Jump to content

"Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner."


Jamie Lannister

Recommended Posts

Well, i can't talk for everybody but i personnaly despise Robb for what he did to the Frey ( Saying he will marry his daughter and take his men, send them to slaughter and not honor his engagements ), so i would still think the same thing. But even if it would be from a character i liked, exemple Tyrion ( Who would anyway never do something this low ) i would still complain as much about it.

Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up. But no, he sat on his arse and refused to do his goddamn job unless he got to extort a bribe. Total POS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I find this guest right excuse and how it is a sacred to be unconvincing, since nobody complains about Dany buying some slaves and then killing the traders right after.

Daenerys didn't eat any food offered by Kraznys if I recall correctly, so it didn't count. You have to eat of the host's food to become a guest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up. But no, he sat on his arse and refused to do his goddamn job unless he got to extort a bribe. Total POS.

Walder Frey didn't owe Robb anything, Robb isn't lord of Riverrun and neither is Cat. Even if they were, they were rebelling against the crown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up. But no, he sat on his arse and refused to do his goddamn job unless he got to extort a bribe. Total POS.

Walder didn't even have to join in the war all he could have done was open the bridge and if the Tullys/Starks had lost than he could have simply lied and said that he and his were threatened with the force of the Starks/Tullys if he didn't open the bridge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up.

True-and don't forget Walder is killing a lot of other people at the RW, who never slighted him at all, AND imprisoning and terrorizing poor Edmure-who's now his son in law.

But ultimately, sure the fact that people like the Starks makes them even madder about the RW, but it's not fair to say they're just playing favorites and everybody would be ok with the Starks doing that to the Lannister's. Dany's supposed to be a book favorite as well, (and quite possibly The Chosen One) but nobody hesitated to call her out, when she became bloodthirsty in Slaver's Bay. Tyrion's earned a lot of enmity for murdering Shae among other things, despite being Martin's obvious favorite. Everybody hates Cersei, but the Walk of Shame, (which she definitely brought on herself,) still made people queasy. And as much hated as Theon was for his actions in ACoK, we were all horrified by his transformation into Reek. It's not just favoritism...there are some things we just can't condone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Freys killed thousands of people that thought they were allies and friends. Tywins just making excuses.






Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up. But no, he sat on his arse and refused to do his goddamn job unless he got to extort a bribe. Total POS.




Walder was just using it as an excuse, but he was right when he pointed out that he swore an oath to the crown too.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys didn't eat any food offered by Kraznys if I recall correctly, so it didn't count. You have to eat of the host's food to become a guest.

So if GRRM did not mention guest right you would totally be cool with the Freys and the RW ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Walder Frey owed him those men anyway, because he's sworn to Riverrun. Why is it that so many Frey apologists completely forget that he was bargaining with things already owed by his feudal obligations? Catelyn points it out, the Frey strength should have marched and joined the Tully host long before Robb showed up. But no, he sat on his arse and refused to do his goddamn job unless he got to extort a bribe. Total POS.

He owed nothing to Robb actually, he ''owed'' them to Hoster Tully and IIRC Hoster didn't send word to The twins to ask Walder to send men. I could be wrong though, i don't remember every single detail from AGOT so tell me if i forgot something. Also, something i didn't understand is why Edmure ( and maybe Hoster, i don't remember if he did ) considered his brat of a nephew ( Robb ) as his king ? The Tully owe absolutely nothing to the Stark. I don't understand why Edmure and Robb didn't stand as equal... Also, i'm not a Frey apologist, i hate them more than any other family besides the Bolton. Why do i like the Frey more than the Bolton ? Not all Frey are bad, but every Bolton is a coward. For Daenerys burning Kraznys after buying ( actually steling the unsullied ), even though they deserved it, she had no right to steal them and then kill them, what she did was extremely wrong. If she would have actually bought them and then declared war agaisnt them and killed them, it would be ok. what she did was pretty much murder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He owed nothing to Robb actually, he ''owed'' them to Hoster Tully and IIRC Hoster didn't send word to The twins to ask Walder to send men. I could be wrong though, i don't remember every single detail from AGOT so tell me if i forgot something. Also, something i didn't understand is why Edmure ( and maybe Hoster, i don't remember if he did ) considered his brat of a nephew ( Robb ) as his king ? The Tully owe absolutely nothing to the Stark. I don't understand why Edmure and Robb didn't stand as equal... Also, i'm not a Frey apologist, i hate them more than any other family besides the Bolton. Why do i like the Frey more than the Bolton ? Not all Frey are bad, but every Bolton is a coward. For Daenerys burning Kraznys after buying ( actually steling the unsullied ), even though they deserved it, she had no right to steal them and then kill them, what she did was extremely wrong. If she would have actually bought them and then declared war agaisnt them and killed them, it would be ok. what she did was pretty much murder.

It was probably because Robb freed the heir to the Riverlands, lifted the Siege on Riverrun and saved them from the Lannisters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's only utilitarian from a selfish, short-term perspective on Tywin's part. If you take a broader, more even perspective and look at the utility lost on the other side from loss of life and account for the important social role of guest right, it's not utilitarian at all for Westeros as a whole.

I'm referring to Tywin's argument, not his actions - if you deep dive in Tywin's policies and actions since his father died, it's very clear that he is ruthless and ultimately selfish. However, his argument (i.e. value of 10K lives vs. value of a bunch of lives) is an utilitarian argument.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, i can't talk for everybody but i personnaly despise Robb for what he did to the Frey ( Saying he will marry his daughter and take his men, send them to slaughter and not honor his engagements ), so i would still think the same thing. But even if it would be from a character i liked, exemple Tyrion ( Who would anyway never do something this low ) i would still complain as much about it.

Well, on the other hand he was 15 years old and his mother is the one who arranged the marriage. Treating him as if he had made an adult decision to marry the Frey and then backed out on the deal is unrealistic.

Tyrion wouldn't back out on a marriage? The guy who signs away hundreds of thousands of gold dragons that weren't his to join the Second Sons. The guy who had Symon Silvertongue killed to keep from being blackmailed? The guy who murdered his own father? Not sure I can agree with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree. Tywin neglects to mention one fact: The custom of guestright ensures stability and peace overall. It's the only way to enable diplomacy, peace-brokering, alliances and more.

If it's broken for good, you are pretty much forced to sit in a chamber with a loaded crossbow for the rest of your life, because you can never trust anybody. You'd be forced to completely eradicate any opponent (enemy would be to strong a word yet), because you could never trust them to not do the same to you.

In the end, keeping that custom alive is worth ten thousand lives - because it saves millions, maybe even billions.

I think Guest Right is a strong enough tradition that it will survive being broken once by Walder Frey. People are still horrified when Lyn Corbray threatens Littlefinger at the Eyrie - there's no sense of "well, this is how things go now."

This also seems to assume that the RW was the first time Guest Right was publicly violated, which I doubt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, on the other hand he was 15 years old and his mother is the one who arranged the marriage. Treating him as if he had made an adult decision to marry the Frey and then backed out on the deal is unrealistic.

Tyrion wouldn't back out on a marriage? The guy who signs away hundreds of thousands of gold dragons that weren't his to join the Second Sons. The guy who had Symon Silvertongue killed to keep from being blackmailed? The guy who murdered his own father? Not sure I can agree with this.

Show Tyrion maybe. Although I can't hold it against him that he killed Tywin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, on the other hand he was 15 years old and his mother is the one who arranged the marriage. Treating him as if he had made an adult decision to marry the Frey and then backed out on the deal is unrealistic.

Tyrion wouldn't back out on a marriage? The guy who signs away hundreds of thousands of gold dragons that weren't his to join the Second Sons. The guy who had Symon Silvertongue killed to keep from being blackmailed? The guy who murdered his own father? Not sure I can agree with this.

I was talking about how he would never murder people in a marriage. Also, the gold he signed were technically his, he is in fact the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, Tywin had no good reason to deny him that. His father was going to kind of murder him anyway ( He was a judge and obviously was on Cersei's side, without even close to a proof, without trial by battle, Tywin would have voted Tyrion guilty and you know that, ), so what's bad about murdering someone who was gonna murder you ? And i understand Robb was 15, but even someone this young shouldn't have married a girl that would give him nothing, i know it may sound harsh, but he is not a peasant, he is a high lord and as such shouldn't make stupid decisions like that. He does have responsabilities as a lord and he was trained to be a lord. Also, Jon Snow is even younger than him and didn't make decisions near as stupid as Robb's. Jon is a great leader for his age though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, on the other hand he was 15 years old and his mother is the one who arranged the marriage. Treating him as if he had made an adult decision to marry the Frey and then backed out on the deal is unrealistic.

If Robb's too young to honor a betrothal he never should have led an army, let alone don a crown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That phrase is what Tywin says himself every night so he can sleep and look himself in the mirror, among with similar things like "I did it for the Realm", "Gregory and Lorch did it", "my son needed to learn the lesson", "it was my father's fault", etc, etc.

"The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine" is another example

I don't think Tywin is guilty of breaking Guest Right, but he is the king of denial and rationalization

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He owed nothing to Robb actually, he ''owed'' them to Hoster Tully and IIRC Hoster didn't send word to The twins to ask Walder to send men. I could be wrong though, i don't remember every single detail from AGOT so tell me if i forgot something. Also, something i didn't understand is why Edmure ( and maybe Hoster, i don't remember if he did ) considered his brat of a nephew ( Robb ) as his king ? The Tully owe absolutely nothing to the Stark. I don't understand why Edmure and Robb didn't stand as equal... Also, i'm not a Frey apologist, i hate them more than any other family besides the Bolton. Why do i like the Frey more than the Bolton ? Not all Frey are bad, but every Bolton is a coward. For Daenerys burning Kraznys after buying ( actually steling the unsullied ), even though they deserved it, she had no right to steal them and then kill them, what she did was extremely wrong. If she would have actually bought them and then declared war agaisnt them and killed them, it would be ok. what she did was pretty much murder.

Lord Tully calls his banners at the end of AGOT and the Freys ignore him, just as they ignored him when he called his banners during Robert's Rebellion.

You make an interesting point about Daenerys, but note also that she doesn't escape repercussions for this. By ADWD, word of her behavior has spread so far that her envoys are rebuffed or even killed out right. No one will make a deal with her, even people who are not from Slaver's Bay, except for the Lhazarenes. While no one feels any particular sympathy for Kraznys and co, the fact is that someone who is willing to break the rules of engagement so egregriously becomes so unpredictable that it's impossible to work with them. I'm not a Dany hater by any means and I enjoyed watching her turning the tables on the slavers, but realistically if you were another civilization observing this you wouldn't trust Dany either because you can't be sure that she won't make a deal with you and then destroy you to avoid fulfilling her end of the bargain immediately.

Also, something i didn't understand is why Edmure ( and maybe Hoster, i don't remember if he did ) considered his brat of a nephew ( Robb ) as his king ?

This is made explicit in the books. Robb rescued the Riverlands from the Lannisters and freed Edmure from captivity (Jaime had him locked in a cage before Robb turned up). This is why they made Robb the King of the Trident, because Robb earned their love and adoration by actually saving them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...