Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part II: ACoK & ASoS

[Audrey Arryn]

I just caught up.

I noticed the "the dragon has three heads" is a hot topic atm so I wanted to put my 2 cents.

What if the dragon is a Targaryen and the three heads are three different people.Three deaths, three lovers and three lies.

Because tbh that seems like the gist of all the prophecies, three different people playing a role in Dany (the dragon's) life.

You are misrepresenting and misconstruing my argument. Saying Jon and Dany will meet up and have roles in each other's stories is saying it all comes back to Jon?

I could argue the same with you, other posters here and Dany. Jon is my favorite character I admit, but that doesn't mean my arguments or theories don't have any merit whatsoever.

I never said it was. Just because it refers to one person as AA/PtwP, doesn't mean it disregards all the other characters.

I'm not saying Jon is all three heads, but one head. The other two heads are likely Ghost and a dragon, likely Drogon, IMO. It is like the Trinity, three aspects of the same being. The dragon is a Targaryen.

That last comment is your personal opinion. No one is more connected to kings in subtle clues than Jon. Just because Dany has actual dragons doesn't necessarily mean she will be a head. Jon's connections to House Targaryen are more subtle, and it is usually the subtle clues that point the way.

As Jon fan I dont see this prophecy having anything to do with him. Maybe we understand his arc differently I think of him as a Snow rather than a Targaryen. All of the visions have to do with Dany and Dany is the last dragon, she has dragon dreams which is a sign of her being a "dragon", GRRM said every POV is its own story I doubt I he will show Dany a vision that doesn't have anything to do with her. My understanding is that Dany is the dragon and the three heads are three different people or aspects of life. I don't even think the prophecy has anything to do with war of the others

Another thing I noticed in these visions is that there was nothing related to the others it seems more focused on Dany being a mother to thousands, I wonder if this means the others are not part of Dany's journey. I lean toward the idea that the others will be defeated without dragons.

[Parwan]

...

Regarding the Undying they say something else to Dany that I find quite curious. They tell her that they've been waiting for her for a thousand years, that's a long time.

We are not in the land of common sense.

Using anything like normal reasoning, one has to say that it is not possible for a group of people (things? entities?) to have waited for Daenerys Targaryen to arrive for a period vastly longer than she has existed. I’m not sure of the timeline here—Were the Targaryens even on Dragonstone a thousand years ago? A thousand years ago, what was the probability that Daenerys would be born? One can come up with explanations. Perhaps the Undying, or their forebears, knew of some prophecy in which someone like Dany would come to Qarth at some time like the present one. The problem is that there are innumerable possibilities, with no decent way of choosing between them. Perhaps the Undying didn’t actually know, but only presumed that the dragon queen would come. Perhaps the Undying are big fat liars. Perhaps…

Of course, this shouldn’t surprise us. Magic in Martin’s world is a powerful, confusing, unreliable thing. I take it that we all agree with SeanF’s contention that there is a good correlation between the strength of magic and the likelihood it will have ill effects. There is also the “mumbo jumbo factor.” One should be suspicious of people who cannot or will not speak clearly. Does anyone ever speak clearly about magic? Well, Maester Luwin speaks clearly to the Stark boys. Unfortunately, the maester is clearly wrong about the matter.

Examples of the mumbo jumbo factor abound. For example, did Mirri Maz Duur ever actually say that Dany is barren? I think not. It is a natural inference on most readers’ part, but an inference nevertheless. Everything originally centers around Dany’s question, “When will he be as he was?” All the witch’s blather about mountains blowing in the wind and the sun setting in the east is in reply to the queen’s question. In fact, MMD ends by saying, “Then he will return, and not before.” “Return” is not the same thing as “be as he was.” Technically, the maegi did not answer the question. Technicalities are important in this matter. The whole business is harder than trying to get Bill Clinton to give you a direct answer about his sexual behavior. It is natural to assume that all the stuff MMD talks about is impossible, therefore it will be impossible for Dany to bear a living child. Sure, it’s natural, but it’s still an assumption.

Since I’m going into technicalities, I may as well go a little further. Mirri mentions four things—seas going dry, mountains blowing in the wind, sun moving in the opposite direction, and Daenerys bearing a living child. Is it clear that all of these things have to happen before the “return”? No, but let us presume that this is the case. Can we conclude from this that all of the four things are equally improbable? Of course not. Let’s say that Dany gets pregnant and has a healthy child. The seas, however, are still wet. This means that Drogo can’t return yet. It would be legitimate to maintain that this is all the witch’s mumbo jumbo amounted to.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I myself always tend to lean more on believing that Jon is the three headed dragon. Or that it is Jon, Dany and some other third person. But I do not see Dany alone being the three headed dragon, as the last dragon being depicted as a three headed dragon, the sigil of their house doesn't lend enough literary credence to it - it is too easy a solution. The reason I partially lean towards Jany, Don and <a third person> route is because of the HotU vision we've been discussing - when Martin describes Rhaegar as looking into Daenerys' eyes telling her that a dragon must have three heads - as if telling her to look for the other two heads.

This is why i don't think it matters if Jon is the three headed dragon, i don't know whether he is but it either means Dany is one of three equals or its just the third clue to Jon's parentage in HOTU...it doesn't diminish Dany either way

[Nictarion]

GRRM said every POV is its own story I doubt I he will show Dany a vision that doesn't have anything to do with her.

I completely agree. There can be little hints and clues about other characters, but to suggest it has absolutely nothing to do with Dany personally is quite a stretch imo.

[Fire Eater]

They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening.

I think that is the nature of magic in ASOIAF. It is beautiful, but also frightening, dangerous and mysterious with no clear rules.

Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them.

To them [trees] the seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing

Another connection between BR and the Undying. The weirwoods are the Undying in this case.

The dragons do seem to share some traits with the direwolves. Drogon found the actual door leading to the Undying like Grey Wind found the goat path past the Golden Tooth leading into the Westerlands.

Last time on the subject of Jon in regards to three heads of the dragon per Maester of Ice and Fire's request

As Jon fan I dont see this prophecy having anything to do with him. Maybe we understand his arc differently I think of him as a Snow rather than a Targaryen. All of the visions have to do with Dany and Dany is the last dragon, she has dragon dreams which is a sign of her being a "dragon", GRRM said every POV is its own story I doubt I he will show Dany a vision that doesn't have anything to do with her. My understanding is that Dany is the dragon and the three heads are three different people or aspects of life. I don't even think the prophecy has anything to do with war of the others

I pray for a glimpse of AA, and R'hllor only shows me Snow.

His is the song of ice and fire.

Jon is both ice and fire not just in his parentage, but in life as well. I don't see any ice aspect in Dany. We don't see it mentioned anywhere in her arc after the HotU.

Dany clearly isn't the last dragon if Rhaegar is Jon's legitimate father. Jon's has connection to dragons as well throughout his POV. The stone dragon likely points to a hidden Targaryen. I think the three heads as three people is a red herring. Who says the other two heads can't be animals?

The prophecy does have something to do with the Others as clearly stated by Mel and Aemon.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I agree and Dany gets a lot of flak from many readers, but the poor girl has the weight of an entire dynasty on her shoulders. She is constantly under the pressure of her Targaryen legacy, birthright and responsibility as the last remaining true Targaryen heir (even if we take Aegon as the real thing and not a pretender, Dany's not aware of his presence yet).

The vision of the RW she witnesses at the HotU always nags at me whenever I come across it. How does it pertain to Dany? Is it just a plot device used to foreshadow the actual event? If so, it seems rather unnecessary to be included within a vision the HotU decides to show her.

Welcome to the reread :cheers:

I agree, I never understand when people say Dany is power hungry or "she just wants the throne"

Its way more complex than that, Dany doesn't want the throne as 1 dimensional as people think, its more of a duty she is forcing herself to do, after Viserys promised her ,her whole life that he would take them home he died and after that Dany started feeling the pressure to do what he wanted to. She also feels pressured by characters like Jorah, Barristan etc that are all relying on her to take them "home" but deep down I don't think thats what Dany wants as she even called westeros a "fabled" land and her wishes to live as a khaleesi, stay in Vaes tolorro and finally Meereen are telling, she just wants the house with the red door but is in conflict with living up to her house name and fulfilling the promise her brother made to her all life.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Giving the magic nature of the dragon I would say the bond is a bit more complex than that of a pet and it's owner. There is a psychic connection that we see in Dany's dreams and later in Drogon's appearance at the pit at a time when Dany needed him the most (without knowing it).

Yes we have discussed this several times, and I think it is a point overlooked so much. IMO Dany's bond with Drogon is almost exactly the same as the Stark childrens bond with their direwolves. Of course they are wargs and she is not. However she almost is, she cannot see out of Drogons eyes like they can, but he feels her moods, gets angry when she does, can feel her desperation or pain from miles away. He is her strength, actually he reminds me a lot of the daemons from Phillip Pullmans Dark Materials trilogy.

When she is in the HOTU, she would not have survived without Drogon (it's actually funny to me that Pyat Pree let her bring him in at all). When she is under their spell in the final room, Drogon is the one who snaps her out of it and saves her. How did he know to go and start chewing on that blue floating heart? Dany wasn't even thinking that the heart was the Undying's weakness or anything. Drogon just figured it out on his own. Very smart dragon she has there. Then after she gets free Drogon lites the Undying up with some serious fire and they all are burning as Dany 'bulls' through them knocking them down as she runs free of the room filled with fire. When Drogon comes through it behind her he is flying through a wall of fire to get free. Here we have another example of Dany's 'higher heat tolerance'. IMO there is something about Drogons fire that does not seem to harm her very much. IMO their bond is so close that he simply does not really hurt her with his fire. Its the same thing in the pit in DwD, she gets 'engulfed in a furnace wind' but it does not burn her skin at all. Then minutes later we see her getting burned and blistered by the hot metal spear. I think this is GRRM showing us that she is not immune to fire/heat in all forms, but that she can withstand the fire/heat created by Drogon.

In the HOTU the room is completely on fire, the Undying are burning all around her, and she has to push through them to get out, meaning she literally runs into people who are on fire, but it does not burn her or bother her at all. She does not mention once being hot or uncomfortable in the room full of fire. And I wanted to check so I turned back a few chapters in the book to the one where Arya is saving Jaqen from the barn on fire. Arya is in a room that's full of fire, everything is burning, and in her POV it is mentioned several times how hot the barn is and how she is choking and scared, and how she loves the taste of the wed mud when she gets out. Comparatively Dany feels none of these things when she in a room full of Dragon fire, and when she gets out of THOTU she does not gasp for breath or need cool water/mud to make her lungs/throat feel better. She just simply handled the heat a lot better than Arya did.

This is just something I have been thinking about and wanted to bring up as an important point in the chapter.

[Parwan]

Welcome!!!!!!

Not too late at all, happy to have you and hear your thoughts.

As for the little girl, I think it was just GRRM writing it that way. The Red Door is highly associated with Dany, it's what she considers home. in fact in the prophetic dream she had in Dany IX in AGOT it was that Red Door which she was running towards. She is always running towards home.

It's funny because Dany see at least three vision of either, the house with the red door, the lemon tree or Ser Darry throughout HOTU.

I rather like the idea that the girl is Arya. Both she and Dany are now involved in "freeing" people in one sense or another. Both have a connection with Braavos. In both cases, there are problems with freedom. It's not clear that this interpretation would ever be confirmed. Even if the two young women later work together, that wouldn't prove anything about the vision. But I guess you could say that this is just part of the uncertainty of the whole business. Magic, prophesy, visions--they aren't reliable.

...

Then after she gets free Drogon lites the Undying up with some serious fire and they all are burning as Dany 'bulls' through them knocking them down as she runs free of the room filled with fire. When Drogon comes through it behind her he is flying through a wall of fire to get free. Here we have another example of Dany's 'higher heat tolerance'. IMO there is something about Drogons fire that does not seem to harm her very much. IMO their bond is so close that he simply does not really hurt her with his fire. Its the same thing in the pit in DwD, she gets 'engulfed in a furnace wind' but it does not burn her skin at all. Then minutes later we see her getting burned and blistered by the hot metal spear. I think this is GRRM showing us that she is not immune to fire/heat in all forms, but that she can withstand the fire/heat created by Drogon.

In the HOTU the room is completely on fire, the Undying are burning all around her, and she has to push through them to get out, meaning she literally runs into people who are on fire, but it does not burn her or bother her at all. She does not mention once being hot or uncomfortable in the room full of fire. And I wanted to check so I turned back a few chapters in the book to the one where Arya is saving Jaqen from the barn on fire. Arya is in a room that's full of fire, everything is burning, and in her POV it is mentioned several times how hot the barn is and how she is choking and scared, and how she loves the taste of the wed mud when she gets out. Comparatively Dany feels none of these things when she in a room full of Dragon fire, and when she gets out of THOTU she does not gasp for breath or need cool water/mud to make her lungs/throat feel better. She just simply handled the heat a lot better than Arya did.

This is just something I have been thinking about and wanted to bring up as an important point in the chapter.

Congratulations. You have injected new life into an issue that I thought moribund. At least you have done this for me. Perhaps someone else has noticed the importance of the burning Undying to the whole Dany/Targ/Fire Resistance thing. If so, I have not read their posts. I never considered the fact that Dany came into contact with the specters while they were burning. They didn't have much substance, but so what? Hydrogen doesn't have much substance, but it will burn hot as hell. I'll have to consider the matter some more. At the least, it further indicates the strength of the bond between the queen and Drogon, and it drives yet another nail into the coffin of the belief that there is nothing magical about Dany.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hi Everyone!!

I started this thread in the show section to discuss popular book theories that are backed up or supported by the show. So that we dont have to speak in spoilers on the general book forum. Please let's all talk there :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107636-book-spoilers-rlj-and-other-theories-on-hbo/

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I rather like the idea that the girl is Arya. Both she and Dany are now involved in "freeing" people in one sense or another. Both have a connection with Braavos. In both cases, there are problems with freedom. It's not clear that this interpretation would ever be confirmed. Even if the two young women later work together, that wouldn't prove anything about the vision. But I guess you could say that this is just part of the uncertainty of the whole business. Magic, prophesy, visions--they aren't reliable.

Congratulations. You have injected new life into an issue that I thought moribund. At least you have done this for me. Perhaps someone else has noticed the importance of the burning Undying to the whole Dany/Targ/Fire Resistance thing. If so, I have not read their posts. I never considered the fact that Dany came into contact with the specters while they were burning. They didn't have much substance, but so what? Hydrogen doesn't have much substance, but it will burn hot as hell. I'll have to consider the matter some more. At the least, it further indicates the strength of the bond between the queen and Drogon, and it drives yet another nail into the coffin of the belief that there is nothing magical about Dany.

Well Thanks Parwan. You are right they did not have much substance, but they were on fire nonetheless and she had to physically touch and push them to get through, and it was not just them, the entire room was on fire, as when Drogon flew out, it was through a wall of fire. Which is why I wanted to compare it to another similar situation to see if GRRM did actually give the POV thoughts and feelings about how hot the characters were around fire, which he did several times with Arya, and her chapter was not far in the book from Dany's. So I think it is done on purpose, giving Arya problems with heat and fire, yet Dany has none.

[MoIaF]

Public Service Announcement

Suzanne Stormborn will be posting the analysis for Daenerys V ACoK later this week.

Now back to our regularly schedule discussion.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hi everyone, so sorry this took so long. I have been hella busy. but here we go

Dany Final Chapter CoK

This is the final Dany chapter in Clash of Kings. It begins with Dany still at XXD’s house and she is getting dressed to go to the docks to look for passage to Westeros. She tells Irri she does not want to wear the ‘airy’ girly dress, that ‘the docks are no place for ladys finery’.

She decides to dress in the Dothraki fashion since the Milk Men already think her a savage. She also puts a bell at the end of her braid although she specifically points out to Irri that ‘I have won no victories’. Irri replies ‘ You burned the maegi in their house of dust and sent their souls to hell.’ Dany thinks ‘That was Drogon’s victory not mine.’ And that ‘the Dothraki would esteem her all the more for a few bells in her hair.’ (1)

As she goes through the poorer past of Qarth to get to the docks, she notices people staring at her and thinks ‘They know who I am and they do not love me.’

She is heading to the docks to ‘flee again. Her whole life had been one long flight, it seemed. She had begun running in her mother’s womb and never once stopped. How often had her and Viserys stolen away in the black of night, a bare step ahead of the Usurper’s hired knives? But it was run or die. Xaro had learned that Pyat Pree was gathering the surviving warlocks together to work ill on her.’ (2)

Xaro says that he is no longer certain that the warlocks are as weak as he originally thought, that the ‘glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between windowless houses and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails.’ (3)

Basically he wants her to leave, before when he wanted her to stay he talked down about all these people in Qarth, like he was better than all of them. But now that she has disrupted business in Qarth he is ready to send her away and all his opinions have changed to support what he wants at that moment. He asks her to marry him and bear his children one last time, she refuses as she is certain that what he really wants is a dragon, not her hand or her children. She reflects that it is time to go anyway, that she has lingered to long, her Dothraki are restless and unruly and Qarth has turned on her since she brought down the palace of Dust. The Qartheen now remember dragons are dangerous, the Tourmaline Brotherhood called for her Expulsion and the Ancient Guild of spicers demanded her death. She decides to leave but has no idea where to go. She contemplates returning to Vaes Tolorro to let her dragons grow. (4)

Dany realizes she must leave by sea, she asks Xaro for a ship (this is my favorite conversation in the books), He says he will give her 10 ships for a dragon. She says no, he offers her 20, she says she wont even do it for 100. He says give me 1 dragon for 30 ships. She asks how many ships does he have total? 83 is his answer.

“And your Colleagues in the Thirteen?’

“Among us all, perhaps a thousand.’

“And the Spicers and the Tourmaline Brotherhood?’

“Twelve or thirteen hundred for the Spicers. No more than eight hundred for the Brotherhood.”

“And the Asshai’I, the Braavosi, the Summer Islanders, The Ibbenese, and all the other people who sail the great salt sea, how many ships do they have? All together?’

“Many and more, ‘ he said irritably ‘What does this matter?’

“I am trying to set a price on one of the three living dragons in the world,” Dany smiled at him sweetly. ‘It seems to me that one-third of all the Ships in the world would be fair.”

XXD starts to cry ‘Did I not warm you not to enter the PoD? This is the very thing I feared. The whispers of the warlocks have made you as mad as Mallarwan’s wife. A third of all the ships in the world? Pah. Pah. I say. Pah.”

Then He kicks her out of his house and wants all his gifts back. (5)

She thinks MMD must have been the blood betrayal, and wonders is Pyat Pree and XXD could be the 2^nd and 3^rd betrayals (for gold and love), but decides no they are not.

Who are the three heads she wants to know and asks Jorah. HE says the 3 heads were Aegon and his sisters. She says she is descendant from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and his son Jaehaerys. Jorah questions why she even cares what the undying said to her, that is was basically all BS. She says that the visions she saw meant something……Jorah replies ‘ A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood… what does any of it mean Khaleesi? A mummer’s dragon you said. What is a mummer’s dragon pray?’ She answers ‘A cloth dragon on poles’. (6)

Dany could not let the visions go. ‘His is the song of ice and fire, my brother Rhaegar said. He had a harp with silver strings.”

Jorah agrees Rhaegar did play such a harp. She says she saw him with ‘ a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and said to name him Aegon.’ Jorah says if Aegon was TPTWP then the promise was broken along with his skull by the Lannisters. Dany says ‘she remembers that they killed him and his sister Rhaenys, that there were only 2 children, not three, but they said the dragon has three heads. What is the song of ice and fire?’

“It’s no song I have ever heard.’ (7)

She is flustered because she went to the Warlocks for answers but all she got were more questions.

Qarth is one of the worlds greatest ports, people from all over selling things from all over. Dany sees someone selling dragons eggs ‘which look suspiciously like painted rocks.’

The boats Dany notes as she walks by; Vermillion Kiss, Bride in Azure, Sunblaze, Silken Spirit, Lord Faro’s Belly, Quicksilver, Grey hound, Pinchbottom Petto, Sloe-Eyed Maid, Magister Manolo. She dismounts and leaves the Dothraki with the horses to walk through the piers with Jorah. ‘Sailors, dockworkers, and merchants alike gave way before her, not knowing what to make of this slim young girl with silver-gold hair who dressed in the dothraki fashion and walked with a knight at her side.” But still no one would help her. The captain of the Ardent Friend laughs at her when she asks for passage for her dothraki, their horses and 3 dragons. After many turn-downs from many captains, Jorah tells her she is being followed, he shows her a fat brown man and an older man with a staff. She is wary of them, she knows ‘the usurper offered a lordship to the man who kills me and these two are far from home. ‘

They are following her and making her and Jorah nervous, the a Qartheen steps in her path and offers her a jewel box and says it is for the mother of dragons. She takes it and is thinking about how the box will help them buy a ship, but then it opens with a hiss, Inside is a terrible scorpion monster whose tail is dripping with venom. The old man with the staff knocks it out of her hand just in time, then smashes the scorpion with the butt of his staff. She calms everyone down and realizes they were there to save her, she says ‘It was the Qartheen, He was a Sorrowful Man. There was a manticore in that jewel box he gave me. This man knocked it out of my hand.”

She asks the stranger who she owes her life to? He says ‘ You owe me nothing, I am called Arstan, though Belwas named me Whitebeard on the voyage here.” She also meets Strong Belwas from the fighting pits. When she asks why they are there he says ‘ Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair. He it was who sent Strong Belwas back across the sea and Old Whitebeard to serve him.’ Of course he means Illyrio sent him. Whitebeard knows Ser Jorah.

Dany wants to know what Illyrio wants with her, Belwas says he wants Dragons, and he wants you. (8)

Whitebeard tell her that Westeros needs her, Robert is dead and the realm bleeds. Then they tell her Illyrio has sent 3 ships for her, to take her back to Westeros. She takes it as a good sign that there are 3 ships as there are 3 heads of the dragon, She renames the ships Vhagar, Meraxes and Balerion after Aegon’s dragons. She says ‘I want every man who sees them to know the dragons have returned.’

1. She cares more about how the Dothraki sees her than anyone else. They are her people, and she would rather be true to them and make them feel comfortable than try to impress some random rich Qartheen strangers.

2. Another example of how paranoid and delusional Viserys was. Maybe their lives wouldnt have been so bad if he would have just realized that in fact no one was chasing them.

3. Does anyone know what these cryptic messages are suppossed to mean? Or do you think XXD is just trying to scare her and freak her out?

4. XXD is a greedy asshole. He only tells her things that benefit him, When she first got there he if filling her ear with how great Qarth is and how she can have anything she wants, and they can basically rule the world together, but now that she has leveled the Palace of Dust and refuses to marry him he is telling her it's not safe, she can't stay and he wants all his presents back. The dragons are like the ring of power in LOTR's, people see them covet them and go a little nuts wanting to posses them, but they are also scared. I think this happens in Qarth because the dragons are still pretty small and most people dont realize that they are cute now, but will be giant fire monsters in a few years. Also another reference to dragons in Vaes Tolorro!!! What does it mean?? What is the deal with this place?

5. This is the first time we have seen her try to put a price on one of her dragons. I just love it!! XXD acts like she is talking crazy, but really he is just upset and bitter. he knows a dragon is worth more than 20 or 30 ships, but since he is not getting his way he calls Dany crazy. Typical rich guy who is used to getting everything he wants.

6. Who is the mummer's dragon if it is not Aegon? We see from the prophecies that there is definitely a 'mummer's dragon' out there somewhere, so who else in the entire SOIAF fits into this role besides Aegon? I personally just really dont get how people think Aegon is real. This vision ensures that there is a fake dragon out there, we just dont know who he is yet. Which is why it is so obvious that Aegon is fake, as I have not seen any other candidates to be the mummer's dragon.

7. This is the first time anyone has mentioned the 'song of ice and fire' in the novels. I thought it was worth mentioning, and it's interesting that Jorah thought it was an actual song,I guess because Rhaegear played a harp.

8. Belwas says 'Illyrio wants dragons' first, that is the first and most important thing Illyrio wants. He doesnt care about Dany or Viserys, all he wants are those dragons to make his son Aegon legit. He wants to use the dragons to play the game of thrones more than anything. Dany is not important to him at this point. But he knows he cannot have the dragons without her, which is why, IMO he sends Barristan. He knew Barristan would soothe and comfort her and make her feel safe. Belwas alone probably could not have accomplished this.

[MoIaF]

Hi everyone, so sorry this took so long. I have been hella busy. but here we go

Dany Final Chapter CoK

snip

Great analysis, thank you! :thumbsup:

1. She cares more about how the Dothraki sees her than anyone else. They are her people, and she would rather be true to them and make them feel comfortable than try to impress some random rich Qartheen strangers.

She also decides not to ride in a palanquin anymore, after the events at the HOTU there was no need in trying to please the Qartheen. She wasn't going to get anything from them.

2. Another example of how paranoid and delusional Viserys was. Maybe their lives wouldnt have been so bad if he would have just realized that in fact no one was chasing them.

This just goes to show what an unstable life Dany had. That is no way to grow up, whether she believed that the hire swords were after them or not (she questions it in AGOT) the constant moving from one place to another must play havoc in the psychological being of a child.

6. Who is the mummer's dragon if it is not Aegon? We see from the prophecies that there is definitely a 'mummer's dragon' out there somewhere, so who else in the entire SOIAF fits into this role besides Aegon? I personally just really dont get how people think Aegon is real. This vision ensures that there is a fake dragon out there, we just dont know who he is yet. Which is why it is so obvious that Aegon is fake, as I have not seen any other candidates to be the mummer's dragon.

Whether or not Argons is fake (I believe he is) he is still a "mummer's dragon" a pawn of both Illyrio and Varys. I like the description Dany gave Ser Jorah of what the murmmer's dragon is:

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.” and we have a good idea Dany will be fighting him. ;)

7. This is the first time anyone has mentioned the 'song of ice and fire' in the novels. I thought it was worth mentioning, and it's interesting that Jorah thought it was an actual song,I guess because Rhaegear played a harp.

We hear this in the HOTU from Rhaegar but we also hear it from the Undying in a way, when they tell Dany "drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire..." The Song is a balance between these two opposite forces, which is probably what the series is about amongst other things.

Other Notes:

It felt really sad when Dany says to Ser Jorah:

“A knight of my Queensguard.” Dany took his arm. “And my true friend and good counselor .”

In AGOT we find out that Dany has never really had any friends, she finally thinks that she has found one in Ser Jorah only to realize later he had betrayed her.

I thought it was really interesting how astute Dany was about the price of the brass plate, she knew what it really cost and how to haggle for it. Perhaps some of the things she learned from being on the run and begging weren't too bad. :)

[Parwan]

Good job, Suzanna. Some observations:

1. Never trust a man who says "Pah."

2. Dany is definitely a sharp negotiator in this chapter. For some reason or other, her ability in this area goes completely away when she gets to Meereen. I'll have more to say about this when we are discussing ADwD.

3. Dany is often criticized for not knowing enough and not trying to learn more about Westeros. I think this criticism is partly fair. She could have done more to reach out to some of the houses of the Seven Kingdoms, or at least acquire some full-time agents who would feed her information about events there.

The principle works both ways though. Why are the Westerosi lords so ignorant of her and her activities? By now, half of the damn world has come to Qarth to see the young queen and her dragons. Yet in places like King's Landing, High Garden, and Oldtown, almost everyone is clueless. In the prologue of AFfC, we will learn that only one of the archmaesters of the Citadel has an adequate grasp of what's happening in the east.

It appears that Illyrio Mopatis has more intelligence than all the high lords of the western continent. He makes a good move early in the game, sending a competent but rather low-level group to bring the queen back to Pentos. The supposedly intelligent leader of Dorne waits a lot longer. Then he sends a much higher-ranking but less able group out to Daenerys on a rather silly wild dragon chase. This involves a document that doesn't really apply to her. The group doesn't get to her until it's too late. In truth, they are rather lucky to get to her at all. The Dornish should have been in direct contact with Daenerys Targaryen much earlier.

[SeanF]

The principle works both ways though. Why are the Westerosi lords so ignorant of her and her activities? By now, half of the damn world has come to Qarth to see the young queen and her dragons. Yet in places like King's Landing, High Garden, and Oldtown, almost everyone is clueless. In the prologue of AFfC, we will learn that only one of the archmaesters of the Citadel has an adequate grasp of what's happening in the east.

It appears that Illyrio Mopatis has more intelligence than all the high lords of the western continent. He makes a good move early in the game, sending a competent

but rather low-level group to bring the queen back to Pentos. The supposedly intelligent leader of Dorne waits a lot longer. Then he sends a much higher-ranking but less able group out to Daenerys on a rather silly wild dragon chase. This involves a document that doesn't really apply to her. The group doesn't get to her until it's too late. In truth, they are rather lucky to get to her at all. The Dornish should have been in direct contact with Daenerys Targaryen much earlier.

I think it's down to poor communications. Kings Landing to Slavers Bay is 4,000 miles. Qarth is even further. The king of England c.1350 would be pretty well-informed about France, the Low Countries, Germany, Spain, Northern Italy. But, knowledge of events in Persia or India would be much hazier, with all kinds of fantastic tales mixed in with hard facts.

I think the majority of Maesters are deliberately shutting their ears to unwelcome facts.

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Suzanne Stormborn

I think we should note that Aegon is brought up almost immediately after Dany talks of the vision of the mummer's dragon.

“A cloth dragon on poles,” Dany explained. “Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight.” and we have a good idea Dany will be fighting him. ;)

And Tyrion fighting him as well.

even dragon's eggs which looked suspiciously like painted rocks

I think we can all recall the hidden Targaryen, Egg, and the egg hatching at Whitewalls. Aegon is supposedly a Targaryen in hiding like Egg, even having the same name, but like the painted rocks, this Egg is fake.

the Sunblaze had just arrived from Astapor on Slaver's Bay

A possible hint to where Dany is headed next?

She dismounted beside a gaming pit where a basilisk was tearing a big red dog to pieces amidst a shouting ring of sailors.

and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash

The closest I got is that Gerion Lannister is likely the corsair king from the Basilisk Isles mentioned in AFfC. I think we will see him in TWoW, and Tyrion would have Dany name him her Master of Ships. I think Gerion will be leading Dany's Fleet against Redwyne's, who would be supporting Aegon in the second Dance, with Gerion winning.

The blood of the dragon would not be herded through the bazaar by an old man and a fat eunuch.

I think this points to Dany not being herded by the old man and the fat eunuch, Illyrio and Varys, into their own schemes. Since AGoT, her actions have resulted in their original plans going south.

[A wilding]

The principle works both ways though. Why are the Westerosi lords so ignorant of her and her activities? By now, half of the damn world has come to Qarth to see the young queen and her dragons. Yet in places like King's Landing, High Garden, and Oldtown, almost everyone is clueless. In the prologue of AFfC, we will learn that only one of the archmaesters of the Citadel has an adequate grasp of what's happening in the east.

Varys probably has something to do with it. In ASoS he reports Dany's presence in Qarth with dragons to the Small Council in such a way as to ensure it will be ignored as a wild rumour.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Good job, Suzanne Stormborn

I think we should note that Aegon is brought up almost immediately after Dany talks of the vision of the mummer's dragon.

And Tyrion fighting him as well.

even dragon's eggs which looked suspiciously like painted rocks

I think we can all recall the hidden Targaryen, Egg, and the egg hatching at Whitewalls. Aegon is supposedly a Targaryen in hiding like Egg, even having the same name, but like the painted rocks, this Egg is fake.

the Sunblaze had just arrived from Astapor on Slaver's Bay

A possible hint to where Dany is headed next?

She dismounted beside a gaming pit where a basilisk was tearing a big red dog to pieces amidst a shouting ring of sailors.

and wait for the bitch queen in King's Landing to let Lord Paxter off his leash

The closest I got is that Gerion Lannister is likely the corsair king from the Baislisk Isles mentioned in AFfC. I think we will see him in TWoW, and Tyrion would have Dany name him her Master of Ships. I think Gerion will be leading Dany's Fleet against Redwyne's, who would supporting Aegon in the second Dance, with Gerion winning.

I completely agree about Gerion Lannister. Him and Jaime seem to be the only Lannisters Tyrion is fond of. I wouldnt be surprised at all if he shows up soon (with or without Brightroar), and chooses to side with Dany. From Tyrions description he seems like a much nicer guy than come members of his family, he obviously did not have a problem with Tyrion being a dwarf, and it even sounded a little like he was ok with Tywin being embarrassed of Tyrion. If he is the corsair king do we know how many ships are in his fleet? I can't remember if there is much detail about it at all??

[Parwan]

I think it's down to poor communications. Kings Landing to Slavers Bay is 4,000 miles. Qarth is even further. The king of England c.1350 would be pretty well-informed about France, the Low Countries, Germany, Spain, Northern Italy. But, knowledge of events in Persia or India would be much hazier, with all kinds of fantastic tales mixed in with hard facts.

I think the majority of Maesters are deliberately shutting their ears to unwelcome facts.

I agree about the maesters. This relates to some comments I'll make about Marwyn in a later post.

I'm sure your basic facts about distances, communication, and the low level of technology in the 14th century are correct. This brings up some relevant points about Varys, Illyrio, and others.

Varys probably has something to do with it. In ASoS he reports Dany's presence in Qarth with dragons to the Small Council in such a way as to ensure it will be ignored as a wild rumour.

Here we encounter some things about the poor governance of the Seven Kingdoms, the superior abilities of a couple of major plotters, and the fact that ASoIaF is a fantasy.

The ability of the Spider to fine tune, almost micromanage things half a world away strains credulity, doesn't it? It is one thing to believe that he, an incredible traitor as well as a man despised and suspected, has been able to hoodwink the king and various advisers for the better part of a generation. It is another to believe in his super spying and communication network. SeanF comments about the low level of knowledge c.1350 England would have had about Persia and India. Can you imagine that some councilor to the English king would be able to manage a plot to assassinate the wife of an important Central Asian tribal chieftain? Would such an adviser consider the possibility of attempting such a thing? How could he presume to have even a decent communication link with his main agent in Central Asia? Like I said--ASoIaF is a fantasy.

Within the context of the story, it is legitimate to compare Illyrio with the Westerosi lords, as i have done above. His place is far away from Qarth. Dany's activities are important for him and for the lords. In this area, he does things well; they do things poorly. I would not trust the cheesemonger if he claimed that he was my friend and always would support me. However, I say that he is an intelligent fellow who gets his facts straight. On matters of fact, he can usually be trusted. This is important to us in a number of ways. One example which goes back to an earlier issue we discussed: The man claimed that the dragon eggs came from the Shadow Lands. I believe that the dragon eggs came from the Shadow Lands. Dany brought forth dragons from fossils. She may be the only one who has ever done such a thing.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I agree about the maesters. This relates to some comments I'll make about Marwyn in a later post.

I'm sure your basic facts about distances, communication, and the low level of technology in the 14th century are correct. This brings up some relevant points about Varys, Illyrio, and others.

Here we encounter some things about the poor governance of the Seven Kingdoms, the superior abilities of a couple of major plotters, and the fact that ASoIaF is a fantasy.

The ability of the Spider to fine tune, almost micromanage things half a world away strains credulity, doesn't it? It is one thing to believe that he, an incredible traitor as well as a man despised and suspected, has been able to hoodwink the king and various advisers for the better part of a generation. It is another to believe in his super spying and communication network. SeanF comments about the low level of knowledge c.1350 England would have had about Persia and India. Can you imagine that some councilor to the English king would be able to manage a plot to assassinate the wife of an important Central Asian tribal chieftain? Would such an adviser consider the possibility of attempting such a thing? How could he presume to have even a decent communication link with his main agent in Central Asia? Like I said--ASoIaF is a fantasy.

Within the context of the story, it is legitimate to compare Illyrio with the Westerosi lords, as i have done above. His place is far away from Qarth. Dany's activities are important for him and for the lords. In this area, he does things well; they do things poorly. I would not trust the cheesemonger if he claimed that he was my friend and always would support me. However, I say that he is an intelligent fellow who gets his facts straight. On matters of fact, he can usually be trusted. This is important to us in a number of ways. One example which goes back to an earlier issue we discussed: The man claimed that the dragon eggs came from the Shadow Lands. I believe that the dragon eggs came from the Shadow Lands. Dany brought forth dragons from fossils. She may be the only one who has ever done such a thing.

Yes I am starting to realize that Illyrio is not a big liar. I thought maybe when he said that serra died of the plague that he was lying, but then it was backed up in the WOIAF app, so he was proven right there. At the point when the eggs are questioned it is at Dany and Drogo's wedding, long before anyone knew they would hatch, so there is really no reason at all to lie about where they came from at that point in the story anyway.

I agree it is totally freaking incredible that not only did she hatch eggs, but that she hatched ancient fossilized eggs. I think this extraordinary feat is often overlooked or chalked up to MMD"s magic or whatever.....I could not disagree more. And Dany knew they would hatch, she felt life and warmth and even dream-bonded with ancient fossilized eggs, same as if someone went into the natural history museum, put their hands on a fossil and felt life within it. It is magic, Dany has magic within her. A magic that has all but died out in the past 100 years. She is the re-birth of her once great family and the rebirth of the Valyrian Dragonlord ancestors she descends from, as she raised 3 dragons alone with no horns, no sorcery and no guidance, just like the very first Valyrians who found the dragons in the volcano to begin with 5000+ years ago.