Tyrion & Shae

[Idioteque]

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? People are capable of thinking on different levels simultaneously. It's perfectly possible to be deeply sympathetic to Tyrion's horrible upbringing AND be outraged by his crimes at the same time.

it doesn't. i was just sarcastically trying to express an hater's pov.

but honestly, wtf. she was a whore, ok, tyrion kept her hidden because his father told him he didnt want to see his whores in the keep, but she went from camp follower to the royal court. the singer threatened to blackmail him. i dont think he deserved such betrayal. is killing her "good" in any way? nope. never said that.

[JesterX]

In the series when/if it comes to that, Shae deserves it. In the books, absolutely not. In the books she never told Tyrion she loved him or asked him to run off with her. She really did little to nothing to make him think she loved him - in the book. She basically treated him like what he was, her benefactor and nothing more.

Consequently, if she had kept her mouth shut when he found her in his father's bed, I don't think he would've killed her.

[complexphoenix]

I thought Shae's death was quite sad. She testified under duress from Cersei, Tywin took advantage of her and was probably going to kill her once he got bored with her, and then she had the misfortune to encounter Tyrion when he was at his lowest and most dangerous point in the immediate aftermath of learning the truth about Tysha. I understand why Tyrion did what he did, she did betray him after all, but he shouldn't have done it. I think the real reason he killed her was because he hated himself for thinking that she could replace Tysha. He killed both her and Tywin to affirm Tysha and the love they shared and lost.

[4th Dragon Head]

I don't think she was "forced" to testify. From what I gathered, she testified bc Cercei offered her gold, or a house or something. At the start of aFFC, Cercei recognizes Shae, and mentions that she came to her the other day to see about keeping some jewels given to her by Tyron. People who were forced to do something aren't likely to just go back to the person that forced them and say, "Oh by the way, we are good on the whole you making me do stuff, but I'd really like to talk about those jewels you said I could get."

And as far as I know, there is no evidence to Tywin making her sleep with him. In fact, if you recall CoK, Varys says the tunnel leading out of Chataya's was built for "another hand, whose honor would not allow him to be there (paraphrase)." Maybe its me, but I interpreted that as Tywin was a big fan of the who're houses but didn't want people to know. So I think he just wanted to get some tail, and she was willing because she's a heartless wanton

[Dany Girl]

Ya because Shea seems stupid enough to just randomly walk up to the Queen and say, "you know that Kingslaying brother of yours, ya, I was his whore but he hadn't payed me, will you pay me so I can be on my way? Oh, if you want I'll even testify against him!"

More likely, Cersei finds out Shea was his whore, had her brought before her, threatens her, Shea agrees to testify, but asks for her payments in return.

Shea wasn't a dumb girl. She's been on her own for years and been a whore the whole time. She's learned a trick or two as well as when to shut her mouth. I highly doubt she'd just approach the queen all on her own.

[Leonardo]

I honestly don't get why people are so rough on Shae. How does anyone know she wasn't sincere?

Because she caved under torture by Cersei and Tywin? Excuse me while I wait to see how you respond to similar torture and end up denouncing your own mother, daughter, and wife.

She wasn't tortured; Cersei offered her exactly what Tyrion did, a knightly husband and a manse, and gold of course.

Pretty far cry from torture.

[Kienn]

She wasn't tortured; Cersei offered her exactly what Tyrion did, a knightly husband and a manse, and gold of course.

Pretty far cry from torture.

Iirc that was tyrion's assumption whereas from

Cersei we learn shae "broke quickly".

[Dany Girl]

Iirc that was tyrion's assumption whereas from

Cersei we learn shae "broke quickly".

Ya, kinda believe Cersei, who was there, over Tyrion, who wasn't.

[4th Dragon Head]

I don't think she approached her. Cercei had all of Sansa and Tyron's questioned.

Cercei operates in one of two ways, promises or threats. I think she promised Shae some things in exchange for her lies. Clearly, IMO, she didn't threaten her, bc as you say, Shae isn't stupid, so I don't think she would be dumb enough to go ask Cercei for gold and jewels if Cercei had been threatening her. I even somewhat understand her agreeing to lie to get money, she is a whore, that's what they do.

BUT, I can't fault Tyrion for wanting to kill her after she lied about what he said and did, and basically was one of the key factors in him getting convicted (and thus demanding a trial by combat). Especially when she called him "her giant", when the last time he heard that, he was being laughed at by everyone that he knew. As someone said in an earlier comment, that was the final straw.

She lied, schemed, and manipulated her way into getting rich, all the while breaking the heart of Tyrion, who loved her, and she got what she deserved. She tried to play the game, and when you play, you win or you die. She died. Good Riddance

[Kienn]

I don't think she approached her. Cercei had all of Sansa and Tyron's questioned.

Cercei operates in one of two ways, promises or threats. I think she promised Shae some things in exchange for her lies. Clearly, IMO, she didn't threaten her, bc as you say, Shae isn't stupid, so I don't think she would be dumb enough to go ask Cercei for gold and jewels if Cercei had been threatening her. I even somewhat understand her agreeing to lie to get money, she is a whore, that's what they do.

BUT, I can't fault Tyrion for wanting to kill her after she lied about what he said and did, and basically was one of the key factors in him getting convicted (and thus demanding a trial by combat). Especially when she called him "her giant", when the last time he heard that, he was being laughed at by everyone that he knew. As someone said in an earlier comment, that was the final straw.

She lied, schemed, and manipulated her way into getting rich, all the while breaking the heart of Tyrion, who loved her, and she got what she deserved. She tried to play the game, and when you play, you win or you die. She died. Good Riddance

Or she was a powerless(as most smallfolk are) person just trying to live in a harsh world while the highborn tossed her around like a used dishrag for their own purposes.

[Chillboy]

When Tyrion lost his power and was imprisoned, she just changed her lover to the new Hand and betrayed Tyrion because she thought he would die anyway. I can fully understand Tyrion when he kills her. A Lannister always pays his debts.

[Dorian Martell]

How do you know she wasn't forced to testify? Cersei easily could have found out about her. Look how Alayana (sp?) was treated. Think Cersei would spare Shea if she found out about her? No way. I believe that Shea was likely forced to testify. Then Tywin probably propositioned her and since she had NOTHING, she had no choice but to be with him. Tyrion left her destitute by not allowing her any of her payments. No gold, no jewels, no silks. How else was she supposed to support herself?

Shea is a victim that did not deserve to die.

Shae was promised a house, the jewelry that Tyrion gave her and a Knight to be her husband. That is why she testified. No love, just pure whore. When Shae went to Cersei to collect, she was told that until she revealed Sansa's escape plan she would get nothing being told "You were her servant, do you expect me to belive you knew nothing of her plans?" So she probably went to Tywin, the new hand to get her due, and now we know he secretly loved whoring. Bam!

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Ok. I'm a big Tyrion fan. (I personally hope he gets CR in the end) but let's talk honestly about prostitution.

It is not a fun summer job you take because things are going great in your life. It's dehumanizing work where you're used for sex and then paid (so it's ok). Shae was not in a position to say no to Tyrion, Tywin, or Cersi.

As to Shae in particular. I'm not sure what loyalty she owed Tyrion. Yes HE was in love with her. But so? That was pretty delusional on his part.

Shae did what she had to to stay alive. I'm willing to let Tyrion off the hook because he felt angry/scared/betrayed and acted badly (ie murdering her). But instead of arguing about whether Shae should have done what either Cersi or Tywin told her I think we should be arguing about what those two owed Tyrion.

Shae had no choice in the matter, whether she had any obligation to her former employer is irrelevant. Blame the villains not the victim.

[JesterX]

It's quite common in the world, old, new, and fictional, to both threaten AND bribe people at the same time. The threat makes the bribe sweeter.

"Hey, you could be killed/tortured, or you can get a lot of money. Which is it?"

Like that.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I had a length discussion about this in the TV forum recently. Shae was under any obligation to Tyrion, as has been noted he kept her locked up, ensured she had no contact with anyone outside of his employ took away the jewels he had given her, made her work as a servant, withheld payment, and ultimately when he was arrested she went against him, maybe Cersei had her beaten, promised her things, maybe she was just trying to get out of KL alive! Does anyone think she was in any position to say NO when Tywin Lannister the most powerful man in the realm says he wants her in his bed?

I'll pull out some of my posts from that other thread.

[Cas Stark]

It isn't an either or thing. Shae was whore, she lacked empathy, she cared about money, she was totally trolling Tyrion for the duration of their "relationship". She's a bad person.

That doesn't excuse Tyrion from murdering her in a fit of juvenile rage or from fooling himself about the nature of their relationship to begin with..she is a whore he is paying to be his "girlfriend".

Of course she was going to jump ship as soon as Tyrion was arrested because she was already POd about not getting what she wanted. And there should be no surprise that she is found with Tywin, because, she's not a poor servant girl, she is a whore, this is what she does for a living, has sex with men in return for money.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I totally understand WHY he killed her, I just am a bit sickened by the readership section who say she deserved to die or that seem to think she owed him something? She owes him nothing, she was doing her job, he was paying her for that job by way of goods but he never actually gives her cash, which she would need in order to leave him. She is essentially a bird in a gilded cage, and even worse once he demotes her from concubine to house maid she is actually just an abused servant. He wanted to be loved so he pays a whore to "love" him. I mean its really naive of him to expect that prostitute to actually fall in love with him, especially as he has trapped her in a dangerous position, and as I've pointed out previously what exactly are her alternatives? go back to a life of grime and squaller in the camps where she could be murdered at any point anyway, imagine if you are the camp follower who has the misfortune to have Gregor Clegane open your tent flap one night? or Biter? she did what she had to in a trial that was a kangaroo court anyway who the hell can blame her, do her detractors feel she ought to have laid down her life rather than "betray" him?

[Lee-Sensei]

When Tyrion lost his power and was imprisoned, she just changed her lover to the new Hand and betrayed Tyrion because she thought he would die anyway. I can fully understand Tyrion when he kills her. A Lannister always pays his debts.

He actually withheld payment so... nope.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

and another:

Look at the facts.

We have Shea's account of why she has turned to prostitution, Her father tried to make her his Kitchen Wench and his Whore, so we have a young girl who has run from an abusive exploitative home where her father was raping her, or had made it clear she was going to be sexually abused by him as well as be made to be essentially a slave.

She is very beautiful, she is also very young being born in 281 which puts her at 17 at the start of the series. So a woman but still very young,

Bronn brought her to Tyrion, so we have no reason to believe she is a plant by Tywin, yes he could have sent her to Bronn, but we have Bronns own account of how he found her and as he is his own man I'm inclined to believe him.

he brings her to KL and sets her up in a town house, where she is forbidden from going out into KL and has to basically sit around waiting for him to show up and have sex with her. he does not pay her in cash, which she could use to escape, he gifts her gowns & jewels and provides a nice home and food. Its a shit load better than anything else she's ever experienced in her life but she is still a captive essentially. Even going so far as to have a singer whom she befriends murdered and fed to the cities poor.

but as the battle of the blackwater approaches he decides to move her to the Red Keep, to kepp her safe, well she can no longer enjoy the comforts which passed as pay, she cannot wear her gowns, nor her jewels and instead of enjoying rich food and leisure time she is a servant. He still is not paying her in stags or dragons so how prey tell can she do one?

he even decided after he has now made her maid to his wife, that he will marry her off to ser Tallad in order to protect her from suspicion, so he's not only fucking her without paying her & keeping her trapped within the Red Keep, but he's decided he'll grant another man, not of her choosing the privilege to fuck her too!

After he is arrested Cersei approaches her to testify, she either threatens or bribes her to speak against Tyrion, and she does. She lies that he & sansa conspired to kill the King and she reveals their affair, even intimate details. But I ask you why the hell should she have died for him to keep his secrets? its very likely she had no real options, and if she could gain a stab at a good life, one which she previously had no hope of attaining why the hell not?

And she sleeps with Tywin and again I ask did she have a choice, imagine you are a young whore, and the most powerful man in the realms wants you in his bed. Yea I bet you 'd feel so empowered to refuse him...

[maiden of tarth]

Hmmmm let me think here. What would I do? Be Qyburns new play thing or give evidence against my latest client. Decisions, decisions!

HOW can anyone truly believe that Shae gave evidence against Tyrion of her own free will? Look what Cersei did to that bard just so that he would do what she wanted.

Seriously people!!!