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Benioff and Weiss in Vanity Fair


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A lengthy interview with executive producers David Benioff and Dan Weiss—the longest I think I’ve ever seen—covers a huge range of topics, from the origins of their acquaintance to their current work on the unannounced season 5 (it’s happening, no need to wait for HBO to make it official). It’s insightful. Here’s an excerpt related to working from the template of a published series, and having the author on hand:

I read an interview with John Irving where he said he always knows the ending when he starts a book and he makes a beeline for it. I guess it helps center your brain.

Dan Weiss: It helps lend a sense of constructedness. Martin Amis always talked about the control tower. He talked about the reason he didnât like William S. Burroughsâwho I actually liked a fair bit once upon a timeâbut Amis didnât like William S. Burroughs because he would read his books and feel like there was no one in the control tower. One of the things that made Breaking Bad so powerful, for me, was Iâd never felt that somebody was more on the job, in the control tower, than on that show. Everything little thing I was seeing was there for a reason and would come back into play in some surprising but retroactively inevitable way, shape, or form.
Itâs an advantage to have the books. Even if you stray from them, you have a blueprint. You donât have to bend to the will of the fans, if they are screaming for something to happen. Youâve got George R. R. Martin.
David Benioff: Well, itâs a little complicated, because we have the five books, but then we donât have anything beyond that, because heâs still working. Itâs sort of an unusual position in terms of adaptation because, you know, weâre catching up. Itâll be interesting to see what happens. And weâve talked to George. The lucky part is that George works with us and heâs a producer on the show. Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with him and just talk through where things are going, because we donât know if we are going to catch up, and where exactly that would be. As you were saying before, if you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we sat just down with him and literally went through every character and said, âSo whatâs the destination for Daenerys? And Arya?â
Did you feel like he knew? Or was he figuring it out?
Dan Weiss: In some case he had very definite ideas, and in other cases he had left those story lines more open, for the time being.

There’s more to be found over at Vanity Fair, including a fascinating bit discussing the influence of Anthony Mann, Roman Polanski, Akira Kurosawa, and Andrei Tarkovsky on the visual style of Game of Thrones; getting to watch an original, well-preserved 35mm print of Ran would indeed be something special.



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I thought Martin had the endgame firmly in mind. Now it seems he still doesn't know how the story ends. That *is* a bit worrying.

i think they're talking about the characters, Martin said he knows how the storylines of Tyrion, Arya and Jon ends but not the others.

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Did you feel like he knew? Or was he figuring it out?

Dan Weiss: In some case he had very definite ideas, and in other cases he had left those story lines more open, for the time being.

Book 8 is coming. It is known.

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I'm not sure why the apparent surprise by some folks around here. If he knew where everyone was going definitively he would be a lot further along in writing the books. This is akin to proclaiming surprise when getting splashed with water that it is wet...


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Why is everyone so surprised? GRRM has been meandering/stalling for 2 books now. It should be blatantly obvious to readers that he's having difficulty getting this story to a satisfactory ending.


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Martin has for a good while noted that he doesn't necessarily have the fates of every character in detail in mind at this point. The major characters he knows, and those are really the only ones that matter in defining the end point. The others? Those will be organic. He'll have a battle scene and decide he should kill someone, look at the cast of characters present, and then decide, "Well, this one can die, and this one, and that one, but not this one, that one for sure dies later." And so on.



Doesn't really have anything to do with the speed of his writing. I suspect many of the characters, it's like, "Well, I don't know -- they can live or die, we'll see what happens as I guide characters X, Y, and Z to their fates."


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And remember that when you are talking about "major characters" in the books, you can easily list 30-40 different people. So Martin could know what happens with respect to the Starks, Lannisters, Dany, Brienne, Stannis, Davos, Mel, Aegon, Sam, the Hound, LF, the Boltons etc but isn't entirely sure what's going to happen with say Margaery, Barristan, Jorah, Mance, Myrcella, Loras, Varys, Illyrio, Tormund, Arianne, Val, Selyse, etc.



That's probably a byproduct of introducing so many freaking characters. You know who's going to impact the endgame but you've got a lot of other characters that you'll need to also address and decide how much they're involved, whether they live or die, whether they even play much of a role at all etc.


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'I'm not too worried. Also "We know there’s an end somewhere in the seven- or eight-season zone. It’s not something that goes ten, eleven—it doesn’t just keep on going because it can. I think the desire to milk more out of it is what would eventually kill it, if we gave in to that" means we could be getting 8 seasons (they're not married to 7), so people who were previously freaking out after the EW article saying it would definitely be 7 can relax a bit.


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And remember that when you are talking about "major characters" in the books, you can easily list 30-40 different people. So Martin could know what happens with respect to the Starks, Lannisters, Dany, Brienne, Stannis, Davos, Mel, Aegon, Sam, the Hound, LF, the Boltons etc but isn't entirely sure what's going to happen with say Margaery, Barristan, Jorah, Mance, Myrcella, Loras, Varys, Illyrio, Tormund, Arianne, Val, Selyse, etc.

That's probably a byproduct of introducing so many freaking characters. You know who's going to impact the endgame but you've got a lot of other characters that you'll need to also address and decide how much they're involved, whether they live or die, whether they even play much of a role at all etc.

except that the "secondary characters" you've named are in many cases instrumental to the plot. Myrcella is instrumental to the succession crisis, Dornish affairs, and Cersei's fate. If she lives for instance "the golden will be their shrouds" prophecy will not come to pass.

Jorah Mormont is instrumental to Dany's character arc, and Arianne is a POV character in her own right, as is Barristan.

Not entirely sure why you assume that LF's fate is known but Varys' isn't, but in any event, they are two of the major players in the Game of Thrones, perhaps the two biggest. I certainly hope and expect GRRM knows where he is going with these characters. I think the fate of characters like Ser Garlan Tyrell or Jason Mallister, for instance, is mostly irrelevant to the story and if we never see Tytos Blackwood or Jonos Bracken again, it won't be much of a loss - but I still think we will.

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except that the "secondary characters" you've named are in many cases instrumental to the plot. Myrcella is instrumental to the succession crisis, Dornish affairs, and Cersei's fate. If she lives for instance "the golden will be their shrouds" prophecy will not come to pass.

Jorah Mormont is instrumental to Dany's character arc, and Arianne is a POV character in her own right, as is Barristan.

Not entirely sure why you assume that LF's fate is known but Varys' isn't, but in any event, they are two of the major players in the Game of Thrones, perhaps the two biggest. I certainly hope and expect GRRM knows where he is going with these characters. I think the fate of characters like Ser Garlan Tyrell or Jason Mallister, for instance, is mostly irrelevant to the story and if we never see Tytos Blackwood or Jonos Bracken again, it won't be much of a loss - but I still think we will.

I'm just giving examples, not trying to sort out groups, only Martin knows that.

What I'm saying is that for the larger arc of the story, you don't need to know every single major character arc. For example, Martin could know exactly what happens with Dany and that Jorah helps her to get there in some way but maybe not the specifics of exactly how. Or maybe he knows that Barristan sacrifices himself for her along the way but not when and under what circumstances. So while he knows generally how many of his characters will interact and contribute to his endgame, he's going to have a much better idea about some more than others, who are have a more loose sketch at this moment. And really, this is exactly what D&D said in the interview. For most of the major characters, Martin can give them pretty good specifics on their arcs, whereas with others, it's a little more vague as in he knows the destination but not exactly how he's going to get them there. Or perhaps he just is unsure of some of their fates.

You're assuming that George has every single step mapped out and that's silly. Until he writes the books, he doesn't know exactly how every single detail will lock into place, that's just how writing works. But in terms of giving the "Wikipedia summary" of how the final 2 books will go, I'm sure he can provide that to D&D.

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This is what i've been saying to myself for a while now. The plot meanders around until he has an inspiration as to where to get his characters in the end. I don't think he has the entire thing mapped out in advance and so why should I give ADWD and AFFC a pass on worldbuilding alone? If he does not know how to get the plot forward in a meaningful and efficient way then I cannot praise him as a great writer because so far he gets by on creating morally grey characters alone but his prose does not impress me and the books have no real structure other than the POV-element. So far the good in ASOIAF (AGOT, ACOK, ASOS) outweighs the bad (AFFC, ADWD). I'm waiting how TWOW turns out but if it's just another piece of aimless worldbuilding I don't know if I can legitimately recommend the second half of the series to people. There are good bits here and there but overall, these last 2 books fail as books on their own and I don't judge the FeastDance reading because it's an excuse for people to not having to look the facts straight in the face: G.R.R. Martin has no overarching plan for the characters and the books are separated by 6 years, only to deliver the tiniest bit of story advancement. You could cut the last two books by a third and for the story it would not make any difference so I'll judge them individually. Yeah generally, not optimistic at this point.



Rant over now.


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I'm just giving examples, not trying to sort out groups, only Martin knows that.

What I'm saying is that for the larger arc of the story, you don't need to know every single major character arc. For example, Martin could know exactly what happens with Dany and that Jorah helps her to get there in some way but maybe not the specifics of exactly how. Or maybe he knows that Barristan sacrifices himself for her along the way but not when and under what circumstances. So while he knows generally how many of his characters will interact and contribute to his endgame, he's going to have a much better idea about some more than others, who are have a more loose sketch at this moment. And really, this is exactly what D&D said in the interview. For most of the major characters, Martin can give them pretty good specifics on their arcs, whereas with others, it's a little more vague as in he knows the destination but not exactly how he's going to get them there. Or perhaps he just is unsure of some of their fates.

You're assuming that George has every single step mapped out and that's silly. Until he writes the books, he doesn't know exactly how every single detail will lock into place, that's just how writing works. But in terms of giving the "Wikipedia summary" of how the final 2 books will go, I'm sure he can provide that to D&D.

And that's what worries me. Not because I'm surprised, but because it means b&w are going to have to fill in the gaps. I'm so conflicted about that, although I'm aware it's inevitable.

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And that's what worries me. Not because I'm surprised, but because it means b&w are going to have to fill in the gaps. I'm so conflicted about that, although I'm aware it's inevitable.

But remember that they're just writing S5 right now and won't be writing S6 for another year where I'm sure they'll come back to George again to ask him to fill in more gaps which he'll have by that point. It's a fluid thing that will flesh out as time goes on. It's not like they only have the information he gives them right now as the template until the end of the series. GRRM will be able to provide them with more info for future seasons as we get there.

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"You both have kids?


David Benioff: We each have kids."


I actually laughed at this aloud.


Very good interview. Too bad Jim Windolf conduces it from a show-only perspective. I know this couldn't be much different, as most people who read the magazine haven't read the book series either, but it would be nicer to have someone who's actually read them do the interview, we would get some more insight on their views on adaptation, etc.

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But remember that they're just writing S5 right now and won't be writing S6 for another year where I'm sure they'll come back to George again to ask him to fill in more gaps which he'll have by that point. It's a fluid thing that will flesh out as time goes on. It's not like they only have the information he gives them right now as the template until the end of the series. GRRM will be able to provide them with more info for future seasons as we get there.

That is true, but at the same time I think there are some things that would be blurry and undecided for grrm, until he actually writes them himself, and the show will definitely catch up way before then. We'll see, I guess.

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