Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part II: ACoK & ASoS

[Audrey Arryn]

That was your 420th post hehehe

:lol: almost at 500

[SeanF]

A Clash of Kings

Daenerys Chapter III

The Chapter begins with Daenerys climbing into her palanquin with Xharo Xhoan Daxos. She has just returned from a meeting with the Pureborn, an oligarchy who are descended from the former royal family of Quarth, and command the city’s armed forces. They have turned down Dany’s appeal for military aid to reconquer the Iron Throne. This is despite the fact that Dany and Xaro have bribed three of them heavily, with the gifts that Dany received from visitors who wished to see her three dragons.

Dany recalls that to the Pureborn, she was no more than a curiosity. They listened, but they did not hear, nor care…………They came because they were curious. They came because they were bored, and the dragon on my shoulder interested them more than I did.”

Xharo pretends to be upset by this rejection, crying “Alas that the Qartheen should be so faithless.” He has presented himself to Dany as a friend, arranging for the great and good to give her gifts, and telling her who she should bribe among the Pureborn. Dany reflects that even now, she is still a beggar. She looks back on the time she spent with Viserys, travelling from one free city to the other, pleading for help. She concludes that the disappointment eventually drove her brother mad.

She begs Xharo to come with her to Westeros, with his ships. He replies that he is a man of peace. He makes a counter-offer, that she should marry him, claiming “ I cannot sleep at night for thinking of your beauty.” Although amused, Dany doubts his sincerity, noting that while Ser Jorah can hardly keep his eyes off her bare breast, Xharo isn’t interested. She suspects that he is more interested in the beautiful boys who live in his manse. Xharo suggests that she remain in Qarth as his wife, and if Qarth should pall, they should travel to Yi Ti. She insists on returning to Westeros. Their argument, which is light-hearted, goes back and forth, until Dany suggests that she visits the warlocks. Xharo sharply objects, claiming “They will give you nought. They have nought to give.”

The palanquin then comes to a halt, as the crowds block them in. It turns out they are watching a fire mage. Dany insists on climbing out to watch him. Dany and Jhogo notice that cutpurses are working the crowd, at the same time as they encourage them to look up at the firemage. He conjours up a ladder made of fire, climbs it, and then disappears. Jhogo calls it “A fine trick”, only for Quaithe to emerge from the crowd, and tell them it was no trick. She explains that six months previously, the firemage was incapable of performing magic. He was a con artist, who distracted the crowd with powders and wildfire, while his cutpurses stole from them. Quaithe tells Dany that she is the cause of his magic powers, by having brought dragons back into the world. She also warns her to leave Qarth, or else she will never be permitted to leave. She gives cryptic instructions, which Dany interprets as telling her to make for Asshai. Both her Dothraki and Xharo warn her against this.

Dany returns to the manse.

Ser Jorah comes to her chambers. He has discovered the reason why Xharo wishes to marry her. He says it’s because he wants a dragon. Dany replies that when they marry in Qarth, men and women retain their own property. Ser Jorah explains that is not the whole truth. Spouses may ask each other for one gift, which may not be denied. Xharo intends to ask her for a dragon.

Dany then tells him about the fire mage, and her meeting with Quaithe. Ser Jorah agrees that they should leave, but shares the general opposition to Asshai. He comments that it is far too soon for Dany to think of returning to Westeros, as she lacks any support from the great lords of the country. He expresses doubts about the loyalty of Magister Illyrio, and says that, in any event, an invasion of sellswords from the Free Cities will not win back the Iron Throne, as the inhabitants will unite against them. He warns her that she will be in danger of assassination, unless she remains on the move.

Dany thinks that the red comet must have led her to Qarth for a reason. She concludes that she must visit Pyat Pree, at the House of the Undying.

[SeanF]

Observations

Despite the claim that Qarth is “the greatest city that ever was or will be”, it appears to be past its best. The ruling caste of Pureborn is completely apathetic. Their Hall is “filled with scenes of Qarth’s vanished glory”. Following the publication of “the Lands of Ice and Fire”, we learn that inland cities formerly ruled from Qarth have been sacked by the Dothraki. We will learn that this is a common theme in the books. The great cities of the East, Volantis, Meereen, Astapor are all in decay, despite their wealth. The likelihood is that in the long run, societies based on slavery stagnate.

Dany remains a sharp-eyed observer of others. She notes that Xharo is insincere. She spots the cutpurses in the crowd.

Asshai is viewed with almost universal suspicion. Melisandre studied at Asshai, and like Quaithe, she is a shadow-binder. It is not clear exactly what shadow-binding entails, but we do see Melisandre give birth to a monstrous shadow assassin, suggesting that it is a sinister form of magic. As has been argued upthread, Dany appears to have magical powers. Perhaps Quaithe wants her to train as a shadow-binder. People with occult powers, such as the Red Priests, Quaithe, and Marwyn, all take a lot of interest in Dany.

Although Ser Jorah gives Dany good advice, it’s spoiled by his jealousy for her. Illyrio may or may not be a true friend, but Ser Jorah wants to give Dany the impression that only he can be trusted. We’ll see the same thing happen when Dany meets Arstan.

Analysis

In truth, not a great deal happens in this chapter. Dany’s frustration, after her meeting with the Pureborn, can easily be shared by the reader. Nevertheless, there are important themes here, which will continue to run through future chapters.

Magic is Coming Back into the World.

The firemage was a confidence man, until recently. Now he can actually perform magic. It is at about this time that Tyrion visits the pyromancers in Kings’ Landing, where Hallayne informs him that their spells are now working far more effectively than before. In Dany’s final chapter in A Clash of Kings, we learn that the magic of the warlocks is working again, whereas Xharo had previously dismissed them as a joke. Melisandre is a magician of a far higher order than the firemage, but even she has used trickery and powders in the past. Later, she learns that her magic is now greater than before. From Quaithe, we learn that this is because of the birth of the dragons. Magic had never completely died out in the World, after the death of the last dragons. But, it had grown substantially weaker, to the point where many inhabitants of Westeros regarded it as a myth.

The rebirth of magic was never a conscious act on Dany’s part. But, something, whether a deity, fate, or some other force, intended that she should be instrumental in bringing it back. In my view, Dany is right to see a purpose in the Red Comet leading her through the desert to Qarth. It remains to be seen whether the rebirth of magic is a good thing. After all, Dany hatched her dragons by performing a spell that involved burning a victim alive. Most of the magic-users we encounter in the books are sinister people.

Deception and Lies

A besetting problem for Dany is that most people she encounters lie to her, or at least, withhold important truths from her. Xharo is a sophist. He pretends that he is aiding her appeal to the Pureborn, when in reality, he never wants her to leave Qarth. He wants a dragon, but withholds that information from her. When we encounter him later, in A Dance with Dragons, he makes a number of superficially plausible, but completely false, arguments in favour of slavery to her. The fact that he will go to Meereen as an envoy indicates that he is an important figure in the government of Qarth. In all likelihood, he was urging the Pureborn to reject Dany’s request.

The Warlock, Pyat Pree, lies to her as well. He claims to be an ally and urges her to enter the House of the Undying, to obtain knowledge. In reality, we learn in the next chapter that the Undying want to drain Dany of life, either killing her completely, or leaving her a wraith like themselves.

Ser Jorah deceives her. We will learn that he has spying on her, in order to earn a pardon from the government of Westeros. Worse still, this spying continued even when they were in Qarth. He is conflicted, having fallen in love with Daenerys, but she has every right to be furious, when she learns of the deception. Ser Jorah has the brass neck to warn her that Illyrio is a false friend, when all along, he has been betraying her.

Quaithe is likely concealing truth from her. Although her advice to leave Qarth proves to be good, there is no reason to believe that any good would come of going to Asshai, given the suspicion that everyone has for that city.

Dany is not stupid. She is often well aware that truths are being concealed from her. Her problem is in a world of liars, establishing the truth is well-nigh impossible.

[MoIaF]

Excellent analysis Sean! :thumbsup:

A Clash of Kings

Daenerys Chapter III

Dany reflects that even now, she is still a beggar. She looks back on the time she spent with Viserys, travelling from one free city to the other, pleading for help. She concludes that the disappointment eventually drove her brother mad.

This was an important realization for Dany, she knows she must guard herself from becoming bitter by the rejection. However, she also notes:

“No, that is defeat. I have something Viserys never had. I have the dragons. The dragons are all the difference.”

Much of this is psychological. Yes, she has the dragons but at this point in time there nothing more than an ornament, a symbol.

Dany remains a sharp-eyed observer of others. She notes that Xharo is insincere. She spots the cutpurses in the crowd.

Absolutely, she is fooled by these people. However, it is exhausting to mistrust everyone and so sometimes we may trust the wrong people (see. GG).

The rebirth of magic was never a conscious act on Dany’s part. But, something, whether a deity, fate, or some other force, intended that she should be instrumental in bringing it back. In my view, Dany is right to see a purpose in the Red Comet leading her through the desert to Qarth. It remains to be seen whether the rebirth of magic is a good thing. After all, Dany hatched her dragons by performing a spell that involved burning a victim alive. Most of the magic-users we encounter in the books are sinister people.

I think the rebirth of magic is a complicated matter. As you mentioned because we don't know the ending yet we don't know what the ultimate use of magic will be. Like with any kind of power it's corrupting and I think that's why we see so many people abuse it.

However, we do get constant warning about the use of magic. Even Xaro who just really lies all the time warns Dany of them.

“Heed the wisdom of one who loves you. Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give.”

***

I thought this was a funny quote:

“Pyat Pree has blue lips, and it is truly said that blue lips speak only lies...”

Euron? Is that you?

***

When she is expressing her disappointment at the rejection of the Pureborn:

“Rhaegal hissed and dug sharp black claws into her bare shoulder as Dany stretched out a hand for the wine.”

There are other instances where her dragons are intone with her moods.

***

“I have given you this palanquin of ebony and gold, and a matched set of bullocks to bear it, one white as ivory and one black as jet, with horns inlaid with jewels.”

She will later sit in an ebony bench when ruling Meereen.

ETA

[Ragnorak]

Magic is Coming Back into the World.

The firemage was a confidence man, until recently. Now he can actually perform magic. It is at about this time that Tyrion visits the pyromancers in Kings’ Landing, where Hallayne informs him that their spells are now working far more effectively than before. In Dany’s final chapter in A Clash of Kings, we learn that the magic of the warlocks is working again, whereas Xharo had previously dismissed them as a joke. Melisandre is a magician of a far higher order than the firemage, but even she has used trickery and powders in the past. Later, she learns that her magic is now greater than before. From Quaithe, we learn that this is because of the birth of the dragons. Magic had never completely died out in the World, after the death of the last dragons. But, it had grown substantially weaker, to the point where many inhabitants of Westeros regarded it as a myth.

The rebirth of magic was never a conscious act on Dany’s part. But, something, whether a deity, fate, or some other force, intended that she should be instrumental in bringing it back. In my view, Dany is right to see a purpose in the Red Comet leading her through the desert to Qarth. It remains to be seen whether the rebirth of magic is a good thing. After all, Dany hatched her dragons by performing a spell that involved burning a victim alive. Most of the magic-users we encounter in the books are sinister people.

Nice work, Sean.

A couple of nitpicking points on magic. We don't know for certain that the dragons are causal to the return of or waxing of magic in the world. The Others seem to have awoken and the Stark children's direwolf connections predate Dany's dragon hatching. Magic seems to have been on the rise before the dragons hatched. They might be causal to fire magic or they could just be another symptom or any number of possibilities. I don't think Martin will tell us or wants there to be a clear "rule" about magic cycles unless somehow when he reveals the reason for the seasons being separate from the years that this also explains the magic cycle. The pyromancer's comment to Tyrion is definitely designed to present the dragons as causal to the reader which makes it meaningful and intentional on the author's part even if it isn't strictly accurate. In that sense it is definitely worthy of further discussion but I think we should keep in mind that it may not be the root cause of magic's rise. I actually think it becomes a more important point in Dany's story if it is false because Martin would then have taken "world building" and deliberately deceived us with it and that means he has an explicit purpose. I don't have any thoughts on why other than to create the same dilemma of sorting dragon fact from myth in the reader that Dany herself is faced with.

There seem to be two types of magic in ASOIAF: innate magic that we tend to refer to as magical blood and magic that can be learned. We're told wargs are born that way and so are greenseers and dreamers like Jojen. Other magic seems to be purely learned. The Red God's church is made up of slaves from all walks of life and they all seem to be able to perform the magic. Thoros, Mel, a Summer Islander all perform the magic and there doesn't seem to be a special blood connection or common ancestry. MMD seems to be a native of the Lamb Men and her magical ability seems to be strictly a learned thing and not anything innate to the Blood of the Lamb Men.

While I think Dany has "magical blood," I don't think Dany's hatching the dragons is enabled by that magical blood. She learned from MMD and mimicked her guided by instinct (and arguably dreams) to recreate a spell that MMD cast-- a spell that was learned and could be practiced by someone with no magical blood. Learning is even a theme in that chapter. Dany's "magical blood" connection seems to be the equivalent of Jojen's green dreams. House Targaryen has a long history of prophetic dreamers. We see that in Dunk and Egg series. We also learn that a prophetic dreamer spared House Targaryen from the Doom by having foreseen it in a dream. Aemon reveals to Sam that his family has been plagued by prophetic dreams of dragons-- even the seemingly sane ones like Aemon himself. We know Targaryens have long had prophetic dreams and we know Dany's are prophetic-- we've seen them. Dany, and our historical Targaryen examples, seem to be closer to Jojen or the Ghost of Highheart in terms of an innate magical nature but not really "spellcasters" like an MMD, a Mel, or the flame fixated pickpocket we witness here.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Given that we get a dark eye mention is this book, and Euron has a dark eye, "the seekers" is what sets Euron's eye on Dany or thats my guess

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Sean F and Ragnorak

Will he [Redwyne] fight for me as well?

Somehow, I think the answer is no, especially given the Arbor fought on the side of Aegon II in the Dance of Dragons.

Part of her would have liked nothing more than to lead her people back to Vaes Tolorro, and make the dead city bloom.

Deep inside, what Dany really wants is a peaceful, stable life. I think that is one of her great paradoxes, she wants a stable, peaceful life yet she is Stormborn, or child of storm, she brings a storm wherever she goes, intentionally and unintentionally.

poured ruby-red wine into matched goblets of jade and gold

I think the ruby-red wine can be taken as blood, and green and gold are the colors of House Tyrell. I think this may point to Dany giving the Tyrells a beating. It could also be a possible reference to fAegon, with Aegon II's party being the "greens," with plenty of support form the Reach, and the gold referring to the GC.

I have given you perfume and pomegranates, tumbling monkeys and spitting snakes, scrolls from lost Valyria, an idol's head and a serpent's foot.

Perfume and pomegranates: betrayal by the perfumed Varys and Illyrio

His uncle had taught him [Tyrion] a bit of tumbling when he was six or seven

Sage counsel, savage wit, a bit of tumbling.

Tumbling monkeys: Tyrion

All Dornishmen were snakes

Spitting snakes: Dorne

scrolls from lost Valyria: a possible trip to the ruins of Valyria on her way to Westeros? GRRM said we might see it

idol's head: ?

serpent's foot: Feet are one stands on, and foot can also refer to infantry. It could be Tyrion gets some Dornish lords in the Red Mountains to defect, likely the Yronwoods.

The Firemage

When the fiery ladder stood forty feet high, the mage leapt forward and began to climb it, scrambling up hand over hand as quick as a monkey. Each rung he touched dissolved behind him, leaving no more than a wisp of silver smoke. When he reached the top, the ladder was gone and so was he.

...

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

... "And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it"

I think the firemage can be foreshadowing for Tyrion. The monkey description is one, and Tyrion had some skill in ACoK as shown with the wildfire trap in the BoBW, and poisoning Cersei with the powder he took from Pycelle. Walking across hot coals is a test of an individual's courage and strength, and he walks across the hot coals in the BoBW and the Wo5K. He also managed to secure a deal with the Tyrells, who had lost their king to Melisandre, to come out on top again with their alliance with Lannisters and another king for Margaery to marry. The firemage had his cutpurses relieve the prosperous of their coin, and I think Tyrion relieves the the claimants who are prospering of their victory from Stannis to Aegon.

In ADwD, a fisherman catches a kraken when Victarion boards his ship. I think that means thanks to Dany, Tyrion will be climbing up the ladder, and rise up in power and influence. The wisp of silver smoke left behind could be the connection to Dany, the silver queen with her connection to fire. But as the mage reached the top he disappeared, and I think just after Tyrion reaches his height, he will later be gone from this world.

Her dragons were hungry, so she chopped up a snake and charred the pieces over a brazier

That is how Dornishmen cook their snakes. I think this doesn't bode well for Dorne with the second Dance, with Dorne likely being destroyed. I think one of the Sand Snakes or Arianne may become dragon food.

Dany nibbled at an onion and reflected ruefully on the faithlessness of men.

The Onion Knight is known for his honest counsel to Stannis, and Dany eating the onion is likely accepting honest counsel from Jorah, who gives her the truth for the most part.

"If he'd known they were like to hatch, he'd would have sat on them himself."

That just puts a funny image in my head. :laugh:

[Parwan]

Nice work, Sean.

A couple of nitpicking points on magic. We don't know for certain that the dragons are causal to the return of or waxing of magic in the world. The Others seem to have awoken and the Stark children's direwolf connections predate Dany's dragon hatching. Magic seems to have been on the rise before the dragons hatched. They might be causal to fire magic or they could just be another symptom or any number of possibilities. I don't think Martin will tell us or wants there to be a clear "rule" about magic cycles unless somehow when he reveals the reason for the seasons being separate from the years that this also explains the magic cycle. The pyromancer's comment to Tyrion is definitely designed to present the dragons as causal to the reader which makes it meaningful and intentional on the author's part even if it isn't strictly accurate. In that sense it is definitely worthy of further discussion but I think we should keep in mind that it may not be the root cause of magic's rise. I actually think it becomes a more important point in Dany's story if it is false because Martin would then have taken "world building" and deliberately deceived us with it and that means he has an explicit purpose. I don't have any thoughts on why other than to create the same dilemma of sorting dragon fact from myth in the reader that Dany herself is faced with.

...

While I think Dany has "magical blood," I don't think Dany's hatching the dragons is enabled by that magical blood. She learned from MMD and mimicked her guided by instinct (and arguably dreams) to recreate a spell that MMD cast-- a spell that was learned and could be practiced by someone with no magical blood. ...

A couple of generations ago, Ursula K. Le Guin put forth her "basic canon of fantasy." According to Ms. Le Guin, this canon is "you get to make up the rules, but then you've got to follow them." In her Earthsea novels, she presents magic as a kind of alternate science. There are principles upon which it is based. There are schools where the principles are taught. Martin's approach in ASoIaF is very different, but I don't think you can say that he is violating the basic canon. The fundamental rule seems to be that the rules are beyond human ken. Magic is powerful, dangerous, and far from fully predictable. I think the author will not only keep the reason for magic cycles hidden. He will never even make it clear that there is such a thing as a fundamental root cause, or even a set of consistent principles, behind magic. This isn't to say there is no such thing in Martin's world. But if there is, then people haven't and won't discover it.

It seems probable to me that the dragons are at least part of the cause of the waxing of magic. One possibility is that there is a series of interactions. Perhaps when the things of ice (e.g. the Others) strengthen, then the things of fire (e.g. dragons) will also do so. Ice does not have to proceed fire, but some sort of linkage will always be there. A related possibility is that of positive feedback loops. Some strengthening of magic helps to bring about a stirring in dragon eggs and dreams in a potential dragon mother. This stirring increases the power of magic in the world. The increase makes the birth of dragons more probable. The birth of the dragons increases the potency of certain types of magic. This increased potency...And so on.

I find it interesting to speculate on these matters. GRRM will almost certainly never spell things out. He has provided (intentionally, I believe) an interesting environment where readers can come up with their own "discoveries" (or possibilities, or speculations, or--lots of terms are possible here).

The process of learning itself seems vague and uncertain to me. In my opinion, Dany didn't really learn much from Mirri. She just got a single idea, a last piece of the puzzle. Also, Mirri, unlike mages, wizards, and similar persons of power in the fantasies I've read, fails to perceive anything in Dany. I don't see good evidence that a spell of any sort was cast during the pyre scene, by MMD, Daenerys, or anyone else. There are other factors in the story that lead me to believe that the business of learning magic is at best very slippery. For one thing, the maesters, knowledgeable fellows in other fields, have the business all wrong. They seem to think that they can make magic go away by denying its power or saying that it has left the world.

[Audrey Arryn]

Good job, Sean F and Ragnorak

Will he [Redwyne] fight for me as well?

Somehow, I think the answer is no, especially given the Arbor fought on the side of Aegon II in the Dance of Dragons.

Part of her would have liked nothing more than to lead her people back to Vaes Tolorro, and make the dead city bloom.

Deep inside, what Dany really wants is a peaceful, stable life. I think that is one of her great paradoxes, she wants a stable, peaceful life yet she is Stormborn, or child of storm, she brings a storm wherever she goes, intentionally and unintentionally.

poured ruby-red wine into matched goblets of jade and gold

I think the ruby-red wine can be taken as blood, and green and gold are the colors of House Tyrell. I think this may point to Dany giving the Tyrells a beating. It could also be a possible reference to fAegon, with Aegon II's party being the "greens," with plenty of support form the Reach, and the gold referring to the GC.

I have given you perfume and pomegranates, tumbling monkeys and spitting snakes, scrolls from lost Valyria, an idol's head and a serpent's foot.

Perfume and pomegranates: betrayal by the perfumed Varys and Illyrio

His uncle had taught him [Tyrion] a bit of tumbling when he was six or seven

Sage counsel, savage wit, a bit of tumbling.

Tumbling monkeys: Tyrion

All Dornishmen were snakes

Spitting snakes: Dorne

scrolls from lost Valyria: a possible trip to the ruins of Valyria on her way to Westeros? GRRM said we might see it

idol's head: ?

serpent's foot: Feet are one stands on, and foot can also refer to infantry. It could be Tyrion gets some Dornish lords in the Red Mountains to defect, likely the Yronwoods.

The Firemage

When the fiery ladder stood forty feet high, the mage leapt forward and began to climb it, scrambling up hand over hand as quick as a monkey. Each rung he touched dissolved behind him, leaving no more than a wisp of silver smoke. When he reached the top, the ladder was gone and so was he.

...

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

... "And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it"

I think the firemage can be foreshadowing for Tyrion. The monkey description is one, and Tyrion had some skill in ACoK as shown with the wildfire trap in the BoBW, and poisoning Cersei with the powder he took from Pycelle. Walking across hot coals is a test of an individual's courage and strength, and he walks across the hot coals in the BoBW and the Wo5K. He also managed to secure a deal with the Tyrells, who had lost their king to Melisandre, to come out on top again with their alliance with Lannisters and another king for Margaery to marry. The firemage had his cutpurses relieve the prosperous of their coin, and I think Tyrion relieves the the claimants who are prospering of their victory from Stannis to Aegon.

In ADwD, a fisherman catches a kraken when Victarion boards his ship. I think that means thanks to Dany, Tyrion will be climbing up the ladder, and rise up in power and influence. The wisp of silver smoke left behind could be the connection to Dany, the silver queen with her connection to fire. But as the mage reached the top he disappeared, and I think just after Tyrion reaches his height, he will later be gone from this world.

Her dragons were hungry, so she chopped up a snake and charred the pieces over a brazier

That is how Dornishmen cook their snakes. I think this doesn't bode well for Dorne with the second Dance, with Dorne likely being destroyed. I think one of the Sand Snakes or Arianne may become dragon food.

Dany nibbled at an onion and reflected ruefully on the faithlessness of men.

The Onion Knight is known for his honest counsel to Stannis, and Dany eating the onion is likely accepting honest counsel from Jorah, who gives her the truth for the most part.

"If he'd known they were like to hatch, he'd would have sat on them himself."

That just puts a funny image in my head. :laugh:

Nice catch on the snake being fed to the dragon

[Ragnorak]

A couple of generations ago, Ursula K. Le Guin put forth her "basic canon of fantasy." According to Ms. Le Guin, this canon is "you get to make up the rules, but then you've got to follow them." In her Earthsea novels, she presents magic as a kind of alternate science. There are principles upon which it is based. There are schools where the principles are taught. Martin's approach in ASoIaF is very different, but I don't think you can say that he is violating the basic canon. The fundamental rule seems to be that the rules are beyond human ken. Magic is powerful, dangerous, and far from fully predictable. I think the author will not only keep the reason for magic cycles hidden. He will never even make it clear that there is such a thing as a fundamental root cause, or even a set of consistent principles, behind magic. This isn't to say there is no such thing in Martin's world. But if there is, then people haven't and won't discover it.

It seems probable to me that the dragons are at least part of the cause of the waxing of magic. One possibility is that there is a series of interactions. Perhaps when the things of ice (e.g. the Others) strengthen, then the things of fire (e.g. dragons) will also do so. Ice does not have to proceed fire, but some sort of linkage will always be there. A related possibility is that of positive feedback loops. Some strengthening of magic helps to bring about a stirring in dragon eggs and dreams in a potential dragon mother. This stirring increases the power of magic in the world. The increase makes the birth of dragons more probable. The birth of the dragons increases the potency of certain types of magic. This increased potency...And so on.

I find it interesting to speculate on these matters. GRRM will almost certainly never spell things out. He has provided (intentionally, I believe) an interesting environment where readers can come up with their own "discoveries" (or possibilities, or speculations, or--lots of terms are possible here).

The process of learning itself seems vague and uncertain to me. In my opinion, Dany didn't really learn much from Mirri. She just got a single idea, a last piece of the puzzle. Also, Mirri, unlike mages, wizards, and similar persons of power in the fantasies I've read, fails to perceive anything in Dany. I don't see good evidence that a spell of any sort was cast during the pyre scene, by MMD, Daenerys, or anyone else. There are other factors in the story that lead me to believe that the business of learning magic is at best very slippery. For one thing, the maesters, knowledgeable fellows in other fields, have the business all wrong. They seem to think that they can make magic go away by denying its power or saying that it has left the world.

I do think Martin has a set of rules of sorts but he is also deliberately obscuring those rules to enhance the mysterious nature of magic for the reader. It fits well with unreliable narrator delivery. I wasn't trying to open the nature of magic topic so much as make a distinction that matters for how we see Dany.

If Dany is innately magical and this allows her to hatch dragons, the development is all backwards. That is a pinnacle feat and not an introduction or an awakening to one's own nature-- or her whole arc is a decline from an almost accidental highpoint that she can never hope to match regardless of how much more she learns about her own inner magical nature. If it is an act of instinctual empathetic learning that makes it more of a story about a girl with high level intuition who needs to bring her unconscious understanding of things to a more conscious level. How we view magic has an impact on how we view Dany.

Dany has a bit of a prophesy obsession and Martin gives us plenty of warnings about the nature of prophecy. It is easy to see Cersei's self-fulfilling doom in Dany's arc. Yet if we consider that Dany has a certain innate magical nature that centers on prophecy like the Stark children's warging, that makes her prophetic fixations far less Cersei-like and more in line with our uneasiness at Bran mimicking all those "abomination" behaviors. There are thematic elements tied to these magical questions that reflect on Dany's story.

It isn't so much about whether the magical rules of our World of Ice and Fire are such that dragons are causal to the return or rise of magic, but what the implications of such a thing are for the sub-story that is Dany's POV. As I toss it around in my head it seems that the causal angle makes Dany a more interesting plot device for the greater story but at a certain cost to her own personal one. I could be viewing it incorrectly too, but either way the nature of magic shades Dany's story and I suspect that it would be helpful for the discussion to express how whatever our own magical outlooks are play into Dany's character and arc.

[SeanF]

Many thanks for all your kind words. I'll need more time to respond in detail.

Fire Eater That's well-spotted about charring the snake. Having read the Arianne chapter from TWOW, I do see her as a likely antagonist to Dany, and I do think that Arianne's general lack of intelligence will lead her and the Dornish to a sticky end against Dany.

[Mithras]

In addition to Fire Eater's findings;

Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, and Victarion was the strongest of them, a bull of a man, fearless and dutiful.

Victarion’s hands closed into fists. He had beaten four men to death with those hands, and one wife as well. Though his hair was flecked with hoarfrost, he was as strong as he had ever been, with a bull’s broad chest and a boy’s flat belly.

“The plan was Euron’s, though. Victarion is like some great grey bullock, strong and tireless and dutiful, but not like to win any races.”

“You ought to have no trouble catching our uncles.” She smiled. “One is drunk on seawater, after all, and the other is a great grey bullock so dim he’ll probably get lost.”

Victarion was many times referred to as a bull. Even he thinks that way. Theon called him a bullock and Asha quoted his definition later. Now let us see Xaro’s presents to Dany.

“I have given you my home and heart, do they mean nothing to you? I have given you perfume and pomegranates, tumbling monkeys and spitting snakes, scrolls from lost Valyria, an idol’s head and a serpent’s foot. I have given you this palanquin of ebony and gold, and a matched set of bullocks to bear it, one white as ivory and one black as jet, with horns inlaid with jewels.”

“Yes,” Dany said. “But it was ships and soldiers I wanted.”

“Did I not give you an army, sweetest of women? A thousand knights, each in shining armor.”

The armor had been made of silver and gold, the knights of jade and beryl and onyx and tourmaline, of amber and opal and amethyst, each as tall as her little finger. “A thousand lovely knights,” she said, “but not the sort my enemies need fear. And my bullocks cannot carry me across the water.”

The bullock which will carry Dany across the water is Victarion. I think there are other references here too. Xaro gave a pair of bullocks to Dany and guess who will be the other bullock who will sail with Dany to Westeros?

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull’s neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester.

There is one more trait Marwyn shares with Victarion.

Some even whispered that once he [Marwyn] had killed a man with his fists.

One more thing, although this last one sounds like a stretch but Marwyn is generally called Mastiff and we have a dog race called Bullmastiff.

[Fire Eater]

Many thanks for all your kind words. I'll need more time to respond in detail.

Fire Eater That's well-spotted about charring the snake. Having read the Arianne chapter from TWOW, I do see her as a likely antagonist to Dany, and I do think that Arianne's general lack of intelligence will lead her and the Dornish to a sticky end against Dany.

Well ,when you compare Dany and Arianne, all the Arianne has, she got handed to her on a silver platter, being the heiress to Dorne, and later through marriage. Her marriage to Aegon will be how she becomes queen. Dany, OTOH, is a self-made woman. Before she hatched the dragons she had practically nothing, not a penny to her name, and only a very small khalasar made up of mostly slaves, children, women, the elderly and the lame. Through her own efforts she managed to hatch three dragons, and amass an army and power originally starting from scratch.

[Parwan]

I do think Martin has a set of rules of sorts but he is also deliberately obscuring those rules to enhance the mysterious nature of magic for the reader. It fits well with unreliable narrator delivery. I wasn't trying to open the nature of magic topic so much as make a distinction that matters for how we see Dany.

If Dany is innately magical and this allows her to hatch dragons, the development is all backwards. That is a pinnacle feat and not an introduction or an awakening to one's own nature-- or her whole arc is a decline from an almost accidental highpoint that she can never hope to match regardless of how much more she learns about her own inner magical nature. If it is an act of instinctual empathetic learning that makes it more of a story about a girl with high level intuition who needs to bring her unconscious understanding of things to a more conscious level. How we view magic has an impact on how we view Dany.

Dany has a bit of a prophesy obsession and Martin gives us plenty of warnings about the nature of prophecy. It is easy to see Cersei's self-fulfilling doom in Dany's arc. Yet if we consider that Dany has a certain innate magical nature that centers on prophecy like the Stark children's warging, that makes her prophetic fixations far less Cersei-like and more in line with our uneasiness at Bran mimicking all those "abomination" behaviors. There are thematic elements tied to these magical questions that reflect on Dany's story.

It isn't so much about whether the magical rules of our World of Ice and Fire are such that dragons are causal to the return or rise of magic, but what the implications of such a thing are for the sub-story that is Dany's POV. As I toss it around in my head it seems that the causal angle makes Dany a more interesting plot device for the greater story but at a certain cost to her own personal one. I could be viewing it incorrectly too, but either way the nature of magic shades Dany's story and I suspect that it would be helpful for the discussion to express how whatever our own magical outlooks are play into Dany's character and arc.

Starting with the bolded part—

That’s a good suggestion. I’ll try to end with issues of relevance to Dany, and thus to this thread. I need to start with a more general outlook though. Overall, things are too murky and too thoroughly fouled up for there to be a pinnacle moment for Daenerys or anyone else early in the story. I have stated a few times that, for me, a main theme in ASoIaF is “something is badly wrong here.” Maybe things have gone seriously out of kilter in Westeros, or maybe they have always been that way and have just recently started to reach a critical phase.

The story begins with three guys who are obviously in danger and going ever deeper into danger. They do not constitute a good unit. The soldiers have contempt for the leader, and he has contempt for them. More importantly, the two experienced rangers are getting very bad feelings about the situation. This is particularly true of Will, whose thoughts we read, but it seems to be true of Gared also. Things are bad; things are getting worse. Both men have feelings about what is wrong and should, in truth, be able to state what the danger is. Not only do they not say it, they don’t even want to think it. Later, we learn that the situation is almost ridiculously bad. This is only in part because the Night’s Watch has declined. The entire society is in severe danger, and in denial. There is nothing like an adequate response to a threat that is definitely existential. These people at times seem to me to be like Victorians with severe sex problems. The difficulties are there, but they can’t be mentioned, can hardly be thought about. Nobody wants to be accused of chasing grumkins and snarks. Everyone “knows” that the Others are long gone, except for some scholars who claim that those creatures never even existed. The evidence against this view is overwhelming. Craster, for example, has been making his sacrifices for many years, perhaps a couple of generations. Facts like these just do not break through, not even to the NW, certainly not to the powers that be in KL.

There are a number of reasons for this willful ignorance. According to some (e.g. Marwyn and his supporters), a large reason is political. The maesters have decided to create a new reality for the realm, a reality in which magic plays no part. A related, though separate, reason is the unpleasant nature of magic. Other reasons can be discussed later, here or on a separate thread. For now, the important facts are that the situation in general, and magic in particular, is uncertain and threatening, no one has a handle on magic, and most Westerosi don’t even want to acknowledge it.

I view Dany’s accomplishment in the pyre scene in this light. The birth of the dragons is of too uncertain a nature for me to consider it a pinnacle feat. Yes, one can see it as a great triumph. However, what do we mean by “great” in this case? In the final analysis, is it good? Could it be great without being good? The young queen has not learned the nature of magic. She is not in full control. Sometimes things appear to be beyond her control, maybe beyond anyone’s control. Later, in bad moments, she will wonder what sort of horror she has loosed upon the world. Loosing a horror upon the world can’t be a triumph, can it? Furthermore, she knows little of the important events that are taking place on the western continent, and most Westerosi are ignorant of her and her accomplishments. All of this leads to a great amount of uncertainty. It’s not even clear that dragons will be effective in the fight against the threat from the north. It seems like they should be, but we don’t know that for sure.

[SeanF]

Nice work, Sean.

A couple of nitpicking points on magic. We don't know for certain that the dragons are causal to the return of or waxing of magic in the world. The Others seem to have awoken and the Stark children's direwolf connections predate Dany's dragon hatching. Magic seems to have been on the rise before the dragons hatched. They might be causal to fire magic or they could just be another symptom or any number of possibilities. I don't think Martin will tell us or wants there to be a clear "rule" about magic cycles unless somehow when he reveals the reason for the seasons being separate from the years that this also explains the magic cycle. The pyromancer's comment to Tyrion is definitely designed to present the dragons as causal to the reader which makes it meaningful and intentional on the author's part even if it isn't strictly accurate. In

that sense it is definitely worthy of further discussion but I think we should keep in mind that it may not be the root cause of magic's rise. I actually think it becomes a more important point in Dany's story if it is false because Martin would then have taken "world building" and deliberately deceived us with it and that means he has an explicit purpose. I don't have any thoughts on why other than to create the same dilemma of sorting dragon fact from myth in the reader that Dany herself is faced with.

There seem to be two types of magic in ASOIAF: innate magic that we tend to refer to as magical blood and magic that can be learned. We're told wargs are born that way and so are greenseers and dreamers like Jojen. Other magic seems to be purely learned. The Red God's church is made up of slaves from all walks of life and they all seem to be able to perform the magic. Thoros, Mel, a Summer Islander all perform the magic and there doesn't seem to be a special blood connection or common ancestry. MMD seems to be a

native of the Lamb Men and her magical ability seems to be strictly a learned thing and not anything innate to the Blood of the Lamb Men.

While I think Dany has "magical blood," I don't think Dany's hatching the dragons is enabled by that magical blood. She learned from MMD and mimicked her guided by instinct (and arguably dreams) to recreate a spell that MMD cast-- a spell that was learned and could be practiced by someone with no magical blood. Learning is even a theme in that chapter. Dany's "magical blood" connection seems to be the equivalent of Jojen's green dreams. House Targaryen has a long history of prophetic dreamers. We see that in Dunk and Egg series. We also learn that a prophetic dreamer spared House Targaryen from the Doom by having foreseen it in a dream. Aemon reveals to Sam that his family has been plagued by prophetic dreams of

dragons-- even the seemingly sane ones like Aemon himself. We know Targaryens have long had prophetic dreams and we know Dany's are prophetic-- we've seen them. Dany, and our historical Targaryen examples, seem to be closer to Jojen or the Ghost of Highheart in terms of an innate magical nature but not really "spellcasters" like an MMD, a Mel, or the flame fixated pickpocket we witness here.

I don't think that everyone can learn magic. The Red Temples have servants who never graduate beyond being guards or temple prostitutes. Thoros was as astonished as anyone when he brought Beric back to life. The Targaryens tried all sorts of unsuccessful spells to hatch dragon eggs. I think it takes the right person, in the right place, at the right time, casting the right spell, to make it work.

[SeanF]

Starting with the bolded part—

That’s a good suggestion. I’ll try to end with issues of relevance to Dany, and thus to this thread. I need to start with a more general outlook though. Overall, things are too murky and too thoroughly fouled up for there to be a pinnacle moment for Daenerys or anyone else early in the story. I have stated a few times that, for me, a main theme in ASoIaF is “something is badly wrong here.” Maybe things have gone seriously out of kilter in Westeros, or maybe they have always been that way and have just recently started to reach a critical phase.

The story begins with three guys who are obviously in danger and going ever deeper into danger. They do not constitute a good unit. The soldiers have contempt for the leader, and he has contempt for them. More importantly, the two experienced rangers are getting very bad feelings about the situation. This is particularly true of Will, whose thoughts we read, but it seems to be true of Gared also. Things are bad; things are getting worse. Both men have feelings about what is wrong and should, in truth, be able to state what the danger is. Not only do they not say it, they don’t even want to think it. Later, we learn that the situation is almost ridiculously bad. This is only in part because the Night’s Watch has declined. The entire society is in severe danger, and in denial. There is nothing like an adequate response to a threat that is definitely existential. These people at times seem to me to be like Victorians with severe sex problems. The difficulties are there, but they can’t be mentioned, can hardly be thought about. Nobody wants to be accused of chasing

grumkins and snarks. Everyone “knows” that the Others are long gone, except for some scholars who claim that those creatures never even existed. The evidence against this view is overwhelming. Craster, for example, has been making his sacrifices for many years, perhaps a couple of generations. Facts like these just do not break through, not even to the NW, certainly not to the powers that be in KL.

There are a number of reasons for this willful ignorance. According to some (e.g. Marwyn and his supporters), a large reason is political. The maesters have decided to create a new reality for the realm, a reality in which magic plays no part. A related, though separate, reason is the unpleasant nature of magic.

Other reasons can be discussed later, here or on a separate thread. For now, the important facts are that the situation in general, and magic in particular, is uncertain and threatening, no one has a handle on magic, and most Westerosi don’t even want to acknowledge it.

I view Dany’s accomplishment in the pyre scene in this light. The birth of the dragons is of too uncertain a nature for me to consider it a pinnacle feat. Yes, one can see it as a great triumph. However, what do we mean by “great” in this case? In the final analysis, is it good? Could it be great without being good? The

young queen has not learned the nature of magic. She is not in full control. Sometimes things appear to be beyond her control, maybe beyond anyone’s control. Later, in bad moments, she will wonder what sort of horror she has loosed upon the world. Loosing a horror upon the world can’t be a triumph, can it? Furthermore, she knows little of the important events that are taking place on the western continent, and most Westerosi are ignorant of her and her accomplishments. All of this leads to a great amount of uncertainty. It’s not even clear that dragons will be effective in the fight against the threat from the north. It seems like they should be, but we don’t know that for sure.

The most powerful types of magic seem to be malevolent, in this world. The Others raise the dead, not to restore life, but to work as their slaves. Craster sacrifices his sons to them. Melisandre births shadow assassins. She and the Red Priests burn captives alive to release magical power that they can use. Dany burns Mirri alive to hatch dragons. Bran wargs into Hodor's mind.

The Maesters are right to be wary of magic, but stupid to think they can just wish it out of existence.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nice write up SeanF, I was reading last night and I can't shake the thing Quaithe told Dany;

"To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai."Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask.

What 'light' does Dany want to touch?

So Quaithe is telling her that basically all the unanswered questions floating around out there would be answered if Dany went to Asshai? The ancient Targ secrets of how they became blood of the dragon, Anything we ever wanted to know about Mel or Shiera Seastar, Why that dragon was at Vaes Tolorro, What the deal is with Marwyn, Why Marwyn trained MMD, What is the deal with the fire mages and why are they all of a sudden stronger due to Dany and her dragons.......I mean the list goes on and on.

I read some post on the forum that GRRM says Dany will never go to Asshai, does anyone know if that is true??

Can we please make her go there as it sounds like Asshai may be the source of all magic and answers on this planet?!?!?1

[Mithras]

Nice write up SeanF, I was reading last night and I can't shake the thing Quaithe told Dany;

"To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai."Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask.

What 'light' does Dany want to touch?

So Quaithe is telling her that basically all the unanswered questions floating around out there would be answered if Dany went to Asshai? The ancient Targ secrets of how they became blood of the dragon, Anything we ever wanted to know about Mel or Shiera Seastar, Why that dragon was at Vaes Tolorro, What the deal is with Marwyn, Why Marwyn trained MMD, What is the deal with the fire mages and why are they all of a sudden stronger due to Dany and her dragons.......I mean the list goes on and on.

Given the POV of Mel, I find it highly possible that Quaithe does not have any idea about half the things she said but just like Mel, she is acting as sure as hell. Just like the towers in Mel's vision were not actually Eastwatch but she pretended that way; I think the shadow she was talking about (probably saw in a vision) is probably not Asshai but she is prefering to give extremely vague answers to hid her ignorance.

[SeanF]

Nice write up SeanF, I was reading last night and I can't shake the thing Quaithe told Dany;

"To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Asshai, Dany thought. She would have me go to Asshai."Will the Asshai'i give me an army?" she demanded. "Will there be gold for me in Asshai? Will there be ships? What is there in Asshai that I will not find in Qarth?"

"Truth," said the woman in the mask.

What 'light' does Dany want to touch?

So Quaithe is telling her that basically all the unanswered questions floating around out there would be answered if Dany went to Asshai? The ancient Targ secrets of how they became blood of the dragon, Anything we ever wanted to know about Mel or Shiera Seastar, Why that dragon was at Vaes Tolorro, What the deal is with Marwyn, Why Marwyn trained MMD, What is the deal with the fire mages and why are they all of a sudden stronger due to Dany and her dragons.......I mean the list goes on and on.

I read some post on the forum that GRRM says Dany will never go to Asshai, does anyone know if that is true??

Can we please make her go there as it sounds like Asshai may be the source of all magic and answers on this planet?!?!?1

I'm pretty sure Martin has confirmed there will be no points of view set in Asshai.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm pretty sure Martin has confirmed there will be no points of view set in Asshai.

boooooooo