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So was Viserys in the wrong?


The Fresh PtwP

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Has anyone ever considered the Dothraki couldn't conquer Westeros for Viserys, anyway? Dothraki weapons aren't made for piercing armor and neither are the Dothraki experienced in killing men with armor. In one on one combat, a Dothraki soldier might have an even chance against a Westerosi in battle armor. But full on army to army? Ned was right, Westeros would ultimately sweep them back into the sea.

Yes, it's been discussed extensively, and I think the majority (though not all) agree that they would indeed not be able to conquer and hold the place for any length of time - though opinions on what degree of chaos and destruction they could cause are varied, and of course that also depends on a host of variables that we don't know as Dany/Drogo's plans regarding Westeros don't really come close to fruition in the story.

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Yes, it's been discussed extensively, and I think the majority (though not all) agree that they would indeed not be able to conquer and hold the place for any length of time - though opinions on what degree of chaos and destruction they could cause are varied, and of course that also depends on a host of variables that we don't know as Dany/Drogo's plans regarding Westeros don't really come close to fruition in the story.

I think the Dothraki would land somewhere, take a few towns/castles, etc. But once the word spreads, Westeros would regroup, rally and counterattack. And the whole notion is the height of Viserys's delusions. The idea that any people, anywhere, would happily welcome an exile returning to their land and taking power with a FOREIGN army is RIDICULOUS. The whole realm would rise up against them.

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Jon Con's discussions with the Golden Company suggest that a Dothraki Khalasar was intended to link up with them. I assume that was meant to be all or part of Drogo's Khalasar.



Dany 's dream at the end of ADWD suggests she believes that Drogo would have honoured his side of the bargain.


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Because they never intended a Dothraki invasion.

It is pretty obvious throughout the books that it is common knowledge that the Dothraki do not go on ships and have never crossed the sea and do not ever wish to. Therefore, since Varys does not seem to me to be either ill informed or stupid, he certainly knows this too.

I therefore simply do not believe at all in any theory that places a Dothraki invasion of Westeros as central to Varys's plan. Now, it is possible that Varys is playing Illyrio and that Illyrio believed the Dothraki plan was real. But not true of Varys.

And no, LF did not send the assassins. LF was master of coin and it was Varys that was specifically charged by Robert with sending assassins, a command to which Varys happily complied.

If a Dothraki invasion was never V/I's intention then this line from Illyrio, that Arya overheard, makes no sense:

“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

If an invasion was intended it makes no sense for Varys to send assassins after Viserys and Dany beforehand. Killing Vis before the Dothraki invade nullifies Drogo's marriage debt. That's why I think LF sent the assassins. Somebody had to pay for them. Plus, assassinating Dany in Quarth after the dragons hatch means some Quartheen winds up with WMD.

If Varys is double crossing Illyrio then I gotta admit Im lost at the moment.

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Viserys is delusional but damn. The Dothraki/Drogo seem to have no intention of paying him back...ever.


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You may be right but we just never got to find out. Viserys was impatient and couldn't resist acting like a clown at every opportunity. We know that the Dothraki follow strength and that they don't make "bargains" or "deals" as such. If Viserys had "played the game" and shown more patience and respect he may well have got what he wanted in the end.



Instead he acted like a spoilt brat, making demands of Drogo and mistreating Dany. He may as well have held a banner which read "please kill me, I am a penis".



Your assessment of the Dothraki as "brutal pricks" is not inaccurate but Viserys should have heeded the advice he received from Illyrio, Jorah and even Dany. However, he was as bonkers as his old man...so he even made the Dothraki look sane by comparison. In the end his death seemed almost like a mercy kill; he was put down in the same way that the Dothraki might deal with a rabid dog which was becoming irritating.


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If Varys is double crossing Illyrio then I gotta admit Im lost at the moment.


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Same here. It is harder to read his intentions than any other character's.



If Varys supported Dany (or Viserys) then why try to persuade Robert and Eddard to assassinate her?



This is one of the reasons that Varys is among my favourite characters. We have no idea what he wants, whom he supports or even whether he is "good" or "bad". Are his intentions honorable? He appears to be loyal to nobody but, unlike Littlefinger, his agenda is a complete mystery.


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If a Dothraki invasion was never V/I's intention then this line from Illyrio, that Arya overheard, makes no sense:

Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.

...

If Varys is double crossing Illyrio then I gotta admit Im lost at the moment.

Yes that line is problematic. But it is ambiguous enough that one of two other versions are possible (or both):

1. Illyrio believed that the Dothraki would for the first time ever cross the sea, but not necessarily that Varys did.

2. That part of their plan was for the Dothraki to attack somewhere in Essos, like for example Braavos or Volantis. Does the discussion refer specifically to them attacking Westeros?

It just seems so completely out of character for Varys to be complicit in bringing screaming savages over to sack Westeros, and also so completely unlikely that he was not aware of their aversion to the sea.

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i started a thread last week about Viserys and the good community here set me straight. I now believe the marriage to Drogo was to get rid of Dany and Viserys to open up a path for (f)Aegon to come about. Viserys was never in the cards to rule nor Dany. This was Illyrio and Varys plot all along.


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Has anyone ever considered the Dothraki couldn't conquer Westeros for Viserys, anyway? Dothraki weapons aren't made for piercing armor and neither are the Dothraki experienced in killing men with armor. In one on one combat, a Dothraki soldier might have an even chance against a Westerosi in battle armor. But full on army to army? Ned was right, Westeros would ultimately sweep them back into the sea.

I'm sure Western Europe said the same thing about the Huns and Mongols. It doesn't mean they were right. The Dothraki are essentially light horse / archers. They can move twice as fast as most armies. Their compound bows outrange the Westerosi longbows and can punch through armor. Also bear in mind that they can land unmolested in Dorne, since Viserys is betrothed to Arianne. If the Dothraki came out of Dorne with an army of Dornish and 40K riders, in addition to whatever lords would support Viserys/Dany like the Darrys (and probably crownland families.

It's not in the books, but Robert had a very eloquent and insightful look at this during the show:

Let's say Viserys Targaryen lands with 40,000 Dothraki screamers at his back. We hole up in our castles. A wise move. Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field. They leave us in our castles. They go from town to town, looting and burning, killing every man who can't hide behind a stone wall, stealing all our crops and livestock, enslaving all our women and children. How long do the people of the Seven Kingdoms stand behind their absentee king, their cowardly king hiding behind high walls? When do the people decide that Viserys Targaryen is the rightful monarch after all?

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Yes that line is problematic. But it is ambiguous enough that one of two other versions are possible (or both):

1. Illyrio believed that the Dothraki would for the first time ever cross the sea, but not necessarily that Varys did.

2. That part of their plan was for the Dothraki to attack somewhere in Essos, like for example Braavos or Volantis. Does the discussion refer specifically to them attacking Westeros?

It just seems so completely out of character for Varys to be complicit in bringing screaming savages over to sack Westeros, and also so completely unlikely that he was not aware of their aversion to the sea.

If Drogo's debt was to crown Viserys I cant see the Dothraki attacking a Free City (2). We assume Drogo made this promise directly to Viserys - “I want the crown he promised me."

Possible Varys thought the Dothraki invasion would never happen, but that only makes it so that he thinks half a plan, Aegon/GC alone, can work to seize the IT.

i started a thread last week about Viserys and the good community here set me straight. I now believe the marriage to Drogo was to get rid of Dany and Viserys to open up a path for (f)Aegon to come about. Viserys was never in the cards to rule nor Dany.

If Illyrio wanted to get rid of Vis & Dany, why not just have them killed or locked up instead of giving away 3 hugely valuable dragon eggs that Aegon could put to good use? With Illyrio acting as broker, Drogo promises Viserys he'll attack Westeros. So instead of getting rid of Vis & Dany, all Illyrio has accomplished is to send Vis & Dany beyond his control, give away 3 eggs, and arrange for an army Vis can use in the future. Doesnt make sense.

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The Dothraki horde of 50-100k thousand does not travel to Pentos to simply exchange a gift bride. they had to be there to threaten to sack the city so they simply where bribed to leave. Illyrio had hoped both would die in the Dothraki sea (he is on team Young Griff/Aegon after all), so, I expect Illyrio as other city leaders in Essos were getting reports of the Khal moving in his direction. Jorah tells of what happens when Khals show up at city gates. Illyrio could get rid of both the true heirs to the Iron Throne and the Dothraki too. Jorah was simply an inside man to spy on the Targs for info purposes. Illyrio also needed Dany to be e virgin so the Khal Drogo would be extra pleased, less he feel cheated and sack Pentos anyway. Viserys was told that he must make sure Dany pleases Drogo (Viserys never realized that it was their lives that were dependent upon it, not his getting an army) Viserys was duped into giving Khal Drogo an exotic looking virgin to make her his sex slave and three dragon eggs were throne in to boot (Drogo's too). Otherwise, Pentos and everyone in it would be killed including Illyrio. That is how the Dothraki roll baby. Read and learn. Jorah pretty much tells Viserys that the Khal see Dany as a gift, which means not a contract/agreement/payment for an army. This is when Viserys simply looses it. He had been had and gave up his sister whom was supposed to by his wife.


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@ springking



I don't think that valuable dragon eggs are of consequence to wealthy Illyrio. No one knew they'd hatch to be dragons.



The Dothraki are a savage people that have never crossed the narrow sea. Ever. The odds of them getting on boats and traveling to Westeros to fight for the Khal's good-brother (a guy like Viserys none the less) is highly unlikely. Me thinks someone like Illyrio knew that.



Why waste those resources to place Young Griff in line? You gotta bet big to win big.

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The Dothraki horde of 50-100k thousand does not travel to Pentos to simply exchange a gift bride. they had to be there to threaten to sack the city so they simply where bribed to leave. Illyrio had hoped both would die in the Dothraki sea (he is on team Young Griff/Aegon after all), so, I expect Illyrio as other city leaders in Essos were getting reports of the Khal moving in his direction. Jorah tells of what happens when Khals show up at city gates. Illyrio could get rid of both the true heirs to the Iron Throne and the Dothraki too. Jorah was simply an inside man to spy on the Targs for info purposes. Illyrio also needed Dany to be e virgin so the Khal Drogo would be extra pleased, less he feel cheated and sack Pentos anyway. Viserys was told that he must make sure Dany pleases Drogo (Viserys never realized that it was their lives that were dependent upon it, not his getting an army) Viserys was duped into giving Khal Drogo an exotic looking virgin to make her his sex slave and three dragon eggs were throne in to boot (Drogo's too). Otherwise, Pentos and everyone in it would be killed including Illyrio. That is how the Dothraki roll baby. Read and learn. Jorah pretty much tells Viserys that the Khal see Dany as a gift, which means not a contract/agreement/payment for an army. This is when Viserys simply looses it. He had been had and gave up his sister whom was supposed to by his wife.

This seems about right.

Maybe it was protection for both Pentos and Volantis, since Illyrio seems to make his money at least in part from the slave trade and probably has interests in Volantis

And when Drogo dies, maybe Volantis lost its protection....

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"i started a thread last week about Viserys and the good community here set me straight. I now believe the marriage to Drogo was to get rid of Dany and Viserys to open up a path for (f)Aegon to come about. Viserys was never in the cards to rule nor Dany. This was Illyrio and Varys plot all along."



why not just have them killed several years before then? No need to give valuable eggs or engage the always volatile Drago in the matter? Indeed one of the possibilities is that Drago would have said to V he could not cross the sea but that he would give V. the free cities instead. V, might not be too thrilled but being king of properous city states is sure a hell of a lot better base on which to build an invasion of Westeros then being an itinerent begger prince.


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I don't think that valuable dragon eggs are of consequence to wealthy Illyrio. No one knew they'd hatch to be dragons.


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I totally disagree. We are led to believe that the eggs themselves are worth a fortune, regardless of whether or not they were expected to hatch.



I forget the wording in the books but in the TV show Viserys says that one egg is worth a ship and two eggs would buy a ship and an army!! And this was when they thought the eggs were petrified.



I think a better question would be, if Illyrio is indeed so wealthy, why did he not simply buy Viserys an army?? Why would he need the Dothraki at all if he is that rich?



Also, what Viserys said (in the show at least) makes no sense at all...How on earth can a whole army be worth the same amount as a single ship?!?



When Jorah says "yet you have three eggs", Viserys replies "I need a large army"...This also makes no sense. How could he transport an entire (large) army to Westeros in only one ship?



:)

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why not just have them killed several years before then? No need to give valuable eggs or engage the always volatile Drago in the matter?
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I agree with you.

Not only could Illyrio have had them killed ages ago if that is all he wanted, but he could have not looked after them in his own house for over a year!

I can't accept that he would hatch such a complicated and risky plot just to achieve what a pillow to the face or a rusty dagger could have achieved just as easily.

I think some people are trying to be too clever in their interpretations tbh. The most likely explanation is usually the simplest. If Illyrio wanted rid of Dany then the simplest way would have been to "cut her throat and be done with it".

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I don't think that valuable dragon eggs are of consequence to wealthy Illyrio. No one knew they'd hatch to be dragons.

_________________________

I totally disagree. We are led to believe that the eggs themselves are worth a fortune, regardless of whether or not they were expected to hatch.

I forget the wording in the books but in the TV show Viserys says that one egg is worth a ship and two eggs would buy a ship and an army!! And this was when they thought the eggs were petrified.

I think a better question would be, if Illyrio is indeed so wealthy, why did he not simply buy Viserys an army?? Why would he need the Dothraki at all if he is that rich?

Also, what Viserys said (in the show at least) makes no sense at all...How on earth can a whole army be worth the same amount as a single ship?!?

When Jorah says "yet you have three eggs", Viserys replies "I need a large army"...This also makes no sense. How could he transport an entire (large) army to Westeros in only one ship?

:)

I think the Red Priests might have had a role in convincing Illyrio to give Dany the eggs. There was one at the event when Dany was introduced to Drogo. Maybe they weren't even Illyrio's eggs, but the red priests did not want to be see to be giving them directly because it would raise suspicions.
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Viserys was in the wrong. He was warned about Dothraki culture, Illyrio even wanted him to stay with him. Instead, his constant rudeness to Dany probably didn't make the Dothraki want to return the "gift" Drogo received. He kinda ruined it with his continued pestering.



On the other hand, they may well have never paid him back, if we take Aegon into account, Illyrio might brokered this to send Dany off to her death, and who knows what happens with Vis after this? Of course, the Golden company said they were planning on meeting Viserys with a Dothraki horde, so I think the Dothraki would have eventually returned the "gift" had Viserys not have been a royal pain in the ass and ruined it himself.


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I think the Red Priests might have had a role in convincing Illyrio to give Dany the eggs. There was one at the event when Dany was introduced to Drogo. Maybe they weren't even Illyrio's eggs, but the red priests did not want to be see to be giving them directly because it would raise suspicions.


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I guess it's possible but after 5 books there hasn't really been any hint that this is the case. In the absence of any clues/info to the contrary, I think we have to assume that Illyrio did in fact give Dany the eggs.



We may learn otherwise in due course but until then this is a bit of a stretch for me.


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