Benioff, Weiss On Board for 2 More Years

[Konradsmith]

The reason I thought to compare it to Blackwater was what Alan Sepinwall said in that podcast a week or two ago, that it's a much more focused episode, like Blackwater. And also that Benioff said that half of the episode revolves around King's Landing. And that GrrM wrote it.

I didn't expect it to have the scope or weight of Blackwater, just the focus and concentrated quality. Again, thanks for answering, Ran.

[Rashtibram]

Actually, I guess the real best comparison might be "And Now His Watch is Ended", being similarly in the first half of the season.

It's no "And Now His Watch is Ended", either. It's ... look, it's fine, and the Unsullied will get their Big Shocking Moment and that will make them happy.

Alright, well, that actually makes me feel a lot better about it. Not sure why, but I always judge the show by it's own merits (as opposed to constantly comparing it with the novels), and I was never expecting anything in it to fully live up to Martin's work anyway; I'm just looking for good TV, and you seem to think Unsullied will get a kick out of it. Thanks for the quick response.

[Le Cygne]

Le Cygne,

"He's in awe of her" is such a subjective opinion. I don't think he's in awe of her at all. He's a courageous person himself, or imagines himself to be one. It's surprising that this ugly, oversized woman is also brave, and he respects bravery, but _awe_? Really?

Really. He admires her greatly.

Seems like Benioff and Weiss think he admires her greatly, too. He bought her a new set of armor on the show. To go with the priceless Valyrian steel sword. And the quest to restore his honor.

[Ran]

He does admire her in a fairly unqualified way, yes. Later, though, not by the time of this particular scene.

[Le Cygne]

He does admire her in a fairly unqualified way, yes. Later, though, not by the time of this particular scene.

No, he was thinking about how brave she was repeatedly by the time of this particular scene.

[Konradsmith]

Ran, were there any new episode-ending songs?(A la Rains of Castamere in S2 and Bear and the Maiden Fair in s3) Again, I don't expect you to specify just say a yes or no.

[Ran]

That's a pretty qualified admiration, what with all the pig-headed and stupid things thrown in, don't you think? His much less qualified admiration is later, following Harrenhal.

Regardless, it's pretty clear that the question of cowardice is deeply personal and in no way does Brienne's bravery or his view of it impact him in that particular scene. It's all about how he views himself, and wants to view himself, not about how he wants Brienne to view him or how he has to live up to her standard or whatever it is you think is there.

Konrad,

No comment.

[Le Cygne]

That's a pretty qualified admiration, what with all the pig-headed and stupid things thrown in, don't you think? His much less qualified admiration is later, following Harrenhal.

Regardless, it's pretty clear that the question of cowardice is deeply personal and in no way does Brienne's bravery or his view of it impact him in that particular scene. It's all about how he views himself, and wants to view himself, not about how he wants Brienne to view him or how he has to live up to her standard or whatever it is you think is there.

I don't take everything a character says literally. I think brave is what stood out, brave is what the author repeated, before, during, and after the scene. I'll go with Jaime is an ass who can't say something nice without something snarky - which is what the author said, too, for once, he let the quips go, when he was all caught up in the bearpit rescue.

And it's pretty clear Brienne impacts him greatly in that particular scene. He thinks she's brave. And that sets up the scene where he has given up living - he wants to die - and she says be brave and live - and he says she's right.

How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?

"Jaime," Brienne whispered, so faintly he thought he was dreaming it. "Jaime, what are you doing?"

"Dying," he whispered back.

"No," she said, "no, you must live."

He wanted to laugh. "Stop telling me what do, wench. I'll die if it pleases me."

“Are you so craven?”...

The wench had the right of it.

Also, Harrenhal doesn't just come out of nowhere, it comes out of what led up to it. He didn't suddenly look at her in Harrenhal and think, time for "unqualified" admiration. In fact, when he sees her bravely facing the bear there, he said:

There's the wench I remember.

It all goes together. And back to the original point, saying "Are you so craven?" has a lot more relevance than "You sound like a bloody woman."

[Konradsmith]

Well, Ran, I'll stop there and not hassle you further. Thanks for answering as much as you did. I'll read into your "no comment" whatever I like to.

"The Dornishman's wife was as fair as the sun..." ;)

[Beric175]

Once again, it does not matter necessarily at which point he admired her. The show is starting to mix ASOS, AFFC and ADWD material together and they're editing a lot of stuff out so the timeline of the books is essentially irrelevant to the show and I don't care because the show is the show and the books are the books. With adaptations, things get changed, deal with it. Some people ship Brienne and Jaimie since book 3 so yeah that's not out of the ordinary and to say he's in awe of her plays right into that.

[Ran]

Yeah, I guess shippers are going to ship regardless of what's there in the books.

Going back to the show line, the fact is that Jaime is not "in awe of" Brienne at that point in the story, but obviously he does respect her courage. His more unqualified view of her is also a development in Harrenhal, since it really follows from his confession in the bath and his recovery from the fever. His opening up to her makes him more capable of accepting the fact some part of him trusts her. I'm sure Jaime respects the bravery of many knights he's met over the years, but the number of men he trusted was probably rather smaller than the number he respected. Same with Brienne, before and after Harrenhal.

So again, no real issue with the line. Jaime doesn't go, "A woman? But if I'm acting like a woman, and Brienne's a woman -- it doesn't compute!" He's not comparing himself to her, he's comparing himself to himself and how he wants to perceive himself.

Anyways, we've gone rather far afield.

[Le Cygne]

As for "what's there in the books," the author just said he wrote a Beauty and the Beast story for Jaime and Brienne. There are indications that he's telling that story from the start, from Brienne the Beauty calling Jaime a monster to "fucking instead of fighting" to "pretty eyes" and on and on, there's lots of detail on the pages. Two of the show directors said they were planting a seed that there's something more than friendship going on between them. The show is following the books.

The reason he opens up to her in the bath is the trust and admiration (that's what I called it) that has been building up gradually between them all along. Jaime expresses himself indirectly. Saying she's a stubborn brave bitch, there is subtext there. He very much admires her courage, and he's also upset that she's about to be raped, and his frustration is coming out. He also says repeatedly, variations of, "Why should I care?" when it's clear he does care. That's the way he's written.

Jaime observed that Brienne is brave, right before and after that scene. Brienne told him to be brave, and he said she was right. This scene was about finding courage, and Brienne is central to that. If this was all about Jaime, he would have found courage on his own. Instead, the author wrote a very different scene. He wants to die. He has given up. She says live. That's big. Brienne is the one who helps Jaime find the courage to live. That's the way the scene was written.

Here's that article, seems many viewers/readers were onto something:

http://tvline.com/2014/03/25/game-of-thrones-season-4-spoilers-gwendoline-christie-brienne-jamie/

[protar]

To be honest I didn't know there was even a debate that Brienne/Jaime was a thing. It's clearly a thing.

[Le Cygne]

To be honest I didn't know there was even a debate that Brienne/Jaime was a thing. It's clearly a thing.

Thank you for this and your other comment, too (about the way women are portrayed).

[go joff go]

Also, it's one of the funniest scenes of the season, really. Because she's right at the moment.

This is so true. It was exactly the right thing to say to theon in that scene. Theon was trying to undermine her in part bevause she was a woman. Yara needed to say something nasty and genderbending at the same time,to keep her men's respect.

[go joff go]

Actually, I guess the real best comparison might be "And Now His Watch is Ended", being similarly in the first half of the season.

It's no "And Now His Watch is Ended", either. It's ... look, it's fine, and the Unsullied will probably be very happy with it.

That's interesting, from you emphasis on the unsullied it sounds like they have made some changes you don't like to the wedding,which makes me think something Canon is changed, because previews so far make it look pretty similar to the book. I do get the sense that maybe the way or maybe even the who of how that scene is executed may be different.

[Nobody of the canals]

Ran,

Are you and Linda planning to publish your first impressions of the first 3 episodes? (like you did for the previous seasons)

Thanks!

[Ran]

I don't know if we've the time. We'll see.

[Arry Lannister]

To be honest I didn't know there was even a debate that Brienne/Jaime was a thing. It's clearly a thing.

Am I the only one who ships Jaime and Pia? :frown5:

[protar]

Am I the only one who ships Jaime and Pia? :frown5:

Probably not the only one. But Pia and Josmynd Peckledon are already canon, and I always thought their little relationship was really sweet so in this case I'm fine with canon.