Universal Sword Donor Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I would argue it was more Brandon and Roberts fault for hotheadingly overreacting, and Aerys's fault for turning what could have to handled as a minor squabble among young lordling into treason and burning people alive. I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but calling her one of the "10 worst people" for being an imperious young person in a series that has Ramsey Bolton, the Bitter, and Randyll "Rape Apologist" Tarly is a bit much. How did Robert overreact? AFAIK Robert didn't do anything until Aerys called for his head and Jon raised his banners. AWOIAF seems to confirm that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I believe that Rhaegar hed his own special kind of the infamous Targ madness and he was obssessed with the 3headed dragon prophecy so she was a tool to help him. On the other hand I believe that Lyanna was infatuated with him. My problem with Lyanna is that if she went willingly or not because if she did she is single handingly one of the Top10 worst persons in the series. thanks for the laugh I would argue it was more Brandon and Roberts fault for hotheadingly overreacting, and Aerys's fault for turning what could have to handled as a minor squabble among young lordling into treason and burning people alive. I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but calling her one of the "10 worst people" for being an imperious young person in a series that has Ramsey Bolton, the Bitter, and Randyll "Rape Apologist" Tarly is a bit much. How did Robert overreact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 You have too high an opinion of the human race. Well, I was being mostly sarcastic with the Love and First Sight thing. ASMOF I don't believe in it myself. But yeah, I don't think running off with a boy even makes in into the top 100 of the "List of Horrible Things People Have Done" in this series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert the Great Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I think liked him at first mainly because he was a suitor who provided adventure. I really don't believe it was love at first, maybe after chilling for months together it matured to love. But at first it was probably just harmless fun mixed in with a bit of rebelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I would argue it was more Brandon and Roberts fault for hotheadingly overreacting, and Aerys's fault for turning what could have to handled as a minor squabble among young lordling into treason and burning people alive. How is Robert's fault? Someone could say that Brandon overeactive but who wouldn't spend his time daydreaming when his sister was tortured and raped from all he knew? I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but calling her one of the "10 worst people" for being an imperious young person in a series that has Ramsey Bolton, the Bitter, and Randyll "Rape Apologist" Tarly is a bit much. If she went willingly she helped to creat a war. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 thanks for the laugh You are welcome. For me if she went willingly is up there with Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 If she went willingly she helped to creat a war. Simple as that. My dear friend, if you think for a second that Lyanna created RR, then you truly missed quite the few details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 My dear friend, if you think for a second that Lyanna created RR, then you truly missed quite the few details... "Robert overreacted". /yes, kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 My dear friend, if you think for a second that Lyanna created RR, then you truly missed quite the few details... As I said before her actions helped to creat a chain of reaction which ended in a huge war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToTheWolves Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 How much time did rhaegar spend with lyanna after and before getting her pregnant? I was just wondering if there was a time line of her kidnapping mentioned anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert the Great Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I would argue it was more Brandon and Roberts fault for hotheadingly overreacting, and Aerys's fault for turning what could have to handled as a minor squabble among young lordling into treason and burning people alive. I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but calling her one of the "10 worst people" for being an imperious young person in a series that has Ramsey Bolton, the Bitter, and Randyll "Rape Apologist" Tarly is a bit much.What was Robert supposed to do? Decapitate his head and give it to the mad king?His only fault at that point was being engaged to a girl who's reported to be missing with the crown prince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 How much time did rhaegar spend with lyanna after and before getting her pregnant? I was just wondering if there was a time line of her kidnapping mentioned anywhere? The best timeline I have find is: http://towerofthehand.com/essays/johnny/roberts_rebellion.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 How did Robert overreact? Wow, I'm really getting into a lot of trouble, aren't I? Maybe Robert didn't over react at the beginning of the Rebellion, given the whole "give me their heads thing". Consider that withdrawn. But he was still wishing he could kill Rhaegar again, like, fifteen years later, so yeah. I'm not disagree with Jon's Consort that Lyanna's actions help start RR, just that she's placing too much emphasis on her role in doing so, and the "wrongness" of the action itself is not even on the chart in a series where little girls push other little girls down wells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 As I said before her actions helped to creat a chain of reaction which ended in a huge war. And has that chain truly started with her abduction? You do know about dissatisfaction in kingdom during Aerys' reign, possibility that Harrenhal tourney was some sort of Great Council etc. The chain certainly didn't start with Lyanna, that's for sure. How much time did rhaegar spend with lyanna after and before getting her pregnant? I was just wondering if there was a time line of her kidnapping mentioned anywhere? The war started approximately a year after Harrenhal tourney, which means Lyanna was abducted a month or two prior to that, and he was A-wall until Battle of Trident, so he spent with her approximately between eight month and a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 You are welcome. For me if she went willingly is up there with Lysa. care to elaborate how she is worse than Tywin, Drogo, Roose, Ramsay, Gregor, Cersei, Jaime, Walder, Hoat or Balon? As I said before her actions helped to creat a chain of reaction which ended in a huge war. Her and Rhaegar's parents are equally causal by applying your own logic, by giving birth to their children respectively they helped create a chain of events that resulted in war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Maybe Robert didn't over react at the beginning of the Rebellion, given the whole "give me their heads thing". Consider that withdrawn. But he was still wishing he could kill Rhaegar again, like, fifteen years later, so yeah. http://www.one4theotherthumb.com/images/stories/2013season/dophinspreview/ttp4.gif And has that chain truly started with her abduction? You do know about dissatisfaction in kingdom during Aerys' reign, possibility that Harrenhal tourney was some sort of Great Council etc. The chain certainly didn't start with Lyanna, that's for sure. Rhaegar was planning to overthrown Aerys but Lyanna's action was what made the plans possible. If she wasn't then it would be everyone against Aerys when what happened because of Lyanna and Rhaegar was way worse. care to elaborate how she is worse than Tywin, Drogo, Roose, Ramsay, Gregor, Cersei, Jaime, Walder, Hoat or Balon? I don't think that she is better than Jaime. She is something between Jaime and Lysa. Her and Rhaegar's parents are equally causal by applying your own logic, by giving birth to their children respectively they helped create a chain of events that resulted in war. :bs: v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Wow, I'm really getting into a lot of trouble, aren't I? Maybe Robert didn't over react at the beginning of the Rebellion, given the whole "give me their heads thing". Consider that withdrawn. But he was still wishing he could kill Rhaegar again, like, fifteen years later, so yeah. I'm not disagree with Jon's Consort that Lyanna's actions help start RR, just that she's placing too much emphasis on her role in doing so, and the "wrongness" of the action itself is not even on the chart in a series where little girls push other little girls down wells. My point was that Robert did not go to war over Lyanna's abduction but only when Jon Arryn raised his banners he followed, as did Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Rhaegar was planning to overthrown Aerys but Lyanna's action was what made the plans possible. If she wasn't then it would be everyone against Aerys when what happened because of Lyanna and Rhaegar was way worse. I am sorry, but you are exaggerating the role Lyanna and Rhaegar had. No one went into the war because Lyanna was abducted. I repeat, no one. Not single person for a split of second (As far as we know) considered war just because Lyanna was "abducted". The war started when Aerys wanted Ned and Robert dead. Aerys' craziness drove lords into Harrenhal, Aerys' madness started the RR. It is that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I don't think that she is better than Jaime. She is something between Jaime and Lysa. Jamie is undoubtedly worse as he knowingly risked war by having an affair with the queen and producing illegitimate children repeatedly over a period of fifteen years and was perfectly willing to go to war for it, he is much closer to causing war regarding causality and actually supplied a direct reason for it. Opposed to that, the abduction itself was not even the reason for war, neither was Brandon's imprisonment following the abduction. eta: and that is leaving aside every other despicable thing Jaime did, pushing Bran, invading the Riverlands, threatening to kill a child etc. :bs: impeccable reasoning, how to argue with this :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 JQC: I just meat that Robert had this whole narrative in his head about how evil Rhaegar abducted his pure One True Love and he went on a Nobel Quest to save her only to have her snatched away after he's slain the Monster. The truth was probably that she just wasn't that into him. We don't have all the facts so feel free to disagree. Hmm.. so Lyanna abduction was like the shooting of Franz Ferdinand? ETA: I'm totally rethinking Rhaegar now. I guess I have to be open to the fact that he was also an asshole. Maybe SuperTech was right about me. :crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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