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Daenerys as a "Villain" Appreciation 2.0, with new take


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#1 LordStoneheart

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:48 PM

As the other thread grew very very long, I thought I'd start it up again. Here's the original.

 

A few notes:

 

1. This is a not a Stannis vs Dany thread no matter what you think of either characters. They're both power-hungry burners. Take this discussion elsewhere. 

2. This is not solely a "lets praise Dany" thread either, so criticisms are still welcome but I'd rather not veer into hate territory.

3. I must stress again that I personally do not consider Daenerys Targaryen a villain in any sense of that word, modern or classical. I consider her a flawed heroine with dark potential, otherwise known as "human.

 

So last time I thought the discussion might bring about people who are rooting for Daenerys' conquest of Westeros to be successful. Its often brought up by certain posters that Dany will stop being seeing positively at all once she gets there and starts fighting against characters we like. Well, to me, there's only three POVs I actually root for to be successful, Arya, Jon, and Sansa. Not that Dany couldn't go against them since she's currently ignorant to the real Stark side of the War of the Usurper, but they currently seem so disconnected from King's Landing that I don't take them into account.

In central Westeros, we have Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, the Tyrells, Martells, Greyjoys, Riverlands... Dany wants the Iron Throne, so I doubt she'll head north first. 

What I am rooting for is Dany to take over and rid the Lannisters/Baratheons/Tyrells from power. Will it be deadly? Yes. Will it kill some characters I like? Probably. But I honestly want to see the dragons and Unsullied to just wreck havoc on this kingdom. It's not like these armies haven't done it to themselves already, and there's no one in south besides Sansa I enjoy. So, let Fire and Blood reign in Westeros again. That's what I want to see, and if this is villainous, then well, shucks, I'm rooting for the villain. 

 

So maybe a few more questions to consider:

 

1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros?

2. Why or why not is it villainous?

3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do? (I don't include smallfolk because each faction has disregarded them as pawns, so they're all guilty of it)

 

Carry on. 

 

EDIT/NOTE: I know the 163 slavers thing is what people love to jump on, but this is one of the things that I like that she did. They're Ghiscari. They're cartoon villains. No sympathy for slavers. The conversation is more about Westeros, not SB. 


Edited by LordStoneheart, 26 March 2014 - 04:54 PM.


#2 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:59 PM

I don't support Dany's conquest mostly because I'm not interested in seeing a restoration of the Targaryen dynasty.  I would find it "villainous" in regards to how far she has to go with the whole Fire and Blood thing to get what she wants.



#3 El Guapo

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:04 PM

I absolutely 100% support Daenerys in her desire to conquest Westeros.

 

No, I do not think it is a villanous at all. I think she has every right to claim her birthright.

 

No, the other noble families do not have my sympathy at all.



#4 Mad Monkey

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:11 PM

1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros?
2. Why or why not is it villainous?
3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do? (I don't include smallfolk because each faction has disregarded them as pawns, so they're all guilty of it)


I'm actually in a (possibly unusual position?) in that I don't really care who wins the Iron Throne in the end? I enjoy the game of thrones storyline and I have some favorites in individual bouts (I was rooting for Robb in the Riverlands, Renly in the South, Stannis on the Blackwater) but I honestly would not mind if Dany won, or Aegon won, or Stannis won. I don't really want Cersei to still be on the Iron Throne at the end but I could live with her being alive in some tower cell if it meant that Myrcella and Tommen would still be alive.

That being said, I don't think that Dany's conquest is inherently villainous. Her family may have 'lost' its claim to the throne in the past war but that doesn't mean it's inherently wrong for her to want to reclaim it, any more than it was inherently wrong for Robb to want to break the North's submission to the Iron Throne and reestablish an independent kingdom.

As far as the other noble families, it's really up to the individual, isn't it? I like the Tyrells, I like the Baratheons, etc. I'm not sure if your assertion (that you can't condemn Dany ravaging the smallfolk because other people do it too) is completely rational though. I hate Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch for what they did to the peasants in the Arya chapters in ACOK and I disagreed with the Northmen's use of the Brave Companions to harry the Westerlands and scour the Riverlands, most of whom were stated to be people who cooperated with the Brave Companions earlier in a desperate attempt to survive and avoid being murdered, raped, and plundered. I'm not sure why it would be wrong for me also to be unhappy at the idea of Dany killing even more innocent people whose only crime is still being alive after the War of the Five Kings. Does this by itself make Dany a villain? Not to me, but I can see why people wouldn't enjoy reading about more butchers like Gregor and Vargo and Amory.

#5 Dany Girl

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:11 PM

1 - absolutely I support her.
2 - nope, not villainous
3 - don't really care which of the nobles die, they've all been killing smallfolk left and right, raping and pillaging, sacking cities. So no, I don't care if it happens to them.


I'd add that the only people Dany will kill are the ones that stand in her way. So if they're fighting Dany, then they're as much an antagonist as Dany is.

I don't see Dany just randomly killing people, even the children of the "usurper's dogs". If they fight her, then she pretty much has the right to kill them. But innocent people like Joy Hill who have never had anything to do with the conflict and will likely not be involved do not have anything to worry about. I don't see Dany destroying any family root and stem, that was Tywin's game. Dany has already shown leniency and kindness to the families that opposed her, like her refusal to kill her child hostages.

#6 Don Roberto

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:14 PM

1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros?

Not really support, as I don't cheer for her, but I do wanna see her conquer at least part of Westeros and sit the Iron Throne sometime, even if she won't linger there for the rest of the story.

 

2. Why or why not is it villainous?

Villain is a tricky word, and the difference between one and a non-villain (or hero) is usually a matter of perspective. Having said that, I do believe she means well, but she's also fickle and short-tempered, not a good combination when one has power and dragons.

 

3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do?

No family has my entire sympathy, and I don't really cheer for any in particular, though I'm somewhat biased towards the remaining Starks for obvious reasons. In the end, the entire system is at fault, no one family should prevail over the others.



#7 LordStoneheart

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:15 PM

As far as the other noble families, it's really up to the individual, isn't it? I like the Tyrells, I like the Baratheons, etc. I'm not sure if your assertion (that you can't condemn Dany ravaging the smallfolk because other people do it too) is completely rational though. I hate Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch for what they did to the peasants in the Arya chapters in ACOK and I disagreed with the Northmen's use of the Brave Companions to harry the Westerlands and scour the Riverlands, most of whom were stated to be people who cooperated with the Brave Companions earlier in a desperate attempt to survive and avoid being murdered, raped, and plundered. I'm not sure why it would be wrong for me also to be unhappy at the idea of Dany killing even more innocent people whose only crime is still being alive after the War of the Five Kings. Does this by itself make Dany a villain? Not to me, but I can see why people wouldn't enjoy reading about more butchers like Gregor and Vargo and Amory.

 

Yes, perhaps I could have phrased it better. I'm not saying Dany can't be condemned for this. I'm saying that if she does its not any more evil than Tywin, Robb, Stannis, or any other commander who have brought war to Westeros. 



#8 Metopheles

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:15 PM

I am absolutely dedicated to the mother of dragons and must say, the Starks are as involved in the war of the usurper as the Tullys and Baratheons and Arryns, though I do not directly believe in inherited sin. But destroying House Lannister, the least involved, and keeping House Stark, the second most involved...can't go with that. House Lorch and Gregor Clegane had to go, which already happened, so did Tywin Lannister. Sin gone.

Important is, the Seven Kingdoms could not exist flawlessly without House Lannister. The extinction of this House would be awful and would affect the stability. They have to be kept. By this I would go with a keeping of that House through Myrcella and Trystane, which would also serve the purpose of further union.

Anyway..

Daenerys could pardon Stannis for the involvement of the usurper's war, as he was stupid enough to allow her escape. ;)

 

But let's keep that as it is...

 

a good question :

What will Daenerys do with the Free Folk ? I believe Daenerys has there the potential to inspire them, even before helping them, I guess the fact that she brought back dragons would inspire them. What do you think ? Would she allow them to keep their liberties and unite them into the "New North", as she has also liberty-ambitions, or do you think she would exclude them from her kingdom ?


Edited by Metopheles, 26 March 2014 - 01:17 PM.


#9 Cas Stark

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:24 PM

1.  No.  She has shown me she is unfit to rule.

 

2. No, it isn't villianous to want the IT, I did in fact want her to retake it until her stint in slaver's bay showed me that her judgement is unsound.

 

3. Not sure what you are asking here.  Someone has to rule, the various houses have used better v. worse strategies to gain power, some have been dragged into the war, not all even want the IT.



#10 LordStoneheart

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:28 PM

3. Not sure what you are asking here.  Someone has to rule, the various houses have used better v. worse strategies to gain power, some have been dragged into the war, not all even want the IT.

 

By that I mean there is often a criticism of Dany that she's going to fight people in Westeros that are liked, thus, making her the villain. Well, how much are these other families actually liked and have their actions not basically been the same as her planned actions, (war, conquest)?



#11 SeanF

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:33 PM

1. Not really, as I think it's bound to make life worse for millions of the Smallfolk. A more or less bloodless restoration, like Charles II, would be fine. But a bloody invasion would be fun to read.

2. It wouldn't make her a villain, per se. But, if she did things like crucifying her rivals, feeding them to her dragons, massacring people beyond the needs of war, she'd have become a villain.

3. Most people deserve sympathy who are on the receiving end of horrors.

#12 RoamingRonin

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:33 PM

I was going to start a thread asking people to name enemies and places Dany is supposed to burn and destroy because post like these:

I don't support Dany's conquest mostly because I'm not interested in seeing a restoration of the Targaryen dynasty.  I would find it "villainous" in regards to how far she has to go with the whole Fire and Blood thing to get what she wants.


Are so vague.

She's not Theon who went to extremes to hold Winterfell and failed. Innocent people have suffered during the restoration part of her reign but she hasn't intentionally go out burning people that don't deserve it.

#13 Cas Stark

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:35 PM

 

By that I mean there is often a criticism of Dany that she's going to fight people in Westeros that are liked, thus, making her the villain. Well, how much are these other families actually liked and have their actions not basically been the same as her planned actions, (war, conquest)?

 

LOL, see you said you didn't want this to be about Stannis, but he's the only one really still trying to get the IT who is popular.  

 

I guess it depends on how things play out with Dorne and the Tyrells, I could could either way, it will depend on the specifics of who does what.  Not sure how popular these families are in reality, and other than a handful of contrarians the Lannisters and Greyjoys aren't widely popular

 

There aren't any adult Starks left, so that's out; obviously if she becomes an adversary of Jon "Targaryen" "Stark" Snow, then she will cross into villian territory for me, but I don't see that happening.



#14 SeanF

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:43 PM

To argue against myself, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Aegon and Arianne take Kings Landing, and for Jon Connington, Tyene and Nymeria, all of whom are mad for revenge, to carry out a reign of terror in the capital. In that case, Dany's invasion might be a lesser evil.

#15 Don Roberto

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:47 PM

Innocent people have suffered during the restoration part of her reign but she hasn't intentionally go out burning people that don't deserve it.

 

Like crucifying 163 random meereenese masters without ascerting who did what?



#16 David Selig

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:52 PM

 

Like crucifying 163 random meereenese masters without ascerting who did what?

Here we go again...



#17 Dany Girl

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:52 PM

 
Like crucifying 163 random meereenese masters without ascerting who did what?


Not one of those masters is an innocent person. They are freaking Great Masters, they are directly responsible for the people in their city being slaves. They run the city, they order the training of the slaves. Every single one of those masters has the blood of hundreds if not thousands of men, women and children on their hands, whether or not they were a part of the crucifixition of 163 very innocent slave children.

Not to mention that the city is run as a sort of senate or congress, so the idea that any of them were not at least aware of the plot to kill 163 innocent children is pretty ludicrous. They knew, they didn't care.

#18 Lord Robb

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:03 PM

I have never been very fond of Targaryens so I do not support Daenerys. The only small support I have for her is based on some of her capitains/commanders/followers that I like namely Grey Worm, Belwas, Jorah and Jhogo. I do not feel that she should rule Westeros for a couple of reasons:

 

1. She is not forgiving at all. Crucifying masers, her wish to kill the Starks just because of that Lannisters murdered Rhaegars children and so on. She would kill off all the Lannisters, the Riverlords, the Northern lords, Starks, Stannis, and probably some families in the Vale too. She would probably kill off many good and nice characters/families as well as bad ones. The bloodbath that she would turn Westeros into would make tWot5K to seem like a little skirmish.

 

2. The Targaryens makes me irritated. 

 

3. I am a Stark supporter.

 

Would it make her a villain? Depends. If she has not learned to forgive so maybe yes. If she burns a Stark for crimes the Lannisters did so yes. If she do not care about forgive, yes. If she does not care about the smallfolk so yes. But if she tries to do it less bloody and think about the consequences her invasion gives so no.



#19 El Guapo

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:05 PM

I have never been very fond of Targaryens so I do not support Daenerys. The only small support I have for her is based on some of her capitains/commanders/followers that I like namely Grey Worm, Belwas, Jorah and Jhogo. I do not feel that she should rule Westeros for a couple of reasons:

 

1. She is not forgiving at all. Crucifying masers, her wish to kill the Starks just because of that Lannisters murdered Rhaegars children and so on. She would kill off all the Lannisters, the Riverlords, the Northern lords, Starks, Stannis, and probably some families in the Vale too. She would probably kill off many good and nice characters/families as well as bad ones. The bloodbath that she would turn Westeros into would make tWot5K to seem like a little skirmish.

 

There is absolutely no textual evidence for this whatsoever.



#20 ghosts in winterfell

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:07 PM

I was going to start a thread asking people to name enemies and places Dany is supposed to burn and destroy because post like these:


Are so vague.

She's not Theon who went to extremes to hold Winterfell and failed. Innocent people have suffered during the restoration part of her reign but she hasn't intentionally go out burning people that don't deserve it.

 

Icu trying to drag my fav into this.   Dany has already shown she's willing to play dirty, she's not above resorting to extremes.