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Bran and Bloodraven and aBomination


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#1 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 01:54 PM

Oddily enough, this isn't one of my favorite parts of the series but here goes my question?

 

I've always felt that there is something ominous and not on the up and up with the idea of Bran being stuck in that cave with Bloodraven.  I can't put my finger on it, I can't say that it won't serve some good purpose, but I can't get rid of the feeling that Bran needs to get the heck out of there eventually and may have to do so with some kind of force.  All those feelings are what has lead me to this question and I wonder if anyone has considered this idea or what they may think of it:

 

Is it possible that Bloodraven is training Bran with the eventual goal of stealing Bran's body for his second life, once his own is about to expire?  The more that Bloodraven trains Bran to use the skills, the better Bran's body would be for a second life for Bloodraven himself.  I find it hard to believe that Bloodraven isn't aware of Bran's warging of Hodor, and on rereads I always wonder why (if he does know) nothing is said.  All it might take is one opportunity of Bran walking around in Hodor's skin, and WHAMMO......Bloodraven steals Bran's body and unlike Varymr's concern's, Bloodraven has a second life and the chance to still be a skilled skinchanger, if not even more skilled than previously. 

 

I'm am just mighty suspicious of Bloodraven's endgame, and unfortunately, this idea sprung in my mind during my last reread.  Perhaps the reason for the Varymr prologue was to warn us of this possiblity?


Edited by Lady Fevre Dream, 25 March 2014 - 01:55 PM.


#2 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:06 PM

Is it possible that Bloodraven is training Bran with the eventual goal of stealing Bran's body for his second life, once his own is about to expire? 

I'm just mighty suspicious of Bloodraven's endgame

 

On the one hand that'd be hot, but it'd make Bloodraven look like a really bad shopper.  To get stuck with a crippled replacement body like that when he could have reeled in a healthy person, BR would be the laughing stock of the sentient tree community.    

 

Bran gambled on this weirdness, now he's got to own it.  Even if it's weird.  Because trapsing after a vision of a crow is a weird starting point, so you can't expect normalcy to flow from that.  He's got to give up the normal to stay congruent with his earlier choice to go weird.  So we shouldn't feel guilty or ugie about his predicament.  When he gets doubts and tries to back out of the cave, we need to be there to shove him back in for his own good.   It's like those people who are signing up to go on that one way mission to Mars that might even happen some day.  They're willing to give up their normal lives because the opportunity is just soooooooo unique that it's worth it to them.  I think that's the gambit Bran's made, and the potential to fly should make it worth his trouble.



#3 Metopheles

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:10 PM

I think Bloodraven is that kind of character that looks so terrifying and evil but is actually good.

I think Bloodraven will die and live as the tree or something and Bran will simply also become a treehuman. 

I think Bloodraven wants to die. Someone who has lived so long and seen everything..what would it really serve him warging into a cripple. If, he would rather warg into Meera or hodor.

Bloodraven has shown no cruel intent or anything that would hint evil schemes. If he truly is the Targaryen bastard, who fought then for the good, why not now ? He has seen the death and ruin of all he held dear, he may go on and lead to the death of Stannis and the remaining "usurper's dogs" and help Daenerys and Visenion(Jon) to the throne, but no evil endgame.

 

Jack Sparrow: What? You've seen it all, done it all. Survived. That's the trick isn't it? To survive?

Captain Teague: It's not just about living forever, Jackie. The trick is still living with yourself forever.

 

I think he may be the wise super character in the series who looks down upon life and simply wants to rest.



#4 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:11 PM

I don't know, a body that could still warg compared with death.....that's why I wonder about it.  A man on the verge of death might not look on a crippled body that can warg as a deficit.  It's mostly my 'bad' feeling that lead me to this question.  Reading Bran's POVs in that cave feel like a horror novel, full throttle, kind of like the Red Wedding.  I usually am looking at Varymr's wolves for any of the trouble and the mixed up warging mess, but this reread......it finally dawned on me that the bad feeling might be Bloodraven being the body thief.  Tale of The Body Thief Take Two, Anne Rice might want payment, though. 



#5 Leonardo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:13 PM

Well you have to first ask yourself if you ever liked Bloodraven; because outcome 2 of this is the Bran becomes him.

 

BR is arguably one of my favorite characters from D&E, and I legitimately feel he only wants to do his duty to his house/s. 

 

However, he seems to have some pretty vindictive methods of getting those duties done, so he's not an honorable man by any means and will probably ask the same of Bran if he's not just passing on his knowledge.



#6 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

Well you have to first ask yourself if you ever liked Bloodraven; because outcome 2 of this is the Bran becomes him.

 

BR is arguably one of my favorite characters from D&E, and I legitimately feel he only wants to do his duty to his house/s. 

 

However, he seems to have some pretty vindictive methods of getting those duties done, so he's not an honorable man by any means and will probably ask the same of Bran if he's not just passing on his knowledge.

 

I have to admit, I haven't read any D&E yet.  I've seen some basic character summaries, and I do understand Bloodraven is a big character in them, hard to figure out on the total honor front and very popular, etc.  Still, iirc, we're not sure exacly why he was sent to The Wall, are we?  Plus, all that happened under his watch there, right?  I could even see, perhaps, Bloodraven thinking it might be his duty to take Bran, eventually.  The conflict of doing so would be interesting, too.  "The Greater Good vs Bran's life and consciousness?"

 

It's always been Varymr I had funny feelings about, well, his wolves lingering around Summer and the cave.  But, now for me, it's Bloodraven I worry about as the warging wild card.  But, you make a good point, it could be the other way around, although.....doesn't BR and the CotF admit that BR's time is drawing to an end?  What would Bran gain from wanting to swap into BR's body?  I can't see the benefit there, I guess that's why I didn't truly consider it in that direction. 

 

For me, too, it's not about even whether I like (or will like once I do finally read D&E) Bloodraven or Bran or whoever, it's more about the creepiness of someone who may have lived that long and for some reason.....taking a young boy's life for his own use.  Whether that use is for 'the greater good' or not. 



#7 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:26 PM

I think Bloodraven is that kind of character that looks so terrifying and evil but is actually good.

I think Bloodraven will die and live as the tree or something and Bran will simply also become a treehuman. 

I think Bloodraven wants to die. Someone who has lived so long and seen everything..what would it really serve him warging into a cripple. If, he would rather warg into Meera or hodor.

Bloodraven has shown no cruel intent or anything that would hint evil schemes. If he truly is the Targaryen bastard, who fought then for the good, why not now ? He has seen the death and ruin of all he held dear, he may go on and lead to the death of Stannis and the remaining "usurper's dogs" and help Daenerys and Visenion(Jon) to the throne, but no evil endgame.

 

Jack Sparrow: What? You've seen it all, done it all. Survived. That's the trick isn't it? To survive?

Captain Teague: It's not just about living forever, Jackie. The trick is still living with yourself forever.

 

I think he may be the wise super character in the series who looks down upon life and simply wants to rest.

 

Bestill my heart, some Cap'n Sparrow.  :wub:

 

Still, I worry because I could see BR thinking it might be necessary to take Bran's body, somehow.  I think if he thought it was for the whole realm he, as Teague says, could still live with it. 



#8 Leonardo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:35 PM

 

I have to admit, I haven't read any D&E yet.  I've seen some basic character summaries, and I do understand Bloodraven is a big character in them, hard to figure out on the total honor front and very popular, etc.  Still, iirc, we're not sure exacly why he was sent to The Wall, are we?  Plus, all that happened under his watch there, right?  I could even see, perhaps, Bloodraven thinking it might be his duty to take Bran, eventually.  The conflict of doing so would be interesting, too.  "The Greater Good vs Bran's life and consciousness?"

 

It's always been Varymr I had funny feelings about, well, his wolves lingering around Summer and the cave.  But, now for me, it's Bloodraven I worry about as the warging wild card.  But, you make a good point, it could be the other way around, although.....doesn't BR and the CotF admit that BR's time is drawing to an end?  What would Bran gain from wanting to swap into BR's body?  I can't see the benefit there, I guess that's why I didn't truly consider it in that direction. 

 

For me, too, it's not about even whether I like (or will like once I do finally read D&E) Bloodraven or Bran or whoever, it's more about the creepiness of someone who may have lived that long and for some reason.....taking a young boy's life for his own use.  Whether that use is for 'the greater good' or not. 

 

We have some good ideas.

 

The next king after Aerys I, Egg's father, Maekar, had him thrown in the dungeons because Bloodraven was picked over him for the job of Hand. His reign is marked by watching for the greater threat of Blackfyre rebellions, which were still a huge problem at the time because Aerys was a pretty ineffective king and it would be easy for the people to rally around someone else. 

 

After Aerys dies, Maekar takes the job and chucks him into the dungeons. For what, we don't quite know as he served House Targaryen pretty faithfully, so unless Maekar REALLY carries a grudge (which I don't think he does to the extreme enough to chuck BR in the dungeons for it) that means BR was doing something shady or appeared to be shady. I reckon he was suspected of killing Aerys or something.

 

Note Maekar's death is a bit suspicious as well, getting put down by some rebel lord.

 

He gets released by Egg when he inherits 12 or so years later and is part of the honor guard sent to the wall with Aemon. I don't think the wall was really punishment for anything, or it was just lingering distaste Egg had from his father's prejudices or suspicions. 

 

Some spoilers ahead, but not major.

 

If you read the stories (you should as they're short and reaaaallly good) you may get different impressions from what others think; BR was quite cordial to Dunk imo while others think he was being a bit shifty because he didn't simply fawn over him. He treats Egg just as well. He comes across a bit like Tywin, but with hidden claws and a kinder and more patient matter, though still prudent and ruthlessly effective.

 

He then sends them on their way with whatever they want even though it would be in his best interest to take Egg back to court with him.

 

Bloodraven isn't really a huge character until the 3rd one, and doesn't really exist in the 1st.

 

I think Bloodraven is tired at this point. He must be nearing 200 years or so in age as he is a decent chunk older than Aemon.

 

He definitely has a mission he wants Bran to do. This is not simply a passing on of knowledge, or doesn't seem to be. I also agree it all reads like a horror novel.

 

Then again maybe it's the will of the Old Gods. Hell that may not even be Bloodraven doing all this hehe


Edited by Leonardo, 25 March 2014 - 02:38 PM.


#9 Metopheles

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:36 PM

 

Bestill my heart, some Cap'n Sparrow.  :wub:

 

Still, I worry because I could see BR thinking it might be necessary to take Bran's body, somehow.  I think if he thought it was for the whole realm he, as Teague says, could still live with it. 

But would he want it ? Wouldn't it be a hollow life ? He lives forever and literally writes his own history as he can force all people to do as he wants. I think the only reason he is still alive, why he surgically moved himself into a weir(d)wood..is that he saw some prophecy or rather saw what will be. He could only be alive for the purpose of one significant moment where he would be needed and then he would go.

 

Cap'n Teague all the way  :fencing:



#10 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:40 PM

Ughhhhhhhhh, the way this forum jams up with errors. Thank you everyone for the answers, I'm working on reading them and will answer again soon. As I said, this isn't one of my absolute favorite stories in the books, but that nagging feeling of something of 'wrongness' in that cave and the entire situation never leaves me. I remember discussing it in other threads before, the strange feeling about something not quite right in the caves, but this new idea came to me on the last reread and I hadn't really noticed it ever brought up before. I just wanted to thank everyone so far for giving it some thought along with me. Between the board jamming up with 'error, try again later,' and finally having to get to 'real life' soon, it make take a little while but I will read an try and answer the posts. I also wanted to point out, I'm not saying this is a 100% theory or that it's a definate plan of BR's, not right now, anyway. It could be, but it could also become something BR thinks he may have to do, for the realm, if Bran's learning curve isn't fast enough for BRs liking. That's, of course, giving BR credit for not just wanting to do it in the long run for selfish reasons. I'm just wondering if there was a reason Varymr pointed out that a second life, even as Thistle, wouldn't have let him continue as a warg or skinchanger. That means, for some reason, they think the spirit isn't enough, they/Varymr think the body/a body born with the warging skills must matter, I would think, anyway.

 

(sorry, my copying skills on this forum suck, there were paragraphs there, LOL.  I'm just worn out and running out of time with fighting the "error' on this forum)  Ughhhhhhhhhhh

 

ETA:  Not sure how I bolded that, either.  :leaving:


Edited by Lady Fevre Dream, 25 March 2014 - 03:41 PM.


#11 Metopheles

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:45 PM

Ughhhhhhhhh, the way this forum jams up with errors. 

 

I have the same problem .. thought I was the only one :D

yeeehhh League of Errors, or better, leagues of errors.

 

I think the most creepy thing and wrong thing going on in that cave is the warging.. seriously that is like the last thing I would want to have in our world. No one gets in my head..please, Mr. Bloodraven?

 

plus : Lady Fevre Dream, the bold ;)



#12 Frey family reunion

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:49 PM

I don't see what's suspicious at all about a guy well over a hundred years old luring a small child into his cave and feeding him a strange paste, while telling him to open up his special "eye". 

 

But seriously, I've had the same thought as well.  Or if you want to get really weird about it (as if it's not strange enough) what if Bloodraven was lured into the cave by someone else, someone even older, who did the same thing to him and now he's ready to move on to someone younger and potentially more powerful.



#13 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:49 PM

 

I have the same problem .. thought I was the only one :D

yeeehhh League of Errors, or better, leagues of errors.

 

I think the most creepy thing and wrong thing going on in that cave is the warging.. seriously that is like the last thing I would want to have in our world. No one gets in my head..please, Mr. Bloodraven?

 

plus : Lady Fevre Dream, the bold ;)

 

At this point, maybe I should.  :lmao:



#14 Kienn

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:01 PM

I'm just wondering if there was a reason Varymr pointed out that a second life, even as Thistle, wouldn't have let him continue as a warg or skinchanger. That means, for some reason, they think the spirit isn't enough, they/Varymr think the body/a body born with the warging skills must matter, I would think, anyway.


Personally I'm leaning towards it being the opposite, Varamyr is drawing attention to the truth by stating the misconception.

Think about this:

Bloodraven says all the ravens(100s of them in and around the cave) have children in them - from when Bran felt "someone" inside the raven he flew.

Bloodraven says only 1 in a 1000 can become a skinchanger.

There's supposedly only a few score(60-80) children left. They've been dying out slowly, indicating say 50 years ago there would have only been a few more, say double to be on the safe side so 160.

So of those 160 living children 50 years ago maybe 1 or 2 were skinchangers if lucky... So how exactly do hundreds of ravens(who must live much shorter lives) have children inside?

The only explanations I can think of are that the skinchangers from all the past thousands of years have been going from raven to raven for eternity...

Or

Bloodraven and/or Leaf are lying about how many children there are and how common their gift is.

#15 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:36 PM

Personally I'm leaning towards it being the opposite, Varamyr is drawing attention to the truth by stating the misconception.

Think about this:

Bloodraven says all the ravens(100s of them in and around the cave) have children in them - from when Bran felt "someone" inside the raven he flew.

Bloodraven says only 1 in a 1000 can become a skinchanger.

There's supposedly only a few score(60-80) children left. They've been dying out slowly, indicating say 50 years ago there would have only been a few more, say double to be on the safe side so 160.

So of those 160 living children 50 years ago maybe 1 or 2 were skinchangers if lucky... So how exactly do hundreds of ravens(who must live much shorter lives) have children inside?

The only explanations I can think of are that the skinchangers from all the past thousands of years have been going from raven to raven for eternity...

Or

Bloodraven and/or Leaf are lying about how many children there are and how common their gift is.

 

You've pointed out one of the other things I really tried to pay attention to on the last reread, not to mention, tried to do the math on with the ravens and the children.  That also leads me to the other idea that was stewing in my mind, if not Bloodraven being the one to be up to something sneakily.......perhaps the children themselves.  There is just something not right going on, with the math and the presence that Bran feels inside the ravens, etc.  Something isn't adding up somewhere.  I'm actually suspicious of both Bloodraven and the children, or at least....some of the children.  That's not to say there couldn't be a short term purpose that they, or some of them BR included, want or need Bran for, but that still doesn't rule out something fishy going on in the long term. 


Edited by Lady Fevre Dream, 25 March 2014 - 04:38 PM.


#16 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:40 PM

I don't see what's suspicious at all about a guy well over a hundred years old luring a small child into his cave and feeding him a strange paste, while telling him to open up his special "eye". 

 

But seriously, I've had the same thought as well.  Or if you want to get really weird about it (as if it's not strange enough) what if Bloodraven was lured into the cave by someone else, someone even older, who did the same thing to him and now he's ready to move on to someone younger and potentially more powerful.

 

Okay, adding the bit about an old man luring a small child to his cave and all has really upped the creep factor by at least ten, put that way.  You deserve points for that alone.  :bowdown:

 

Your post does lead me back to the other children entrhoned with the trees and how they almost seemed to be hidden from Bran and co.  I'm not so sure I believe BR was straight with Bran when asked about them. 



#17 Fanless Mace

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:43 PM

There is a mystery about Bloodraven that is the key to figuring out whether the OP is on the right track. We know the BR was a Targ bastard, a sorcerer of some powerful sort, and a commander of the NW. In fact, we know a lot about him...except...how did he end up NOT being lord Commander of the KW? How did he end up in the cave?

When we know that important story (and I think we will, and perhaps soon on the next book), we will know more about his objectives and honor. But it's such an obvious omission of his bio to know why and under what circumstances he left his lord commander post, that I can only imagine it will be revealed, and it will reveal deep truths about the big What's Going On picture.

#18 Leonardo

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:47 PM

 

You've pointed out one of the other things I really tried to pay attention to on the last reread, not to mention, tried to do the math on with the ravens and the children.  That also leads me to the other idea that was stewing in my mind, if not Bloodraven being the one to be up to something sneakily.......perhaps the children themselves.  There is just something not right going on, with the math and the presence that Bran feels inside the ravens, etc.  Something isn't adding up somewhere.  I'm actually suspicious of both Bloodraven and the children, or at least....some of the children.  That's not to say there couldn't be a short term purpose that they, or some of them BR included, want or need Bran for, but that still doesn't rule out something fishy going on in the long term. 

 

From the moment the children appeared they looked pretty sinister to me, rather than some fairy creatures of lore. I mean they used to go to war hard core

 

They definitely have a goal. I don't think they have the numbers for another Hammer of the Waters, and this may have been the problem when they tried to do it with the North.

 

But seriously, I've had the same thought as well.  Or if you want to get really weird about it (as if it's not strange enough) what if Bloodraven was lured into the cave by someone else, someone even older, who did the same thing to him and now he's ready to move on to someone younger and potentially more powerful.

 

Pretty scary idea haha. Also the thing about the Ravens is interesting

 

I think when they said 1 in 1000 they were talking about First Men/People who have the blood rather than the Children themselves, who I imagine are far more apt with this kind of thing usually.



#19 Kienn

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:48 PM

 
You've pointed out one of the other things I really tried to pay attention to on the last reread, not to mention, tried to do the math on with the ravens and the children.  That also leads me to the other idea that was stewing in my mind, if not Bloodraven being the one to be up to something sneakily.......perhaps the children themselves.  There is just something not right going on, with the math and the presence that Bran feels inside the ravens, etc.  Something isn't adding up somewhere.  I'm actually suspicious of both Bloodraven and the children, or at least....some of the children.  That's not to say there couldn't be a short term purpose that they, or some of them BR included, want or need Bran for, but that still doesn't rule out something fishy going on in the long term. 

Definitely agree, I'm also suspicious of the dead(?) cotf Bran sees in the caves as Hodor - it seems to be dead but looks at him and even tries to speak...

I'm still trying to figure out the connections between the cotf and the "Others".

Again consider this...

The reed oath possibly mirroring the "Pact"

Earth and water (perhaps the cotf - "Those who sing the song of earth" and use the Hammer of the Waters(Arm of Dorne, the Neck))

Bronze and Iron (Men)

Ice and Fire (Those who sing the song of ice? (And use the hammer of fire?(doom, hardhome, summerhall...))

I still think the name "Others" must be used in conjunction or opposition of something else. Could it be a faction of cotf that sing a different song, who skinchange into the very essence of Ice?

Idk... Still need more infos.

Edited by Kienn, 25 March 2014 - 04:51 PM.


#20 Lady Fevre Dream

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

There is a mystery about Bloodraven that is the key to figuring out whether the OP is on the right track. We know the BR was a Targ bastard, a sorcerer of some powerful sort, and a commander of the NW. In fact, we know a lot about him...except...how did he end up NOT being lord Commander of the KW? How did he end up in the cave?

When we know that important story (and I think we will, and perhaps soon on the next book), we will know more about his objectives and honor. But it's such an obvious omission of his bio to know why and under what circumstances he left his lord commander post, that I can only imagine it will be revealed, and it will reveal deep truths about the big What's Going On picture.

 

See, I haven't even read D&E yet (keep meaning to get around to ordering them) and you've pointed out all the things I already know and can grasp about BR just from the little bit of research I've done here and around the net.  The mystery of BR can't, for now, really even be solved by my knowing him any better once I read those stories, it seems.