vs the IT war would be good for an independent North. And eventually (when there was a winner) they would still have to get through moat catlin.

But I don't think raising the faith militant was the original plan. I think the plan was to infiltrate KL and be ready to open the gates / cause trouble then the opportunity just presented itself so he went with it.

[liknar]

The peace of the graveyard. We don't see many places were the two are coexisting in the same place. White harbor is the only place in the North to have the 7. So they are essentially an isolated community that the Starks protected out of there largeness. Which explains their devotion to the Starks. And the south is entirely devoid of the old god as far as anyone can see. It has been implied that the freys and the swam people in the neck hate each other, perhaps partially due to a difference of faith. We have also only seen the faith of the seven after the Targ have essentailly neutered the church by taking away their arms. Correct me if I am wrong about the distribution of the faith.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Brienne 1 AFFC

This takes place around 2 months before the High Septon is dead. How does he know?

Its also around 25 days after the Red Wedding.

There are no maesters or Ravens at Greywater watch. So news would not have instantly reached Howland Reed, who was supposed to be there after all guarding the Neck, is there enough time to travel to Kings Landing in that time?

Yes, there was war between the Andals and the First Men/children 2000-6000 years ago. Peaceful coexistence, so far as we know, between their two religions since then.

The people who worshipped the Old Gods lived all throughout Westeros after the Andals came they, with a few exceptions, only lived in the North. Moat Cailin repelled constant southern attacks so I don't think it was the peaceful coexistence you make it out to be.

[Victor227]

I rather like the High Septon as we're presented to him, a man who came out of nowhere as a reaction to the utter rape and pillage of the realm throughout the war. It's a development that none of the 'players' could have foreseen, an organic development of the lowest people rejecting the pig-headed ambitious nonsense of the 'game', and a man who wants to take their destiny back into their own hands.

In a world where a person apparently can't take a drink without it having been planned weeks and months in advance by a schemer, it's some much-needed spontaneity.

[Eli Stark]

It begs the question though, why the hell would he be in Kings Landing? He has zero reason to be there, everyone/thing he has ties to is in the North

Mayhaps he's there to announce to the realm that Jon is the true rightful heir to the Iron Throne!

Just sayin' is all, though I don't believe it. I'm sure some crackpot, somewhere, will.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I also don't really understand what Howland Reeds motives for doing this would be. She may be a horrible person, but it was Joffrey, who was responsible for Neds death and Tywin, Roose and Walder who were responsible for Robbs. Surely the focus of Reed's vengeance would be the man sitting up North

Cersei doing the walk of shame is actually not bad for either the Lannisters or Westeros as Kevan, a hugely more competent leader, becomes Lord Regent of Westeros and defacto leader of the Lannisters.

[Jasta11]

I rather like the High Septon as we're presented to him, a man who came out of nowhere as a reaction to the utter rape and pillage of the realm throughout the war. It's a development that none of the 'players' could have foreseen, an organic development of the lowest people rejecting the pig-headed ambitious nonsense of the 'game', and a man who wants to take their destiny back into their own hands.

In a world where a person apparently can't take a drink without it having been planned weeks and months in advance by a schemer, it's some much-needed spontaneity.

Yeah, I do think any idea of Howland Reed planning this sort of stunt is way too far-fetched.

I mean, the crannogmen are cunning and all, but that plan is just so random if you don't have in-depth knowledge of how the Faith works and how much the common folk are devastated by the war. ''yeah, I'm going to take over the Faith by force of arms. Even though I keep the Old Gods, have barely wandered outside of my marsh at all, have no contacts south of the Neck, have no reliable means to know what's going in KL because my damn castle is moving all the time, my people are still under attack by Ironborn, my allies in the North are in deep shite, and King's Landing is two month's march away passing through a war zone. But apart from that I'm sure everything will be fine, that plan cannot fail''.

And can't it just be that the crannogmen are not the only people on the entire continent who are small and grey of hair? Must every single character be a secret noble of some sort? The plans of some characters *cough Littlefinger cough* already stretch credibility by how flawless they are pulled off even when plenty of variables could easily go wrong, I don't think we need HR being yet another scheming super-genius who can bend the plot to his will.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

As I said, he was at the tourney of Harrenhal, and fought the war with Ned. Though not a famous person that would be recognized everywhere he goes, like Jaime, the risk of him being recognized by someone, especially being a High Septon, is enormous. The Freys have a very thorny relationship with the crannogmen, likely they'd be the first to reveal the farse.

The thing is that tourney of Harrenhal and RR were 17-18 years prior. And that's the only time he probably ever went South. He's been chilling in Greywater Watch ever since i doubt anyone would remember his face. Even if they did see him no one probably paid much attention to him. It's not too hard to go past unnoticed. Look at varys and the disguises he uses. Look at Arya. Maybe his connection with the old Gods gave him some ability to use glamour. I.e. Bloodraven as Maynard Plumm. This theory is definitely a very far stretch but it is still possible

[Eli Stark]

The commoners of KL don't have our historical perspective. They don't view their situation as suffering under a monarchy, since they don't have a conception of any other system. And the monarchy isn't actually oppressing them. There are plenty of prosperous residents as well as an underclass. That underclass would be the same in any system.

Arab Springs only succeed with outside help and generally bring in a worse government than they overthrow. I don't see Braavos or Lys supporting a rebellion in Westeros.

When the Russian revolution happened in 1917-without outside help-many of the soldiers that the Czar sent to put down the rebellion ended up fighting with all the common people, since that is what they grew up as. That is why popular uprisings can be so powerful, the militaries often have strong, natural sympathies with the common people as that is what they used to be and their families usually still are.

You are right in that the replacement governments are often worse, but a people angry enough to revolt will often roll the dice on that. In my example it's debatable whether the Romanovs or Communists were worse to the Russian people.

[SpringKing]

This takes place around 2 months before the High Septon is dead. How does he know?

Its also around 25 days after the Red Wedding.

There are no maesters or Ravens at Greywater watch. So news would not have instantly reached Howland Reed, who was supposed to be there after all guarding the Neck, is there enough time to travel to Kings Landing in that time?

The people who worshipped the Old Gods lived all throughout Westeros after the Andals came they, with a few exceptions, only lived in the North. Moat Cailin repelled constant southern attacks so I don't think it was the peaceful coexistence you make it out to be.

I recall GRRM saying he purposely didnt include dates because hair-splitting fans would crucify him on chronological inconsistencies. HR's foreknowledge I'd attribute to having another greenseer like Jojen around. Eli Stark may have hit on the ultimate motive for HR to be in KL - someone would need to vouch for Jon's lineage. HR is the last remaining eyewitness.

Do kinda like the idea of the 'good guys' having a machiavellian LF type on their side though.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I recall GRRM saying he purposely didnt include dates because hair-splitting fans would crucify him on chronological inconsistencies. HR's foreknowledge I'd attribute to having another greenseer like Jojen around. Eli Stark may have hit on the ultimate motive for HR to be in KL - someone would need to vouch for Jon's lineage. HR is the last remaining eyewitness.

Do kinda like the idea of the 'good guys' having a machiavellian LF type on their side though.

Do you not see how ridiculous that is, a Greenseer to tell how to get revenge on Robbs death. Robb has only just died, surely the first thing to do is warn Robb. And where was these Greenseers when Ned was imprisoned and executed or to stop many of the deluge of crap that has came the Starks way?

What we have seen is that a Greenseers prediction is only clear after the event. Predicting Reek would kill Bran and Rickon or Winterfell being swept away by the sea does nothing to stop them happening. It would have to be pretty damn specific for Howland to abandon his home on the off chance the dream came true in the exact same way it was dreamt.

Howland Reed is in Kings Landing pretending to be someone else only to tell everyone that Ned was only pretending to be Jons father? Why would anyone believe that?