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So was Viserys in the wrong?


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#1 The Fresh PtwP

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:07 AM

I'm rereading AGoT and I just can't come to any other conclusion other than the Dothraki are brutal pricks whom nobody can lead.

Viserys is delusional but damn. The Dothraki/Drogo seem to have no intention of paying him back...ever.

#2 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:24 AM

Viserys wasn't part of the marriage discussions at all.  It was all Illyrio, who was also handsomely paid.  Illyrio told Viserys the Dothraki intended to be his army to Westeros, but there isn't much to suggest that this was ever part of the agreement.  Dothraki exchange gifts and they already gifted Illyrio in exchange for the gift of Dany. 

 

That's not to say that the Dothraki aren't pricks or that Viserys isn't a dumb fuck.  Just that Viserys and the Dothraki were manipulated by Illyrio. 


Edited by Dr. Pepper, 27 March 2014 - 04:28 AM.


#3 Mladen

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 04:49 AM

Viserys wasn't part of the marriage discussions at all.  It was all Illyrio, who was also handsomely paid.  Illyrio told Viserys the Dothraki intended to be his army to Westeros, but there isn't much to suggest that this was ever part of the agreement.  Dothraki exchange gifts and they already gifted Illyrio in exchange for the gift of Dany. 

 

That's not to say that the Dothraki aren't pricks or that Viserys isn't a dumb fuck.  Just that Viserys and the Dothraki were manipulated by Illyrio. 

 

True... But, IDK, I think Illyrio played this rather nicely... If we know he has Aegon as not just the back-up but as the true King (disregard of his true identity), then I think he planned Dothraki to be "conquering Westeros army". I said it before somewhere, I think that the original plan here was to kill Viserys, let Dany and Drogo lead Dothraki to Westeros, conquer it and then present Aegon as the rightful heir. Dothraki would object to it and we would have had some sort of Dance of dragons 2.0, but Aegon would have GC, plus even Westerosi lords would support him against the savages Dothraki are. So all along, Aegon was the key of Illyrio's planning.



#4 Mikkel

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:00 AM

True... But, IDK, I think Illyrio played this rather nicely... If we know he has Aegon as not just the back-up but as the true King (disregard of his true identity), then I think he planned Dothraki to be "conquering Westeros army". I said it before somewhere, I think that the original plan here was to kill Viserys, let Dany and Drogo lead Dothraki to Westeros, conquer it and then present Aegon as the rightful heir. Dothraki would object to it and we would have had some sort of Dance of dragons 2.0, but Aegon would have GC, plus even Westerosi lords would support him against the savages Dothraki are. So all along, Aegon was the key of Illyrio's planning.


Pretty much this. I'm willing to take Illyrio on his word here, in so far as there probably was a deal where Viserys would "get his army", eventually, but in either case they were never expected to succeed. The plan was for the Dothraki to weaken Westeros, cause chaos and open the way for Aegon to "rescue" Westeros from the "savages". Nothing like an outside threat to unify a country, and that would apply to Aegon too if there wasn't an even worse outside threat in the Dothraki - with Dothraki invasion, it's much easier to paint him inside the lines, against the outside threat, as it were.

Illyrio has also set up his fallbacks beautifully: worst case, Dany and Viserys dies with the Dothraki, but Illyrio still got paid, and still curried favor with Khal Drogo. If Viserys dies/gives up, and Dany simply becomes Drogo's Khaleesi (the most likely scenario pre-AGOT), Illyrio has an ally in Drogo and Dany, and a handsome payment, and he has still "played both sides" until he's ready to reveal Aegon.

Any scenario where the Dothraki do go to Westeros plays into the above, where Aegon - when the time is opportune - sweeps in and saves the day. Of course, he could never have anticipated Drogo's death or Dany's dragons, but all things considered the plan was good and you have to admit Illyrio and Varys played it well, and adapted quite well, too.

#5 Hippocras

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:06 AM

The plan was not for Viserys to go with the Dothraki. They gave him the option to stay in Pentos. Perhaps he would have died in Pentos soon enough, but still.

My personal opinion is that the Dothraki angle was to get Dany out of the way. He knew that the Dothraki wives are never free afterwards. Even if the Khal died, Dany would be forced to live the rest of their days in Dosh Khaleen he thought. He also knew the Dothraki never cross the sea.

His real plan was fAegon and the Golden Company.

Edited by Hippocras, 27 March 2014 - 05:06 AM.


#6 Mikkel

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 05:12 AM

The plan was not for Viserys to go with the Dothraki. They gave him the option to stay in Pentos. Perhaps he would have died in Pentos soon enough, but still.

My personal opinion is that the Dothraki angle was to get Dany out of the way. He knew that the Dothraki wives are never free afterwards. Even if the Khal died, Dany would be forced to live the rest of their days in Dosh Khaleen he thought. He also knew the Dothraki never cross the sea.

His real plan was fAegon and the Golden Company.


True, I forgot to put that in there, but yes in every single scenario (except the one we actually got, with dragons and magic and stuff), Illyrio gets Dany and Viserys out of the equation, gets paid, improves relations with Khal Drogo (expected to be a mighty force in Essos for decades), and no one can claim he didn't do his best for House Targaryan when he eventually rolls out "his" Aegon.

#7 SpringKing

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:07 AM

The Dothraki can be led very well by another Dothraki. We can take Illyrio and Jorah at their word - the price Drogo paid for Dany was a promise to go to war for Viserys. 

 

“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”
 
Illyrio's gift of the dragon eggs to Dany is the best clue that she and Viserys are Illyrio's Plan A and not a sideshow intended to sap Westeros' strength prior to Aegon's appearance. Possession of the dragon eggs is the best proof their owner is a true Targ heir. If Viserys & Dany were only meant to attrit the strength of the 7 Kingdoms, 1 egg would have been enough, saving the other 2 for Aegon to wield as a quasi birth certificate. Also, an invasion by Dothraki barbarians doesnt make Aegon look any better alternative when those barbarians are being commanded by Targs. And no guarantee that Viserys' and Dany's hordes wouldnt sweep to victory before Aegon appeared.
 
Aegon was Plan B, a lesser Targ heir and backup. After Viserys' death and Dany's dawdling, Illyrio sends Aegon to marry Dany to combine Plans A & B. It will be Aegon's solo success in Westeros that finally goads Dany into abandoning Mereen to claim her birthright.


#8 Mikkel

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:15 AM

The Dothraki can be led very well by another Dothraki. We can take Illyrio and Jorah at their word - the price Drogo paid for Dany was a promise to go to war for Viserys. 
 

“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

 
Illyrio's gift of the dragon eggs to Dany is the best clue that she and Viserys are Illyrio's Plan A and not a sideshow intended to sap Westeros' strength prior to Aegon's appearance. Possession of the dragon eggs is the best proof their owner is a true Targ heir. If Viserys & Dany were only meant to attrit the strength of the 7 Kingdoms, 1 egg would have been enough, saving the other 2 for Aegon to wield as a quasi birth certificate. Also, an invasion by Dothraki barbarians doesnt make Aegon look any better alternative when those barbarians are being commanded by Targs. And no guarantee that Viserys' and Dany's hordes wouldnt sweep to victory before Aegon appeared.
 
Aegon was Plan B, a lesser Targ heir and backup. After Viserys' death and Dany's dawdling, Illyrio sends Aegon to marry Dany to combine Plans A & B. It will be Aegon's solo success in Westeros that finally goads Dany into abandoning Mereen to claim her birthright.


Nobody was questioning Dany and Viserys' pedigree, and (supposedly) petrified Dragon Eggs acquired from Asshai are no proof of anything. They were valuable, but of nothing more than monetary value until they hatch - something that nobody could have anticipated.

For discussion on why the Dothraki would never have succeeded, go read any of the multitude of threads on that subject.

Finally, having Dany and/or Viserys at the head of a horde of screaming Dothraki, eventually defeated by "the glorious Aegon", would only highlight that he isn't the Mad King come again - a valuable thing if trying to win the long-term acceptance of many of the Westerosi lords.

Anything that happens post-hatching of dragons wasn't part of the original plans, as the re-emergence of dragons changes everything.

#9 Hippocras

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:16 AM

SpringKing

Except Illyrio and Varys are coconsiprators and Varys happily sent assassins after Dany.

Also, they spent YEARS educating Aegon and preparing him to be prince. Dany and Viserys only entered into Illyrio's orbit very recently. So Aegon is obviously plan A.

Edited by Hippocras, 27 March 2014 - 06:16 AM.


#10 Martin's Ghost

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:40 AM

Viserys was a fool. If the Dothraki ever would cross the sea (which seemed very doubtful until the Usurper tried to kill Dany) then Drogo would claim the throne for his wife and child and Viserys would be left without.



#11 The Santa of House Claus

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:11 AM

Drogo would have payed for his Queen. Remember, they have a different take on money and buying/selling, they don't believe in that. They believe in an exchange of gifts. Viserys gave Drogo a queen, Drogo would give him a gift in return, when the time is right. Though in reality, I doubt Drogo would every have given his an army after Viserys started to travel with them and revealed his true colors to them.

 

So maybe, the Dothraki had all the intentions of returning a gift in time, in the beginning, but as time went on and Viserys continued to insult them, try to bully them, try to steal of Dany, ect. Drogo decided that he was unworthy, and that if anyone was to get a gift in return for Dany being given to him, it is Illyrio.



#12 Rickeen Stark

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:35 AM

If Viserys stayed in Pentos, he'd be with Arianne. That is Dorne, plus him, plus Drothraki through Dany. Then, Aegon has GC plus an already nice army.



#13 SpringKing

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:34 AM

SpringKing

Except Illyrio and Varys are coconsiprators and Varys happily sent assassins after Dany.

Also, they spent YEARS educating Aegon and preparing him to be prince. Dany and Viserys only entered into Illyrio's orbit very recently. So Aegon is obviously plan A.

 

We can discount the assassins as being sent by Varys. LF is the culprit.  Why would Varys/Illyrio try to kill Viserys and Dany before the intended Dothraki invasion? Jorah was aware attempts would be made on her life, and confesses to her that Varys only wanted her watched, not harmed. Then, before the dragons hatch, Varys sends Barristan to Illyrio then on to Dany. "I’m told he [Barristan] left King’s Landing vowing to take up service with the true kingWhy send a politically savvy great knight to help your diversion? Granted, Barristan would have left Pentos for Quarth after the dragon's hatched. But if Barristan is intent on serving the true Targ heir, he never would have agreed to back Aegon while either Viserys or Dany is still alive.

 

War has too many variables for Varys/Illyrio to try and finesse multiple sides (Wo5K, Viserys/Dothraki, Aegon/GC). After a Dothraki victory in Westeros, V/I could have replaced Viserys with Aegon via assassination rather than the far more risky strategy of waging a Targ v. Targ war, each with an alien army. Both Targ claimants having the disadvantage of being usurpers to the Baratheon claim, and competition to other Westerosi powers with interests in claiming the IT.

 

In that sense, Viserys is Plan A. V/I go all in backing Viserys and the Dothraki. Let them do the dirty work of reclaiming the IT for the Targs, with Aegon/GC assisting. Then V/I, as trusted supporters, can switch to Plan B and remove Viserys. After Viserys is dead and the dragons hatch, Plans A&B are combined with the intended Aegon-Dany marriage.



#14 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:43 AM

 

True... But, IDK, I think Illyrio played this rather nicely... If we know he has Aegon as not just the back-up but as the true King (disregard of his true identity), then I think he planned Dothraki to be "conquering Westeros army". I said it before somewhere, I think that the original plan here was to kill Viserys, let Dany and Drogo lead Dothraki to Westeros, conquer it and then present Aegon as the rightful heir. Dothraki would object to it and we would have had some sort of Dance of dragons 2.0, but Aegon would have GC, plus even Westerosi lords would support him against the savages Dothraki are. So all along, Aegon was the key of Illyrio's planning.

I don't really disagree with you.  My main point was more that Illyrio is the one who made this transaction, not Viserys.  Vis was completely reliant on what Illyrio was feeding him.  The way the Dothraki interacted with Viserys implies, to me, that their agreement with Illyrio wasn't that they would be Viserys' personal army and answer to his every command.  That's without considering what we learn later about Aegon.  I took the OP's question to mean that this was specific to Viserys' relationship with the Dothraki, rather than a question about the entire Illyrio scheme.  Drogo made the deal with Illyrio, and it included Dany (via marriage), not Viserys.
 



#15 Mladen

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:50 AM

I don't really disagree with you.  My main point was more that Illyrio is the one who made this transaction, not Viserys.  Vis was completely reliant on what Illyrio was feeding him.  The way the Dothraki interacted with Viserys implies, to me, that their agreement with Illyrio wasn't that they would be Viserys' personal army and answer to his every command.  That's without considering what we learn later about Aegon.  I took the OP's question to mean that this was specific to Viserys' relationship with the Dothraki, rather than a question about the entire Illyrio scheme.  Drogo made the deal with Illyrio, and it included Dany (via marriage), not Viserys.

 

No, I know... I agree with you and you are completely right about Illyrio's role in marriage, it's just that my train of thoughts has taken me somewhere else... :)



#16 Hippocras

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:02 AM

We can discount the assassins as being sent by Varys. LF is the culprit.  Why would Varys/Illyrio try to kill Viserys and Dany before the intended Dothraki invasion? Jorah was aware attempts would be made on her life, and confesses to her that Varys only wanted her watched, not harmed. Then, before the dragons hatch, Varys sends Barristan to Illyrio then on to Dany. "Im told he [Barristan] left Kings Landing vowing to take up service with the true kingWhy send a politically savvy great knight to help your diversion? Granted, Barristan would have left Pentos for Quarth after the dragon's hatched. But if Barristan is intent on serving the true Targ heir, he never would have agreed to back Aegon while either Viserys or Dany is still alive.
 
War has too many variables for Varys/Illyrio to try and finesse multiple sides (Wo5K, Viserys/Dothraki, Aegon/GC). After a Dothraki victory in Westeros, V/I could have replaced Viserys with Aegon via assassination rather than the far more risky strategy of waging a Targ v. Targ war, each with an alien army. Both Targ claimants having the disadvantage of being usurpers to the Baratheon claim, and competition to other Westerosi powers with interests in claiming the IT.
 
In that sense, Viserys is Plan A. V/I go all in backing Viserys and the Dothraki. Let them do the dirty work of reclaiming the IT for the Targs, with Aegon/GC assisting. Then V/I, as trusted supporters, can switch to Plan B and remove Viserys. After Viserys is dead and the dragons hatch, Plans A&B are combined with the intended Aegon-Dany marriage.

Because they never intended a Dothraki invasion.

It is pretty obvious throughout the books that it is common knowledge that the Dothraki do not go on ships and have never crossed the sea and do not ever wish to. Therefore, since Varys does not seem to me to be either ill informed or stupid, he certainly knows this too.

I therefore simply do not believe at all in any theory that places a Dothraki invasion of Westeros as central to Varys's plan. Now, it is possible that Varys is playing Illyrio and that Illyrio believed the Dothraki plan was real. But not true of Varys.

And no, LF did not send the assassins. LF was master of coin and it was Varys that was specifically charged by Robert with sending assassins, a command to which Varys happily complied.

Edited by Hippocras, 27 March 2014 - 09:03 AM.


#17 The Mad Wolf

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:09 AM

 
True... But, IDK, I think Illyrio played this rather nicely... If we know he has Aegon as not just the back-up but as the true King (disregard of his true identity), then I think he planned Dothraki to be "conquering Westeros army". I said it before somewhere, I think that the original plan here was to kill Viserys, let Dany and Drogo lead Dothraki to Westeros, conquer it and then present Aegon as the rightful heir. Dothraki would object to it and we would have had some sort of Dance of dragons 2.0, but Aegon would have GC, plus even Westerosi lords would support him against the savages Dothraki are. So all along, Aegon was the key of Illyrio's planning.


I think you are right here

#18 SpringKing

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:20 AM

The problem with killing Viserys before the Dothraki conquer Westeros is that Drogo promised him a crown, later delivered molten in a ladle. With Viserys dead, the promise is void.



#19 JesterX

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:34 AM

Has anyone ever considered the Dothraki couldn't conquer Westeros for Viserys, anyway?  Dothraki weapons aren't made for piercing armor and neither are the Dothraki experienced in killing men with armor.  In one on one combat, a Dothraki soldier might have an even chance against a Westerosi in battle armor.  But full on army to army?  Ned was right, Westeros would ultimately sweep them back into the sea.



#20 Chebyshov

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:42 AM

Has anyone ever considered the Dothraki couldn't conquer Westeros for Viserys, anyway?  Dothraki weapons aren't made for piercing armor and neither are the Dothraki experienced in killing men with armor.  In one on one combat, a Dothraki soldier might have an even chance against a Westerosi in battle armor.  But full on army to army?  Ned was right, Westeros would ultimately sweep them back into the sea.

 

True, but combined with the Golden Company with (F)Aegon at the helm, they might be successful. In fact it's likely other kingdoms (Dorne, the Reach) would flock to their side to aid Rhaegar's "son."

 

You're right though. The Dothraki alone probably wouldn't stand much of a chance.