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[TWOW Spoilers] NEW Chapter Discussion - "Mercy"


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#661 Balerion's Groupie

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:55 AM

That qualifies as sorcery, I guess.

But, Tyrion? Does Tyrion and Arya have the same height? I think she's already taller if she's anything like Sansa.

Maybe, Tommen? They're pretty much the same age and I guess he's the last to go according to Maggy's prophecy. What better way to go closer to the already deteriorated mind of Cersei than as his dead younger son.


Tommen would be the perfect candidate, but I would feel sorry for Cersei. To be killed by your own child whom you thought was sweet and innocent? That would be painful.

#662 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:59 AM

If your correct i hope its the former and not the latter. I hate it when characters use magic themselves (dragons, weirwoods, direwolves etc is cool)
The Varys reference makes a lot of sense and i think maybe your onto something with that but if she does, it has to be soon, she's already taller than him (i'm sure she can feign being his height but not for much longer)

Heh, I've said if before in the thread, this chapter was an Arya's pov but Varys' presence was felt all over the place: the shaven head, the mummery training, the fake sweet innocent voice/personality to conceive a real one that is actually dangerous and luring a character into his death with sweet innocent lies. Varys, Varys, Varys.

#663 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:00 AM

Tommen would be the perfect candidate, but I would feel sorry for Cersei. To be killed by your own child whom you thought was sweet and innocent? That would be painful.

For this to happen, Tommen should be already dead and maybe Cersei would see him as a way to "reunite" with him, Myrcella and Joffrey. So, maybe her death is not that bad.

#664 The Scabbard Of the Morning

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:01 AM

 
If anything I think it shows GRRM is preventing ardent book readers from being spoiled by the show (except for those few that saw a premier I guess). He released this chapter before the show began so we could read it before seeing it.


Oh I completely agree that's what he's doing, and I appreciate him doing it. But I just have a feeling this is a finger in the dam scenario. That pretty soon the dam is going to burst and we will all be washed away in a flood of spoilers.

#665 Balerion's Groupie

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:05 AM

For this to happen, Tommen should be already dead and maybe Cersei would see him as a way to "reunite" with him, Myrcella and Joffrey. So, maybe her death is not that bad.


It could be poetic way to go I guess, considering that Cersei will probably no longer have a reason to live.

But dead child coming back to life only to strangle you is just so wrong. No one deserves go like that. But it would be soooo perfect.

#666 SeanF

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:08 AM

"Think so?" is up there with "Is there gold in the village? Is there silver? Where are the gems?......." as she stabs the Tickler.

#667 Arataniello

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:16 AM

So did Arya go rogue in killing Raff? What was the point of training with Izembaro to just be messing around as a mummer? Was there someone else they were supposed to go after? And Arya just ruined it?

 

Is this how she leaves the faceless men? If she even does leave them?

 

I think she can justify that the killing was OK by Faceless Man rules, because she got him to say her name "Mercy".  So she can claim that he asked for the gift of death, which she then gave to him.

 

Arya will not be kicked out of the organisation because of her deeds in this chapter, she will just have to stop being Mercy the mummer.



#668 Newstar

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:18 AM

 

Fuck. He's going to kill [Arya], I know it.  Fuck.

 

100% shes going to die I think. Really, would be shocked if George lets this character live. (...) Arya living will be glorifying revenge, which doesn't seem like George at all. Every instance in the book we've seen that people that got their revenge they are unfulfilled. Nothing will bring back what she lost, Catelyn herself had that very wise way of thinking.

 

Yeah, I'm sort of getting that vibe, to be honest. I hoped the FM thing would divert her from her course of vengeance, what with the FM teaching her that it's not up to her to determine who deserves to die, but nope! This chapter put paid to that notion and puts Arya back on track to her agenda of revenge (with an added ritualistic flavour to her kill), and as others have pointed out, GRRM goes to some pains to avoid glorifying revenge.

 

It seems clearer to me that GRRM is doing with Arya more or less what he's doing with Tyrion: take a sympathetic character (although AGOT Arya was far more sympathetic and a much better person than AGOT Tyrion, obviously) and defying the reader to continue to sympathize and root for them despite their increasingly questionable actions. "So you still like Tyrion, huh? What if he murders his father and lover? Not enough for you? How about if he rapes a slave? Still not enough? So you still root for Arya even though she murdered Dareon, huh? What if she makes another unauthorized kill and creepily reenacts Lommy's murder? Would you still be cool with her then?" etc. etc.

 

Even though Tyrion didn't appear in this character, it seemed like Arya and Tyrion were linked quite closely. I'm more convinced than I've ever been that neither will survive the series; I was already pretty sure about Tyrion, but I had hope for Arya.

 

Oh I completely agree that's what he's doing, and I appreciate him doing it. But I just have a feeling this is a finger in the dam scenario. That pretty soon the dam is going to burst and we will all be washed away in a flood of spoilers.

 

Heh, I tend to think the opposite: GRRM was forced to throw us a bone by the powers that be because TWOW is looking further and further away.



#669 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:23 AM

Yeah, I'm sort of getting that vibe, to be honest. I hoped the FM thing would divert her from her course of vengeance, what with the FM teaching her that it's not up to her to determine who deserves to die, but nope! This chapter put paid to that notion and puts Arya back on track to her agenda of revenge (with an added ritualistic flavour to her kill), and as others have pointed out, GRRM goes to some pains to avoid glorifying revenge.

I like she's back on tracks because so far I felt she had diverged from the main plot even more than Dany.

ETA: I feared that the FM might end up being simply a minor plot in the main story once Arya gets back to Westeros, but now I feel there is a relation between them and Varys, so, even if she left, we still will hear from them.

Edited by JonCon's Red Beard, 27 March 2014 - 02:24 AM.


#670 Mithras Stoneborn

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:23 AM

She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

 

Bran is watching Nymeria and probably seeing Arya in her.



#671 Slayer of Lies

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:25 AM

I think it largely depends on taste.  ADWD was my favorite book so it's difficult to imagine any of it being changed.  I like that gleeful read this chapter provided, but not at the expense of changing the previous book.  Another thing is that I have really felt no anticipation for TWOW, especially because I have found the majority of the TWOW reads very boring.  "Mercy" excites me again.  When an author has a gap of up to six years between books, I far prefer having exciting chapters be delayed and released as a spoiler than continuing to lose interest in a franchise I started off loving and began to find myself almost loathing.

For me it's ASOS, AGOT, then ADWD, and one or two more "bang" chapters might have pushed ADWD up a spot.

So, somewhat needless to say, I have high hopes for TWOW because of the standard set by ASOS (IMO), and will have even higher hopes for ADOS.

So what's worse? Loathing the series now, or setting one's hopes too high? :P

#672 Ran

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:32 AM

Florina,

 

We have that Mercy is asked to help sew up Lady Stork's gown after she stepped on the hem and messed it up, and then we have her describing how she runs to get needle and thread so that they can  "sew the lace hem back onto the cloth-of-gold gown that the queen would wear in the wedding scene."

 

Damaged gown = cloth-of-gold gown the queen wears = gown that Lady Stork is wearing.


Edited by Ran, 27 March 2014 - 02:32 AM.


#673 WiDMNDBAMMD

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:36 AM

So I need to ask a question. Does the fact that this scene will be played out in season 4 episode 1 make the book readers wary that the show will be spoiling the books very soon. That were basically already at the point where the show catching up is no longer a theoretical but is in fact happening now.

 

The show hasn't caught up yet. I get wary of the internet once people start getting to see early premiers of episode one since they obviously don't care about spoiler tags.

 

The reason that the scene in the show is similar to this was concluded long ago since Polliver killed Lommy that Arya would kill him in some fashion talking about carrying him or helping him up and putting needle through his throat... to make up for the no tickler deal.

 

In the books Polliver dies at the inn in the crossroads along with the Tickler, but Polliver didn't kill Lommy Greenhands in the books Raff the Sweetling did.

 

still I suppose if D&D read this then it influenced the way to write the script for the scene.

 

oh and do I get any brownie points for being correct about episode one?

 


I think this feature clearly shows Arya with Needle in just about every scene/shot shown. Which means that she gets needle back early. Probably the first episode of the season, yay.



#674 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:52 AM


So what's worse? Loathing the series now, or setting one's hopes too high? :P

I think both are equally bad.  If my hopes are too high, I would turn out annoyed that I stuck around anticipating a book only to be let down.  If I loathe the series, I eventually give up on it and forget and miss out on something potentially awesome.  But, if the author releases chapters in between the long wait that captivate me and keeps me eager for the next book, then that's probably the best position to be in.  :)



#675 Newstar

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:01 AM

I like she's back on tracks because so far I felt she had diverged from the main plot even more than Dany.

 

Well, sure, but not if it means that Arya is going to die because she's too far gone!



#676 Lyanna Stark

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:02 AM

Given how Mercy describes the dwarf's penis, I'd say she's playing Sansa. Glad to see the Stark sisters finding accord, after all. 

 

 

Haha that was one of my first thoughts as well, how Arya thought it was done all wrong, all crooked with a bulbous purple head.

 

 

 

It was made to flop out, for the rape. What a hideous thing, Mercy thought as she knelt before the dwarf to fix him. The cock was a foot long and as thick as her arm, big enough to be seen from the highest balcony. The dyer had done a poor job with the leather, though; the thing was a mottled pink and white, with a bulbous head the color of a plum.

 

 

Yet what Sansa described in ASOS Sansa III:

 

 

 

Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head.

 

After which point Sansa goes on to lament to the Gods how they have punished her for inflicting such a husband on her.

 

 

Further, Bobono complains to Arya:

 

 

 

With that, he grabbed at her chest, fumbling for a nipple. “You have no titties. How can I rape a girl with no titties?”

 

Which incidentally was one of the main reasons Tyrion did not go ahead and consummate his marriage with an unwilling Sansa: he did not want to become a rapist of a girl hardly more than a child.

 

 

As for whether Mercy played Sansa or Shae, the main character is probably meant to be Sansa, a maiden raped by her bitter and angered Lannister dwarf husband, but most likely some elements of the Shae story has been melded into it since well, rumours. There's also the fact that Sansa disappeared and was never found again, which for most people means "death" so I imagine for most people they would assume Sansa was dead, and that Tyrion probably killed her.

 

 

Regarding playing Sansa in the shapeless brown dress, that dress is Mercy's dress. It's specifically mentioned that she could nick something from the wardrobe, but that Izembaro woud know. All the other actors are in costumes, so it's most likely Mercy will be too. And she was not to come on until Act 2 either which gives her some time to prepare her oufit.

 

It really reminds you of Varys, the shaved head and the mummery. Only it seems to me, Arya is a better and more skilled assassin than Varys. It says even Izembaro agreed she was "graceful" even if she still cannot sew. Arya also threatens Bobono with making him a eunuch, so the Varys references are there.

 

As for Lady Stork, she seems to be playing Cersei in cloth of gold, and there's supposed to be a wedding scene. Sansa/Tyrion's or Joffrey's? 


Edited by Lyanna Stark, 27 March 2014 - 03:04 AM.


#677 Thats_So_Craven

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:22 AM

The biggest thing I took out of this was GRRM went out of his way to say "LEMON TREES IN BRAAVOS? NOPE NO WAY NOPE NOPE NOPE"



#678 Ser Steve

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:24 AM

After this, I can definitely see Arya possibly dying in ADoS. 

 

Either that or the God of Death/Many-Faced God spares her because I dunno, he favours her somehow.

 

Though I reckon no more Starks will die. I believe Jon will be in a bad way for a while, and the rest of them will come close to being killed, or may be injured (Arya being an assassin, Sansa making political movements, Rickon's possible dangerous journey back to Winterfell and the dangers he may face there, and Bran being beyond the wall).

 

Back to the topic, I loved the chapter. I did partly expect it to be a prologue random character possibly getting killed, but then came all the signs of Arya!


Edited by Ser Steve, 27 March 2014 - 03:25 AM.


#679 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:24 AM

As said earlier she is likely graceful because of water dancer training. Illyrio is another like that despite being fat.

 

 

Anyways, I favored the mummer theory over the courtesan training one because I thought he wouldn't go there but if he can have her grope Raff and have a dwarf and Raff touch her then maybe it's not off limits. Although it could just be pretending to be a mermaid who are younger and I doubt go all the way like full on courtesans. Then again it may not happen. I don't think she has time to learn full on glamor though. I doubt her chapters is going to fully be devoted to learning Pentoshi and Lyseni so it must be some other training.

 

I liked that the Black Pearl made an appearance instead of just Arya's flashback of speaking to her.



#680 WiDMNDBAMMD

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 03:27 AM

 

As for whether Mercy played Sansa or Shae, the main character is probably meant to be Sansa, a maiden raped by her bitter and angered Lannister dwarf husband, but most likely some elements of the Shae story has been melded into it since well, rumours. There's also the fact that Sansa disappeared and was never found again, which for most people means "death" so I imagine for most people they would assume Sansa was dead, and that Tyrion probably killed her.

 

It really reminds you of Varys, the shaved head and the mummery. Only it seems to me, Arya is a better and more skilled assassin than Varys. It says even Izembaro agreed she was "graceful" even if she still cannot sew. Arya also threatens Bobono with making him a eunuch, so the Varys references are there.

 

As for Lady Stork, she seems to be playing Cersei in cloth of gold, and there's supposed to be a wedding scene. Sansa/Tyrion's or Joffrey's? 

 

The parallels between Arya and her sister and the Bobono / Tyrion are there because Arya is truly Sansa's sister, not necessarily because she's playing her sister in a mummer's show. The fake dwarf penis description did put me back in the mindset of Sansa's wedding night though.

 

Arya grabbing Bobono's nose and threatening to tear it off? That's a Tyrion reference obviously...

 

I suspect that since there's two kings in this play that it's Joffrey's wedding that we'd see if we watched the play.

 

Bob dies in the first act, great speech, Tyrion then comes to town to try and control his little king.

 

I do wonder how this play ends? Seems like a comedy more than a tragedy, right?