Crows,Wolves,Dogs and Men: The Dog and his she-Wolf

[Daeron's Black Boots]

As I posted above, a warg only involves a wolf. A warg is a skinchanger. This comes from GRRM. Arya and Varamyr are different. One has a direwolf, the other doesn't, among other things. Think about it.

Varamyr also known as Lump... is an abomination... he eats human flesh when in wolf body. a taboo.

this is arya's favorite thing to do when warging/skinchaging nymeria...

[Empire]

There is nothing here.

To my recollection, Sandor has no magical connection to dogs.

Similarly, I don't think he is an avatar for a deity. He's damaged and found religion, and is a well crafted character.

[wolfmaid7]

wait are you saying Haggon didn't teach Lump how to warg/skinchange wolves?

he was part of the wolf-brothers clan when he met Orell...

i thought Lump ate Haggons heart then became Varamyr 3 skins, then collected a few animals ( never a bird). he also pushed him out of his old wolf killing Haggon's 2nd life...

he wanted to steal ghost from JS but didn't...

edit: also this is my first thread and a work in progress. If I am going to say the Hound is a warg/skinchanger who teaches Arya about death and sends her the way to the FM then i should have the nessacry quotes in order before giving my analysis.

you'll just have to wait until im finished before critiquing my work.

Skinchanging wolves has nothing to do with a direwolf.Skinchanging as wrt what V6 does is "against" the animal's will. He broke all his animals including his wolves.

The Direwolves are not broken wills they initiated the bonds with the Stark children. Likewise when Bran was being taught by BR how to skinchange with the Ravens he failed twice because he tried to do with the Raven what he does with Hodor and what V6 does with his animals.

I have to ask what makes you think the Hound is a Skinchanger? His conversations in Arya and Sansa's POV has not even alluded or inferred he has the gift at all.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Varamyr also known as Lump... is an abomination... he eats human flesh when in wolf body. a taboo.'

this is arya's favorite thing to do when warging/skinchaging nymeria...

They do like to eat some flesh in wolf mode. I just meant Arya has a direwolf, and Varamyr had regular wolves. They are still both wargs, but the direwolf seems to be a little different than the regular wolf and the Stark a little different then the other skinchnagers. Varamyr nor Haggon speak about wolf dreams, that I recall.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

I have to ask what makes you think the Hound is a Skinchanger? His conversations in Arya and Sansa's POV has not even alluded or inferred he has the gift at all.

i have to say number 102 and 103 number 107. come to mind.

if the hound was truly in love with the little bird he would follow her wherever she went. If we consider the possibilty the old dog is Sandor, the dream makes sense and her saying i wish you were lady (she really means the hound) means she wishes he were there proctecting her and taking that maidenhood

he is still following her which is why the rape of Mariallion was prevented when dumbas LF was fucking his wife and left sansa vunerable...

there is also the quote when Lothor pulls blade on the singer and she thought it was the hound. i tend to think sandor walked the old dog over to get his attetion then brought him to sansa lassie style

beyond heretical i know that is why i created a separate thread...

[Empire]

Here is the issue. We (and the author) use 'the hound' to refer to a group of hunting dogs, the house clegane, Sandor clegane himself, and any image or representation of the same, or the act of hounding.

Just because the noun refers to one does not collapse the distinction between the words.

Sandor's house and seal are a pun - he is a biddable dog to his superiors, he hounds his enemies, and just to ice it his seal is a dog.

If he were a warg, he'd have shown some inkling of ability by now. There would be foreshadowing, or inexplicable relationships between Clegane and animals. There has been none. Zilch. Zero. None.

He's a neat character. He doesn't need the help of being a warg or skin changer or whatever.

There is nothing here. It is not heretical, it is wrong. But thank you for your thoughts.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Here is the issue. We (and the author) use 'the hound' to refer to a group of hunting dogs, the house clegane, Sandor clegane himself, and any image or representation of the same, or the act of hounding.

Just because the noun refers to one does not collapse the distinction between the words.

Sandor's house and seal are a pun - he is a biddable dog to his superiors, he hounds his enemies, and just to ice it his seal is a dog.

If he were a warg, he'd have shown some inkling of ability by now. There would be foreshadowing, or inexplicable relationships between Clegane and animals. There has been none. Zilch. Zero. None.

He's a neat character. He doesn't need the help of being a warg or skin changer or whatever.

There is nothing here.

please pull quotes from a Sandor Clegane POV that prove that he isn't...

the post above might help you out brother. Look at quotes 102 103 and 107 and report back.

preventing sansa from being raped... sound like a hound-ish thing to do. since he has already done it once before

[Empire]

I am under no obligation to pull quotes to disprove an extraordinary claim. You have a hypothesis. It needs to be validated. It has not been.

As such, I default to the null hypothesis - Sandor Clegane has no magical powers.

Dude, you've heard these criticisms over multiple incarnations. Let's not revisit it. You obviously read scoured the books to find evidence for this idea, but you yourself say it is a work in progress. That strikes me as code for "someone confirm this belief I already have".

This is another swing and a miss. But hey, happens to us all.

[wolfmaid7]

i have to say number 102 and 103 number 107. come to mind.

if the hound was truly in love with the little bird he would follow her wherever she went. If we consider the possibilty the old dog is Sandor, the dream makes sense and her saying i wish you were lady (she really means the hound) means she wishes he were there proctecting her and taking that maidenhood

he is still following her which is why the rape of Mariallion was prevented when dumbas LF was fucking his wife and left sansa vunerable...

there is also the quote when Lothor pulls blade on the singer and she thought it was the hound. i tend to think sandor walked the old dog over to get his attetion then brought him to sansa lassie style

beyond heretical i know that is why i created a separate thread...

Dude that's not heretical,its nonsense. It doesn't in the least bit prove or even allude to the Hound being a Skinchanger, that creating links where there are none. No matter how many incarnations you choose,you are still not getting it. There is making something out of something,and making something out of nothing.This has no thread that can even be followed.

Here is a suggestion,please please please analyze your work first and then post it. Synthesize your points if that is even possible.But please help us out because we can't follow a trail that isn't even there.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Dude that's not heretical,its nonsense. It doesn't in the least bit prove or even allude to the Hound being a Skinchanger, that creating links where there are none. No matter how many incarnations you choose,you are still not getting it. There is making something out of something,and making something out of nothing.This has no thread that can even be followed.

Here is a suggestion,please please please analyze your work first and then post it. Synthesize your points if that is even possible.But please help us out because we can't follow a trail that isn't even there.

can you even answer my questions without getting upset?

i asked people to give me awhile as 100 + quotes to prove my theory takes time to put together.

I am under no obligation to pull quotes to disprove an extraordinary claim. You have a hypothesis. It needs to be validated. It has not been.

As such, I default to the null hypothesis - Sandor Clegane has no magical powers.

Dude, you've heard these criticisms over multiple incarnations. Let's not revisit it. You obviously read scoured the books to find evidence for this idea, but you yourself say it is a work in progress. That strikes me as code for "someone confirm this belief I already have".

This is another swing and a miss. But hey, happens to us all.

you have always been extremely critical of posters in the past.

if you disagree with me thats fine but i was trying to help you understand how i reached my conclusion that the Hound is a skinchanger.

i already did all the work for you. #'s 102 103 and 107 of the OP suggest that he was indeed "skinchaning" a dog to protect Sansa....

if you disagree that is fine but it just means that i am a better reader than you.

check out the new Mercy chapter on GRRMS site....

kinda validates the whole arya not giving the hound the gift. faceless men/skinchanging connection blah blah blah...

[wolfmaid7]

can you even answer my questions without getting upset?

i asked people to give me awhile as 100 + quotes to prove my theory takes time to put together.

you have always been extremely critical of posters in the past.

if you disagree with me thats fine but i was trying to help you understand how i reached my conclusion that the Hound is a skinchanger.

i already did all the work for you. #'s 102 103 and 107 of the OP suggest that he was indeed "skinchaning" a dog to protect Sansa....

if you disagree that is fine but it just means that i am a better reader than you.

check out the new Mercy chapter on GRRMS site....

kinda validates the whole arya not giving the hound the gift. faceless men/skinchanging connection blah blah blah...

I'm not upset because there is nothing to get upset about.If this is how you continually wish to start posts like this then that's on you. Posters are simply saying it's not working because "how you arrive" at your conclusions doesn't make logical sense.There is no link except word associations.Its worse when you slap us in the face with a " i'm doing an analysis". Come on dude.

You just took quotes that have the word Dog and Sansa and wham.....Sandor is a Skinchanger. That is not critical analysis at all there is no rhyme or reason to this.

What you are doing seriously is a disservice to the readers by just taking loads of quotes and just dumping them on the screen while saying give me a while to analyze.

Use a word doc ,get everything together and then cut and paste here,otherwise it comes of as trolling,fishing etc.Get it all together then we can have discourse.

[Empire]

My good man, I am critical of your posts because they are wrong. I do not come with hate in my heart or really any strong feeling whatsoever.

I read those three quotes and have no idea how they apply. My only inclination is that you are collapsing the presence of any dog or hound with the hound. This is sophistry.

You claim to be a "better reader" than me. I don't know how one could measure being a better reader, and you are opening up a can of worms. I'll give you a mulligan on that one.

I read Mercy's chapter and do not agree with your assessment. I do not see how Clegane is involved at all.

I also don't know how else to civilly communicate to you that the flaw is not with the audience here...

[Daeron's Black Boots]

You claim to be a "better reader" than me. I don't know how one could measure being a better reader, and you are opening up a can of worms. I'll give you a mulligan on that one.

I read Mercy's chapter and do not agree with your assessment. I do not see how Clegane is involved at all.

I also don't know how else to civilly communicate to you that the flaw is not with the audience here...

# 23

# 104

#105

if you can tell me how i made my connection ill give you a gift...

edit: you can continue to communicate with me but understand I have a pretty firm grasp of what I am saying so lets both try and be civil...

[Empire]

Read and still do not understand.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Read and still do not understand.

ok well let me put it simply.

The title of the Chapter released today is Mercy.

1.the gift of mercy is what she wanted to give the hound

2. the hound also called Sandor uses his evil helm to give a man a drink of water ( not wine like both wanted) then teaches Arya how to kill a man. Mercy

3. this is the original purpose of the faceless men. Mercy

this is the connection between skinchanging and his mentorship of the direwolf in a Haggon and Varamyr ( Lump ) fashion.

he offered her his heart to stab. she refused. that was destiny. they have more mercy to grant the fools of westeros.

[Empire]

Now that is compelling, but not for skin changing or warging or magic reasons.

It's compelling because of the allegory, and very interesting that Arya would identify as mercy rather than justice.

Ultimately, Arya rejects the guise of Mercy in favor of her own name (but not before taking some extra time as Mercy). This is suggestive of what will happen in Arya's future, but doesn't really give us anything new.

Good catch, but not for the reasons you asserted.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Now that is compelling, but not for skin changing or warging or magic reasons.

It's compelling because of the allegory, and very interesting that Arya would identify as mercy rather than justice.

Ultimately, Arya rejects the guise of Mercy in favor of her own name (but not before taking some extra time as Mercy). This is suggestive of what will happen in Arya's future, but doesn't really give us anything new.

Good catch, but not for the reasons you asserted.

dude you know this incarnation speaks the truth and knows never to be false.

:devil:

can i point you towards a few more quotes that have to do with allegory and suggest warging/skinchanging on arya's behalf and also a connection to that the warging/skinchanging ability is what lead her to the faceless men organization?

it involves a a complete new look at book one and a close look at nymeria's biting of a lionprince and escape, ( lack of a Joffrey's dog pov), and the murder of the butchers boy and the slaying of a Lady...

mercy? did the hound give the gift to a innocent little boy to have the she-wolf hate him for a reason?

[Empire]

You are infuriating but I have xanax.

And thus begins a series of very unfortunate choices.

Sure, tell me. But as it stands now I do not believe Sandor has any magical inclination, warg or otherwise.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

11. " mercy ser. The Hound gave him a smack across the face that made him scream again. Don't call me ser, he turned back to Arya, this ones your she-wolf. You can do it. she knew what he meant. Arya went to Polliver and knelt in his blood long enough to undo his sword belt. Hanging beside his dagger was a slimmer blade, too long to be a dirk, too short to be a mans sword but it felt just right in her hand. You remember where the heart is? She nodded, mercy, she slipped the blade between his ribs and gave it to him" SOS Arya 54

12. " His eyes opened, Do you remember where the heart is? I was only... Don't lie he growled. I hate liars, I hate gutless frauds even worse, go on do it. When Arya did not move, he said, I killed your butchers boy. I near cut him in half and laughed about it later. he made a queer sound and it took her a moment to see that he was sobbing." SOS Arya 54

13. " and the pretty little bird, your pretty sister, I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf. A spasm of pain twitched on his face. Do you mean to make me beg bitch, do it! the gift of mercy avenge your little michael. Mycah, Arya stepped away from him. you don't deserve the gift of mercy." SOS Arya 54

14. " The Hound watched her saddle Craven through eyes bright with fever. Not once did he rise and attempt to stop her, but when she mounted he said, A real wolf would finish a wounded animal. You shouldn't have hit me with an axe and you should have saved my mother." SOS Arya 54

15. " crows fled before wolves, wolves fled before men. She had abandoned the cold white prize in the mud where she had dragged it, and ran, and felt no shame. When the morning came, the Hound did not need to shout at Arya or shake her awake. She had woken before him for a change, and even watered their horses. They broke their fast in silence until Sandor said. This thing about your mother... It doesn't matter, Arya said in a dull voice. I know she's dead I saw her in a dream. The Hound looked at her a long time then nodded. No more was said of it." SOS Arya 54

also look at number 38.

this explains the origin of her biting her lip, when she lies. also ties into why she picks the name Cat of the Canals ( this is in memory of her mother but also for the reason the kindly man describes.

she wargs/skingchanges a cat succesfully to carry out her mission to see and prevent the Kindly Man from hitting her with a stick as well.

this original lesson by syrio the blade of braavos had a purpose and future ramifications.

more mercy allegories for you. he has to be connected to either the FM or warging but since arya is doing both i think we can assume he might have been as well which is why he made sure she got to where she was going.

i also tie in the " heart " appearence's to the Varyamyr eating Haggon's heart quote in ADWD prologue.

[Empire]

Typically in an allegory, the characters take the names of the virtues they represent, so Mercy/Arya was a very straightforward allegory that I didn't even think of.

Arya's cat-relationships is well foreshadowed and very subtle, but Sandor Clegane isn't a part of it.