Jamie Lannister Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What do you think of this quote? Tyrion didn't have much of an answer to it. Would you agree or disagree with Tywin's reasoning here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He has a point. But....... It's not the killing so much as the breaking of guest right. GR is the foundation of diplomacy in Westeros, and Tywin threw it out the window. The consequences of that are much worse than any battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I disagree. Tywin neglects to mention one fact: The custom of guestright ensures stability and peace overall. It's the only way to enable diplomacy, peace-brokering, alliances and more.If it's broken for good, you are pretty much forced to sit in a chamber with a loaded crossbow for the rest of your life, because you can never trust anybody. You'd be forced to completely eradicate any opponent (enemy would be to strong a word yet), because you could never trust them to not do the same to you. In the end, keeping that custom alive is worth ten thousand lives - because it saves millions, maybe even billions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 One of the oldest debates in ethics. I would tend to agree with Tywin but I'm just glad I don't have to make calls like that. It would seem to me though that nobility was the last thing on Tywin's mind when he arranged the RW. don't tell me he gives a monkey's about a single one of the "ten thousand men" he just "saved" by assassinating Robb Stark !! There is a difference between dropping a bomb on a city to stop an outbreak of some kind, killing thousands to save millions & doing whatever it takes to win. Tywin was doing whatever it took to win, just as he always did. It may not make a difference in outcome or statistics but a persons motivations matter when discussing ethics, Tywin just said this to win an argument with Tyrion, doing whatever it takes to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The biggest hypocrite in the series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I disagree. Tywin neglects to mention one fact: The custom of guestright ensures stability and peace overall. It's the only way to enable diplomacy, peace-brokering, alliances and more.If it's broken for good, you are pretty much forced to sit in a chamber with a loaded crossbow for the rest of your life, because you can never trust anybody. You'd be forced to completely eradicate any opponent (enemy would be to strong a word yet), because you could never trust them to not do the same to you. In the end, keeping that custom alive is worth ten thousand lives - because it saves millions, maybe even billions.This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He has a point. But....... It's not the killing so much as the breaking of guest right. GR is the foundation of diplomacy in Westeros, and Tywin threw it out the window. The consequences of that are much worse than any battle. That's true. Tywin's logic involves weighing only two and exactly two possible outcomes -- one where he kills a dozen people and one where he kills 10,000 people. He breezily ignores the fallout from his decision because he believes (correctly, as it turns out) that they will never prove troublesome to him personally. This makes him little better than Joffrey, who lopped off Ned's head without even considering what might happen as a result. There is a difference between dropping a bomb on a city to stop an outbreak of some kind, killing thousands to save millions & doing whatever it takes to win. I agree with your overall post, but I have a quibble here. Tywin's logic is like unleashing a massive pandemic (like the Black Death) on a village in order to kill a single Taliban commander or something. Yeah, it looks on the surface like you're only killing a few people to save many more in the future, but the reality is that you're really setting off a chain reaction of events that you have no control over and causing havoc way down the line. This guest right thing should be a huge landmine in Westeros; it would be like if the United States used a U.N. convention in New York as a way to arrest and hold hostage a bunch of world dignitaries coming to visit. Violating diplomatic immunity is a great scam because no one sees it coming... the first time. Once you do it the first time though, no one will ever, ever trust you again with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Tywin massacred House Reyne and Tarbeck, and sent Gregor into the Riverlands to pillage smallfolk who had nothing to do with the situation at hand. He doesn't give a shit about saving lives. That was just his excuse. Also, sucker punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Winter Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Here Tywin tricked Tyrion. It's painfully obvious that Tywin doesn't give a shit about saving lives - we're talking about a guy who pointlessly massacred KL and ordered Gregor to rape, pillage and burn whole Riverlands. What Tywin does care about is winning the war most quickly and most efficiently. Whether it will be achieved by murdering 1, 100 or 100 000 people - it's all one and the same to Tywin. Tywin simply told Tyrion something to ease Tyrion's conscience and left him with no counter-arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I disagree. Tywin neglects to mention one fact: The custom of guestright ensures stability and peace overall. It's the only way to enable diplomacy, peace-brokering, alliances and more. If it's broken for good, you are pretty much forced to sit in a chamber with a loaded crossbow for the rest of your life, because you can never trust anybody. You'd be forced to completely eradicate any opponent (enemy would be to strong a word yet), because you could never trust them to not do the same to you. In the end, keeping that custom alive is worth ten thousand lives - because it saves millions, maybe even billions. To be fair to Tywin, he was nowhere near this thing when it comes to guest right. Walder Frey broke guest right (& the old gods will judge him in time). You can lead a horse to water etc. Tywin led Walder there but the curse is on his house. As for the political & diplomatic repercussions, the Freys killed pretty much everyone who was there & put it about it was the Starks who attacked them. Of course some know the truth or suspect it or, as in the case of the Northmen, simply know it is bullshit. There is however no reason not to believe that the realm at large thinks the Starks started the RW. This being the case, they are popularly thought to be all dead or in exile, a just punishment indeed for breaking the sacred guest right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 As if Tywin did that trying to save lives. LOL He's just being a jerk and annoying Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 To be fair to Tywin, he was nowhere near this thing when it comes to guest right. Walder Frey broke guest right (& the old gods will judge him in time). You can lead a horse to water etc. Tywin led Walder there but the curse is on his house. As for the political & diplomatic repercussions, the Freys killed pretty much everyone who was there & put it about it was the Starks who attacked them. Of course some know the truth or suspect it or, as in the case of the Northmen, simply know it is bullshit. There is however no reason not to believe that the realm at large thinks the Starks started the RW. This being the case, they are popularly thought to be all dead or in exile, a just punishment indeed for breaking the sacred guest right. I don't think that's quite the case though, if it would be simply for the fact that the Young Wolf was trully winning the war, and that was evident. Common sense would show the folks that are sensible enough that he would have absolutely nothing to win attacking the Freys at a feast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What do you think of this quote? Tyrion didn't have much of an answer to it. Would you agree or disagree with Tywin's reasoning here? The problem is, the quote is operating under false premises, just another manifestation of Tywin's overall dishonesty. "A dozen at dinner" is a crass misrepresentation, actually more of an outright lie as it neglects the thousands of Stark loyalists butchered at the Red Wedding, a host that was not moving against Tywin, but away, to the North. Furthermore, the Red Wedding set up a civil war in the North, one that most likely would not have occurred without the RW which is why it effectively cost vastly more lives than it saved (considering that it saved none and cost thousands). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 To be fair to Tywin, he was nowhere near this thing when it comes to guest right. Walder Frey broke guest right (& the old gods will judge him in time). You can lead a horse to water etc. Tywin led Walder there but the curse is on his house. As for the political & diplomatic repercussions, the Freys killed pretty much everyone who was there & put it about it was the Starks who attacked them. Of course some know the truth or suspect it or, as in the case of the Northmen, simply know it is bullshit. There is however no reason not to believe that the realm at large thinks the Starks started the RW. This being the case, they are popularly thought to be all dead or in exile, a just punishment indeed for breaking the sacred guest right. Frey would never have done it with out Lannister support. Not that it makes him any less culpable, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don't even see why anyone would have to ask which is more "noble." How is it even a question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Tywin isn't advocating abolishing guest right on principle; he's employing standard Machiavellian tactics of getting some arsehole to brutally stamp on his opponents - said arsehole can be let go when no longer needed. "I'm shocked, shocked gambling is taking place in Casablanca!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lady Stark Martell Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don't agree with him. A battle and a wedding are two different things. Not to mention the violation of the guest right. I think he was trying to make excuses, it has some sense in it, but it's still an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carey Snow Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The problem is that the dozen at the dinner party were not the only ones killed. Thousands of Robb Stark's army was also slain. It did save some Lannister (and their) army's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 The problem is that the dozen at the dinner party were not the only ones killed. Thousands of Robb Stark's army was also slain. It did save some Lannister (and their) army's lives. How? Robb was moving north to clean out the Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I agree with your overall post, but I have a quibble here. Tywin's logic is like unleashing a massive pandemic (like the Black Death) on a village in order to kill a single Taliban commander or something. Yeah, it looks on the surface like you're only killing a few people to save many more in the future, but the reality is that you're really setting off a chain reaction of events that you have no control over and causing havoc way down the line. This guest right thing should be a huge landmine in Westeros; it would be like if the United States used a U.N. convention in New York as a way to arrest and hold hostage a bunch of world dignitaries coming to visit. Violating diplomatic immunity is a great scam because no one sees it coming... the first time. Once you do it the first time though, no one will ever, ever trust you again with anything. To put some non-theoretical examples on the table: In the Finnish-Soviet War, the Soviets once used the white flag to propose a ceasefire and negotiations. When the Finnish came out into the open to do so, the Soviets opened fire with machine guns. The result? The Finnish rallied despite their losses, won the battle, shot every single wounded, made the prisoners draw lots and shot every fifth one. Battle losses in most cases are way, way below 10%... And it was considered a just, even merciful reaction, by the way. Could have gotten far worse. In the Second World War, many wounded Japanese soldiers kept pistols or grenades, trying to kill the Marines taking them prisoner and treating their wounds. The result? The unofficial standard procedure of the Marines became to shoot or bayonet every wounded soldier or the corpses not being definitely dead by being blown up or stuff. In both examples, committing a war crime led to a horrific backlash. To be fair to Tywin, he was nowhere near this thing when it comes to guest right. Walder Frey broke guest right (& the old gods will judge him in time). You can lead a horse to water etc. Tywin led Walder there but the curse is on his house. As for the political & diplomatic repercussions, the Freys killed pretty much everyone who was there & put it about it was the Starks who attacked them. Of course some know the truth or suspect it or, as in the case of the Northmen, simply know it is bullshit. There is however no reason not to believe that the realm at large thinks the Starks started the RW. This being the case, they are popularly thought to be all dead or in exile, a just punishment indeed for breaking the sacred guest right. Except that the North, the Riverlands and even the Faith are preaching Lannister involvement from every corner. The seven-damned Faith! In KL itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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