"Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."

[Michael Herman]

He did kill thousands of people in battle, though slaughter would be a more apt word, Robb brought like 5,000 me to the Twins almost all of whom were slaughtered. It isn't more noble to kill men in battle, but to promise loyalty and fealty then stab someone in the back is pretty despicable to say the least. This makes the worst culprits of the RW the Frey's and Boltons, as the Lannisters didn't betray anyone, however they were involved in the breaking of Westeros' mst sacred laws.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

People don't really have a problem with the guest right thing being broken imo in regards to the RW.

Its why pepole cheer for Joffrey's death even though that was a violation of guest rights.

People have a problem because it fucked Robb and "killed" Catelyn.

Couldn't agree more. Same with Dany in Astapor. While I'm not sure if they have the same type of ceremony, it's fairly similar circumstances in that she was a guest in the city in order to conduct business. There was no expectation of fighting as some have argued is an important distinction. I wish people would just flat out admit it rather than rationalizing the fact afterward. Guest right is an afterthought which people will overlook if they don't like the character being killed. The strong response isn't really a concern for all the future potential people that will be killed.

[Mad Monkey]

As I said before, Dany's actions in Astapor cause the same problems for her that the Red Wedding have and will cause for Freys, Boltons, etc. In ADWD her envoys get a chilly reception from almost everyone she sends them to; no one will make any deals with her because they don't trust her any more, and she has developed a reputation for treachery. The slavers were scumbags but the manner of their downfall raises serious doubts about Dany's integrity and how she conducts business.

As far as Joffrey's death goes, no one really knows that the Tyrells were behind it. If word got out, their reputation would be in the toilet too, especially since most people don't know how bad Joffrey really was. Heck, Aerys had a worse reputation among the nobility but Jaime is still reviled for killing him.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

As I said before, Dany's actions in Astapor cause the same problems for her that the Red Wedding have and will cause for Freys, Boltons, etc. In ADWD her envoys get a chilly reception from almost everyone she sends them to; no one will make any deals with her because they don't trust her any more, and she has developed a reputation for treachery.

Aren't those "everyone" slavers themselves? Is there someone who isn't building his fortune on slavery and at the same time begrudges her Astapor?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Nearly 3,000 people died at that dinner, and Twyin was aware of that. So his words are empty.

To Tywin only the few dozen with lands and titles really mattered.

[harry_dresden]

No such thing as envoys right.

nope guest right can apply to envoys as well

[Jasta11]

Couldn't agree more. Same with Dany in Astapor. While I'm not sure if they have the same type of ceremony, it's fairly similar circumstances in that she was a guest in the city in order to conduct business. There was no expectation of fighting as some have argued is an important distinction. I wish people would just flat out admit it rather than rationalizing the fact afterward. Guest right is an afterthought which people will overlook if they don't like the character being killed. The strong response isn't really a concern for all the future potential people that will be killed.

I hate Dany's actions in Astapor almost as much as I hate the red Wedding, so that argument doesn't work for me. And as much as I hated the man's very guts, what the Watch deserters did to Craster was also a giant dick move; the guy does shelter and feed them despite not liking them at all.

[TheSnape]

Tyrion wouldn't back out on a marriage?

1.)The guy who signs away hundreds of thousands of gold dragons that weren't his to join the Second Sons.

2.)The guy who had Symon Silvertongue killed to keep from being blackmailed?

3.)The guy who murdered his own father? Not sure I can agree with this.

1.) Yes, they are his. He's the Lord of CR by birth, and by Westerosi Law he's ahead on the succession by Cersei. She's usurped his rightful place as Lord of CR

2.) Common sense

3.) Tywin had it coming.

[Draco_Dracul]

Over the coming decades more than 10000 men that would have otherwise lived will die because guest right has been broken. It's like using chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, now that it has been done the door is wide open. People that would have otherwise let an old enemy have safety due to guest right will instead butcher them while they sleep, people refusing to disarm due to justified paranoia will lead to unnecessary conflict, and weddings that would have laid to rest old grudges won't happen for fear of another Red Wedding leaving them to fester until they grow to war. The worst part is that by using the Redwyne fleet to move troops to the Crossing and instructing the Freys to keep The Northern army in the south, Tywin could have crushed them in the field.

[Cas Stark]

Over the coming decades more than 10000 men that would have otherwise lived will die because guest right has been broken. It's like using chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, now that it has been done the door is wide open. People that would have otherwise let an old enemy have safety due to guest right will instead butcher them while they sleep, people refusing to disarm due to justified paranoia will lead to unnecessary conflict, and weddings that would have laid to rest old grudges won't happen for fear of another Red Wedding leaving them to fester until they grow to war. The worst part is that by using the Redwyne fleet to move troops to the Crossing and instructing the Freys to keep The Northern army in the south, Tywin could have crushed them in the field.

I agree, I don't understand how people can't see that the RW will have reverbations for decades to come, for everyone in Westeros.

Tywin should have just had Sybil Spicer poison Robb and his top lieutenants.

[KingWinter]

Tywin did it for one reason and one reason only, to win. He had faced Robb/the north 3 times and lost every time. As much as he probably was aware that Robb was losing the war by making stupid diplomatic decisions he's not the type of guy to leave things to luck. Also the war was at a standstill. The only way the north had a chance was go back home and defend the north.

[Ranzadule]

The people involved in battle consent on some level to the battle. When you have Guest Rights, you do not consent to being murdered. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." Believing this is dangerous.

[iridescence]

The people involved in battle consent on some level to the battle. When you have Guest Rights, you do not consent to being murdered. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one." Believing this is dangerous.

I think most of the soldiers are conscripts so it's tough to say they really consented unless you consider not wanting to be sent to the wall or killed as a deserter consent.

The Tywin quote is very self serving but I found it interesting. No one who employs Gregor Clegane really cares about battle casualties on the other side but he is clearly trying to justify himself to himself here.

[House Ross]

Guest right is a key principle in Westeros. When you abolish said principle, as Tywin and Frey did, you set another principle*.

*Anything goes, cut-throat, do whatever it takes to be #1.

It's GRRM being real. Telling it how it is. An inevitable truth coming to surface.

Brilliant. May be thee greatest quote of the series.

[averde]

If Tywin was looking to save lives he could have just assassinated/ taken prisoner Robb and a few others of the leading nobility. Instead he condones the killing of all the nobility and the massacre of the entire Northern host, thats a lot of lives. Tywin doesn't strike me as the type who went out of the way to make a plan that saved lives, the Red Wedding was just the quickest most guaranteed end to his Stark problem.

Forgetting that point though to enter a philosophical debate about the whole "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner." idea. The idea of killing one man (or in this case a few) to save thousands is one of those moral debates that comes up a lot in movies, TVs, books, games (Last of Us for example). On one hand its an assassination that to this day is considered a war crime. Its considered a sneaky evil thing to do. It does bring up a serious point on morality and right and wrong, but often these kind of things are very confusing when put into a war scenario. Every person is going to have a different opinion on it depending on their own moralities and ideas on war ethics, etc. In my opinion if you could kill one person, or just a few, and save thousands of lives its the right thing to do.

[Pib_Juju]

It's a good point, but I still doubted his sincerity. Tywin gives every indication that he considers the lives of a dozen noblemen to be worth quite a bit more than the lives of a thousand commoners.

[danm_999]

Tywin is full of shit here, obviously.

Tywin is effectively trying to make a utalitarian argument here to Tyrion. War is bad, because it causes death and suffering. If we can minimise the loss of life to end a war, that's a good thing, even if we do it through dishonourable or ignoble means. Life is more important than archaic morality. It sounds like a good argument at first, until you consider a key point about the person making it;

Tywin himself in no small part caused the war in question by attacking the Riverlands to defend his family's status as 'unfuckable with'. If Tywin was really concerned about nobility and utility, he would have taken a diplomatic approach to the conflict. I think the line that really sums it up for me best is this one.

“By my lights, it was you who started this,” Lord Tywin replied. “Your brother Jaime would never have meekly submitted to capture at the hands of a woman.”
“That’s one way we differ, Jaime and I. He’s taller as well, you may have noticed.”
His father ignored the sally. “The honor of our House was at stake. I had no choice but to ride. No man sheds Lannister blood with impunity.”

I think the first thing to note is that no Lannister blood was shed. Simply, the "honor of our House was at stake". Not condemned, not lost, "at stake". Tywin could likely have petitoned Robert to have Tyrion released (it's what actually happens after all) and even gotten concessions from the Starks to make up for the grevious insult. Nobody had to die at all.

So when Tywin turns around in ASoS and bemoans about how it's important to avoid long wars, I can't help but scoff given the above. He's hiding behind the exact same archaic morality as guest right to justify getting into a war (honor, tradition, noble civility) then pretending war is about pragmatism and damning convention to get out of it. Basically, the rules of polite society apply to Tywin when he feels it benefits him, and throwing them aside when he doesn't.

[Petyr Patter]

Some good points Danm_999.

I would go further and say letting Robb live was the actual more pragmatic decision, specifically trying to get him to bend the knee, and then turn around and take the fight to the Ironborn. A Walder Frey who openly declares for King Joffrey would almost certainly be the end of Robb's military campaign. His army would be stuck on the wrong side of the river while the combined might of the Reach and the West marches on him.

Generous terms, and even Robb would have to consider peace.

Tywin out of fear and pride decided to just wipe out the Northern resistance, though it ultimately left Westeros weaker, not stronger. We are seeing the fallout even now as the Ironborn continue to pillage the Reach while the Brotherhood has more influence in the Riverlands then the Freys and the Crown.

[Winter's Knight]

It wasn't just a dozen men at dinner though,it was several thousand soldiers as well, slaughtered while they were drunk and had their guard down.

[A Bastard Snow]

It wasn't just a dozen men at dinner though,it was several thousand soldiers as well, slaughtered while they were drunk and had their guard down.

Yea it wasent a few dozen that died it was at least 3000 Stark Loyalists killed by violating Guest Right.IMO it was extremely foolish as it has made it so the Frey's/Bolton/Lannisters are not trusted at all to have several thousand men murdered at a wedding.Anyone who is part of those houses can never expect to have the right of a guest as they will never be welcomed in the north or the riverlands.

"The North Remembers" Nearly ever single person in the North/Riverlands lost someone to the Red Wedding and are just waiting for a chance to get revenge.The hostages the Freys have wont save them either as any hostage they kill will just anger the Riverlords even more and make them want to kill every Frey at the Twins