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R+L=J v.76


Angalin

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If there is everything to gain and nothing to lose take the bet... If there is nothing to be gained and anything to be lost do not,

I am wondering just how far predictions and speculation would get if they were tied to a credibility or accuracy meter?

With the forthcoming release of WoW, it just might be possible to do exactly that,

In short now seems a good time to place a bet...

R plus L equals J

Jon is legitimate---without the how

Now for some bolder bets

Jon was born after the showdown at the ToJ

Ned's promise was to raise Jon as a son---Not to protect him from Robert

The vow Gerold explained was a vow to Rhaegar

Since we know Lyanna died of a fever, I'm gonna bet Jon was born before the showdown. Women who die of postpartum fever often do so days, even weeks after the delivery. It's often cause by a part of the placenta not being ejected or tear in the vagina becoming infected.

The most famous historical example of a death from postpartum fever is Jane Seymore. She was fine for three or four days, then suddenly took a turn for the worse.

I guess it's possible she had a fever that brought on early labour, or something.

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Let's have a look at what GRRM has to say about this feeling of yours ;)

Source

Hey Frozen sense your following this stuff so closely, I was wondering if you had any idea about the 4th trailer. It's over in the winds section, and I was wondering who the woman was after the shot of the 3 fires? I asked over there but they are all talking about a boat, swear to god I don't know what is up with boats, and chess pieces today.

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First, Ned has no reason to fault the Kingsguard for any of their actions, even years later. So, obviously something was much more important than Lyanna in the tower. If they had been holding Lyanna hostage, why did they reference their vow? It doesn't make sense.

Lyanna certainly can choose to marry the prince, especially if Elia is no longer capable of providing heirs. It seems funny to me that anyone would suggest that Lyanna was forced to do anything. We are talking about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the gal who laid into three squires, and wanted to carry her own sword.

I am sure many people fought and killed others who were their friends or peers during the war. That does not mean they thought less of the ones they had to kill. Enemies can still honor one another, especially when they found them honorable before they were enemies. I don't believe Lya was the KotLT. I think it was Ned. But the KotLT was never found by Rhaegar so was never revealed. Even Meera and Jojen do not seem to know or agree on the identity. Anyway that has nothing to do with Lyanna being forced into something. The KG would not let Lyanna be approached by Ned.

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Since we know Lyanna died of a fever, I'm gonna bet Jon was born before the showdown. Women who die of postpartum fever often do so days, even weeks after the delivery. It's often cause by a part of the placenta not being ejected or tear in the vagina becoming infected.

The most famous historical example of a death from postpartum fever is Jane Seymore. She was fine for three or four days, then suddenly took a turn for the worse.

I guess it's possible she had a fever that brought on early labour, or something.

Puerperal fever is within the first three days... the cause of the fever is sepsus. and its onset is rapid.

When Lyanna died "they" found Ned. Immediately after the skirmish only Ned and Howland were alive outside the tower....

But mark Julia Martell for pre fight birth....

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Puerperal fever is within the first three days... the cause of the fever is sepsus. and its onset is rapid.

When Lyanna died "they" found Ned. Immediately after the skirmish only Ned and Howland were alive outside the tower....

But mark Julia Martell for pre fight birth....

I'm terrified of quibbling with you since you sound like you know what your talking about and I teach grade 3, but..

"Puerperal fever or childbed fever or puerperal infection, is a condition that results from an infection of the female reproductive organs, contracted during or following childbirth or miscarriage. Usually diagnosed when cases of fever of 100.4° F (38° C) and higher during the first 10 days following delivery or miscarriage are found. If untreated, it is often fatal."

"Elizabeth of York, the mother of Henry VIII of England, died of puerperal fever one week after giving birth to a daughter. [...] Suzanne Barnard, mother of philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau, contracted childbed fever after giving birth to him, and died nine days later."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

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I'm terrified of quibbling with you since you sound like you know what your talking about and I teach grade 3, but..

"Puerperal fever or childbed fever or puerperal infection, is a condition that results from an infection of the female reproductive organs, contracted during or following childbirth or miscarriage. Usually diagnosed when cases of fever of 100.4° F (38° C) and higher during the first 10 days following delivery or miscarriage are found. If untreated, it is often fatal."

"Elizabeth of York, the mother of Henry VIII of England, died of puerperal fever one week after giving birth to a daughter. [...] Suzanne Barnard, mother of philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau, contracted childbed fever after giving birth to him, and died nine days later."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

My grandfathers aunt died from it too when he was little and the experience traumatized him.

He said he could hear her screams throughout the house. Apparently the forceps the doctor used were contaminated.

When his own children were born at the hospital, he couldnt even wait in the waiting room with the other fathers, but had to leave.

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My grandfathers aunt died from it too when he was little and the experience traumatized him.

He said he could hear her screams throughout the house. Apparently the forceps the doctor used were contaminated.

When his own children were born at the hospital, he couldnt even wait in the waiting room with the other fathers, but had to leave.

Jesus. That's horrible. Sterile Technique people. It's important.

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I'm terrified of quibbling with you since you sound like you know what your talking about and I teach grade 3, but..

"Puerperal fever or childbed fever or puerperal infection, is a condition that results from an infection of the female reproductive organs, contracted during or following childbirth or miscarriage. Usually diagnosed when cases of fever of 100.4° F (38° C) and higher during the first 10 days following delivery or miscarriage are found. If untreated, it is often fatal."

"Elizabeth of York, the mother of Henry VIII of England, died of puerperal fever one week after giving birth to a daughter. [...] Suzanne Barnard, mother of philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau, contracted childbed fever after giving birth to him, and died nine days later."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever

Historically, puerperal fever was a devastating disease. It affected women within the first three days after childbirth and progressed rapidly, causing acute symptoms of severe abdominal pain, fever and debility.

same wiki a paragraph down

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Historically, puerperal fever was a devastating disease. It affected women within the first three days after childbirth and progressed rapidly, causing acute symptoms of severe abdominal pain, fever and debility.

same wiki a paragraph down

Good find. :blushing: How would you explain the historical examples that talk about the mothers dying more than a week afterwards?

And also, what do you mean by acute? Surely not just hours after birth.

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Good find. :blushing: How would you explain the historical examples that talk about the mothers dying more than a week afterwards?

And also, what do you mean by acute? Surely not just hours after birth

It can be up to a couple of weeks after. It can also be pretty shortly after depending on the nature of the bacteria or the infection.

I took blood of bed to mean ned found her in childbirth... not some time after..

It can also be from a UTI unrelated to the birth alone.... if she had the uti and sepsis going in to childbirth she might have been lucky just to live through it.

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Alright. In conclusion, the fact she had a fever means nothing for the "when Jon was born timeline".

Great.

It might and it might not....

If she had been lying in a bed of blood for a week or so before Ned got there Puerperal fever would be almost a given. It would also make the KG some really bad people to have left in charge, One could hardly call them protecting anything.

Do you think Ned would have thought so kindly of Dayne had he found his sister dying of an infection in squalor.

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First, Ned has no reason to fault the Kingsguard for any of their actions, even years later. So, obviously something was much more important than Lyanna in the tower. If they had been holding Lyanna hostage, why did they reference their vow? It doesn't make sense.

Lyanna certainly can choose to marry the prince, especially if Elia is no longer capable of providing heirs. It seems funny to me that anyone would suggest that Lyanna was forced to do anything. We are talking about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the gal who laid into three squires, and wanted to carry her own sword.

Ned thinks the guy who killed the man who murdered his father and brother is a traitor to his king.

Ned thinks the guys who held his sister hostage were heroes.

In other words, Ned is an idiot. That is all there is to it.

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I think you both missed the points I was trying to make... let me try again.

I don't think that, assuming Ashara had a stillborn daughter who's father was Brandon Stark, meaning Ned brother, that it could have been soon before Ned brought Dawn to Starfall. Before Rhaegar and Lyanna left Brandon was at Winterfell and Ashara was, god know where, but presumably not in Winterfell. They couldn't have been doing any baby making in this timeframe. So unless they go together after her left Winterfell but before he charged into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar's head, their chid would have to have been born much earlier than the ToJ events.

When I said the dream wasn't literal I didn't mean that Ned had never had this dream before, just that it wasn't necessarily exactly how it happen in the dream. They didn't necessarily pose and exchange hauntingly beautifully prose that makes me cry every time I read it. Perhaps they exchange this information with other words or, I don't know, they just looked at each other and no words were necessary.

You have put your finger on the central problem with the R+L=J theory: it does not account for Ashara's disappearance.

The best explanation for Ashara's disappearance is that she took Lyanna's purple-eyed baby into exile in Essos whilst Ned took her Stark looking baby by Ned -- Jon-- to Winterfell.

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It can be up to a couple of weeks after. It can also be pretty shortly after depending on the nature of the bacteria or the infection.

I took blood of bed to mean ned found her in childbirth... not some time after..

It can also be from a UTI unrelated to the birth alone.... if she had the uti and sepsis going in to childbirth she might have been lucky just to live through it.

You took it that way because it reads that way.

“and Lyanna in her bed of blood.”

“Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood.”

“in a room that smelled of blood and roses”

She is in the bed and it's written that way in both chapters. The room also smelled of blood and roses, it's not part of the dream but a recollection, so it seems the birth should not have been weeks before his arrival. It's the room that smells of blood I doubt it holds that smell for long, once it dries the metallic smell is gone.

“Promise me, she had cried”

One thing I always wondered is that if this cried as in cried out, or crying or both. One gives a more earnest or perhaps a desperate nature to the promise. There is another rather vocal moment associated from the dream, a scream. The whisper promise and the "cried promised" I tend to wonder if they are one in the same or different. Not really a big deal, probably a crying whisper or something.

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You have put your finger on the central problem with the R+L=J theory: it does not account for Ashara's disappearance.

The best explanation for Ashara's disappearance is that she took Lyanna's purple-eyed baby into exile in Essos whilst Ned took her Stark looking baby by Ned -- Jon-- to Winterfell.

You have put your finger on the central problem with the R+L=J theory: it does not account for hot pigeon pie being served at Joffrey's wedding!

The best explanation for serving hot pigeon pie at the wedding was that there were pigeons available in King's Landing, but all those pigeons were exported and other pigeons were imported from Braavos.

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You have put your finger on the central problem with the R+L=J theory: it does not account for hot pigeon pie being served at Joffrey's wedding!

The best explanation for serving hot pigeon pie at the wedding was that there were pigeons available in King's Landing, but all those pigeons were exported and other pigeons were imported from Braavos.

And Joffrey is actually a imported slave imposter and the original one is being held as a slave somewhere in Myr.

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Alright. In conclusion, the fact she had a fever means nothing for the "when Jon was born timeline".

Great.

I see you've run into the wonders of the thread right at the start.

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