Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Don't warg at all... And I highly doubt that the Stark wolves are so crazy about being warged. I think they might be less likely to block their wargs, but I think this might stem from being loyal and blind in following. Maybe like a need and desire for leadership and being subjugated by a pack leader. An alpha male.. I don't know, I think warging isn't the prime of humane (whatever the definition of that word) treatment of anything. Super weapons, super tools, super methods, the atom bomb, internet spying, these are all great things to use, super things, but use them responsible. And the most responsible way of using them, is to not use them. It's like the lion tamer. It is amazing that it works, but the animal might object. If you want the animal do something, let it do it on its own will, not because you force it. That's not special. so philosophical. -.- I guess this has to be done, to fit the genre and the story. warging the trees, do it.. but humans..dragons...at least not the dragons. They belong to the Targaryens. They belong to their mother, not anyone else. I get that in this forum, and all the fans love it, I am uncertain about it. Plus, think about it... isn't it such a plot gift, deus ex machina ? Literally everything can now be forced by Bran, He can literally write history. .. So we're talking about the ethics of a fantasy magic power from a real-world perspective. Ok. Interestingly, from the wolf POV chapters, I don't recall any mention of them having knowledge of being warged, or having any problem with the arrangement. I get the argument against person warging, it's supposed to be a big no-no. But I could see a character who knows that doing it anyway for what he might think is the greater good. As of yet no one has told Bran that it's against the rules to do that. I wouldn't say everything can be forced by Bran or that he can write history. There are limits to all of the powers in this storyworld, and Bran is a beginner. Even if he reaches, or surpasses Bloodraven's level that doesn't mean he can control things or change them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 So we're talking about the ethics of a fantasy magic power from a real-world perspective. Ok. Interestingly, from the wolf POV chapters, I don't recall any mention of them having knowledge of being warged, or having any problem with the arrangement. I get the argument against person warging, it's supposed to be a big no-no. But I could see a character who knows that doing it anyway for what he might think is the greater good. As of yet no one has told Bran that it's against the rules to do that. I love how you completely missed my point. And we do not have wolf povs.. And the Varamyr and Bran chapters clearly stated that the warged never likes it really. The Stark wolves seem to be an exception. Likely because of blind loyalty and "will to submission". But Hodor doesn't like it at all. Nor do the animals of Varamyr. Even Orell inside the eagle was afraid of Varamyr entering. And this series gets all the time tested on ethics. why not this ? The series itself is all about ethics and change of values and morals. This is like the message of the series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 I love how you completely missed my point. And we do not have wolf povs.. And the Varamyr and Bran chapters clearly stated that the warged never likes it really. The Stark wolves seem to be an exception. Likely because of blind loyalty and "will to submission". But Hodor doesn't like it at all. Nor do the animals of Varamyr. Even Orell inside the eagle was afraid of Varamyr entering. And this series gets all the time tested on ethics. why not this ? The series itself is all about ethics and change of values and morals. This is like the message of the series We do have POVs of Summer's thoughts while Bran is there with him. Varamyr admits that most of his animals hate him, he never said such things about his dogs, or his wolves, it's the other animals that don't like him and can ya blame them, Varamyr is not only small in stature, he was even smaller on the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 We also have Jon and Arya both sensing their wolves thoughts, Nymeria finding Cat's body comes to mind. But alas, a girl again is out of time. I'm going to get to really combing this thread good one of these days, LOL, I SWEAR!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 We also have Jon and Arya both sensing their wolves thoughts We do have POVs of Summer's thoughts while Bran is there with him. Varamyr admits that most of his animals hate him, he never said such things about his dogs, or his wolves But thoughts is not what I consider POV. They smell the same things, they are in the wolf, but not really like a conversation. I do think that canine animals might like it more due to the will to submission and search for a pack leader.. Still.. anyone who has cats.. they might look like they want you to rub their belly and purr, but in the next second they draw their claws inside your fingers. Maybe the wolves accept it now, but once they see a moment of weakness, you know, they smell that, and canines hate weakness, they might jump on them. Perhaps this is the greatest danger. They believe they control the animal, believe the animal loves them, but actually face death and don't know it. Still, mine is all crackpot and pure speculation and a macabre thought that this would be good writing ;) Then again, grrm writes these books :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 But thoughts is not what I consider POV. They smell the same things, they are in the wolf, but not really like a conversation. I do think that canine animals might like it more due to the will to submission and search for a pack leader.. Still.. anyone who has cats.. they might look like they want you to rub their belly and purr, but in the next second they draw their claws inside your fingers. Maybe the wolves accept it now, but once they see a moment of weakness, you know, they smell that, and canines hate weakness, they might jump on them. Perhaps this is the greatest danger. They believe they control the animal, believe the animal loves them, but actually face death and don't know it. Still, mine is all crackpot and pure speculation and a macabre thought that this would be good writing ;) Then again, grrm writes these books :D If alot of the thoughts were a human's, they'd be worded differently. The wolves show up in Stark and Snow POVs because they are part of each other, not because it's an invading abomination of each other. You can state that you don't consider it to be POV, but I'd be more interested in what GRRM would call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 huh ? Did I what ? I never said so. I agreed to the part that BR is just what he seems, an eternally old guy, benevolent and good at heart (except for the warging craziness who I can't live with) who wants to die.The other poster you replied to referred to him as the Old god, you agreed that's why I pointed out no gods. Not to say they don't exist, maybe they do, we just are not going to see them and we have seen the Bloodraven. I remain at a crossroads with Bloodraven myself, or his purpose at least but find him really interesting. That said, don't trust him, not for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 If alot of the thoughts were a human's, they'd be worded differently. The wolves show up in Stark and Snow POVs because they are part of each other, not because it's an invading abomination of each other. You can state that you don't consider it to be POV, but I'd be more interested in what GRRM would call it. GRRM calls it a POV. He's talked about how hard it is to write from the perspective of the wolves. Metopheles, I don't really care that a lot of people are applying real-world ethics to the series because I'm not one of the people doing that. And I didn't miss your point, I was just ignoring it. Varamyr is a rotten example. No creature would be ok with being warged by him. Animals are excellent judges of human character and the animals in this series do not like Varamyr. I hope GRRM gives us some more wargs in the next books for purposes of comparison. So far we have Starks=good guy wargs, Varamyr=bad guy warg, and nobody knows where Bloodraven is in the good to bad scale. That's hardly enough to judge the overall effects of the activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 GRRM calls it a POV. He's talked about how hard it is to write from the perspective of the wolves. Metopheles, I don't really care that a lot of people are applying real-world ethics to the series because I'm not one of the people doing that. And I didn't miss your point, I was just ignoring it. Varamyr is a rotten example. No creature would be ok with being warged by him. Animals are excellent judges of human character and the animals in this series do not like Varamyr. I hope GRRM gives us some more wargs in the next books for purposes of comparison. So far we have Starks=good guy wargs, Varamyr=bad guy warg, and nobody knows where Bloodraven is in the good to bad scale. That's hardly enough to judge the overall effects of the activity. Thank you for the GRRM info. I knew I had read something about him saying exactly what you posted about him writing from a wolf's POV. I also tried to make the point to another poster that you are making about Varamyr, and you said it much better. Truly, his animals, and his own POV do tell us what a piece of human trash he is, I'm surprised his wolves put up with him as much as they do. I'm still catching up this morning, just wanted to thank you. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy the Keen Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Does that mean BR tricked Jojen as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Does that mean BR tricked Jojen as well? You'd have to be more specific. And, to be clear, I'm not sure about others.........but I'm just putting forth some ideas. Actually, a few different competing ideas throughout the thread. I'm not saying "This Is This," I'm not GRRM and I don't presume to "KNOW." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kennedy the Keen Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Sorry, what I was saying is maybe BR could have sent the dreams where jojen had to help and find bran and they weren't really green dreams just BR using some kind of magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Sorry, what I was saying is maybe BR could have sent the dreams where jojen had to help and find bran and they weren't really green dreams just BR using some kind of magic. See for me, I'm not even sure, LOL But, you're post also makes me realize......I wonder if that is part of what is wrong with Jojen during his last appearances. Maybe he is starting to suspect that something is wrong, there is a trick here. I do think that Bran being there, for a time, may be important, it's the long run that I worry about. I think it's possible that BR, or the children, could be distracting Bran and company. I do highly suspect Bran can serve a good purpose in the coming troubles and that BR can use his desire to be a knight against him. I just fear that in the longrun, either BR or the children might turn on Bran, either out of greed for a new warging life (BR), a deeper plot (children or BR), or even because they (BR or the children) might think it's for the best. I suppose you could say if there is something to these ideas that yes, Jojen was used or tricked in some manner. The short term goal of helping Bran can be used to hide the longer term plans of those who might seek to subvert or steal his abilities. I wonder, though, if Jojen's greendreams are their own thing, and not sent by BR. But, the goal of helping Bran could be subverted for a long term plan. I know many think that Jojen's growing distance, for want of a better term, might be because the day of his death is coming, but maybe.......Jojen had another green dream? Maybe BR can't influence Jojen's visions, and that may be a problem upcoming. I just always thought and worried about Varamyr's wolves outside and all the wargs in the vicinity, like Bran and BR. It just finally dawned on me that, in the long run, perhaps I should ignore those wargable wolves of Varamyr's, and wonder what BR is really up to himself, or what could go wrong between him and BR and the children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I just keep remembering that old blood magic lore, "a life for a life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 And I didn't miss your point, I was just ignoring it. Well.. Thank you! perfect for a good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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