Ukraine and Russia where will this go? AKA Ukraine VIII

[Phaing]

What is called for now is a pro-Russia government taking over via armed revolution in Mexico, with strong anti American views and talk of joining a new Warsaw pact.

Just to see how "level headed" America reacts then.

.

It was about the Ukraine turning to the EU rather than Moscow, for the sake of Loans and Aid money.

The EU is anti-Russian?

Here's an interesting BBC story about the tensions between ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russians living in Latvia:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26720549

From the article:

Wow. That sounds like it's going no where good.

Once again.... looks like everyone on the planet opposed to the Domination of the men in the Kremlin has to be labeled a Nazi, no other option is ever allowed.

Guess they never heard of Godwin's law...

Why would they want to do that?

So that they could aviod selling their souls to the damned IMF for the same amount of money.

[Dicer]

This is hilarious.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-condemned-997/

'Against democratic principles’: EU’s Ashton denounces nationalists’ pressure on Ukraine parliament

The lawless actions of Ukraine's nationalists have finally caught attention of the intl community, with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton denouncing Right Sector for its ‘pressure’ and ‘undemocratic’ demand of the interior minister’s resignation.

A day after neo-Nazi activists who helped bring the acting government in Kiev to power turned against it, Ashton has issued a statement condemning the “pressure by activists of the Right Sector who have surrounded the building of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.”

This “intimidation” the EU foreign policy chief believes, stands against all “democratic principles and rule of law,” as Ashton called on the ultra-right group “to refrain from the use or threat of violence.”

Ashton stressed the need to “hand over any unauthorised arms to the authorities immediately.”

So when these guys were violently burning down buildings and attacking people and trying to storm parliament where Yanukovich's democratically elected government was holed up, the US and EU were all in support. Obama was in fact asking Yanukovich to remove the protection detail around the parliament building and let the mob in!

The Russians must be laughing themselves silly.

[Altherion]

Here's an interesting BBC story about the tensions between ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russians living in Latvia:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26720549

From the article:

Wow. That sounds like it's going no where good.

Calling them "Nazi sympathizers" is an understatement. Unlike the Bandera faction in Ukraine (which collaborated with Nazi Germany, but ultimately aimed for Ukrainian independence and wound up fighting both the Germans and the Russians), many of the Latvians who sided with Germany volunteered for and actively participated in the systematic murder of Jews, Gypsies and civilians in neighboring countries throughout the war. Wikipedia has several articles about this (here's one, here's another and here's a third). The Latvians out celebrating claim that they're doing it for a group that was exclusively fighting the Soviet Army, but few people buy this and even the Europeans have asked them to stop (it's rather embarrassing).

All of that said, this stuff is decades old. The Russians have been (and still are!) very angry about it, but there is no indication of them taking any action, particularly since Latvia is part of NATO.

[Lummel]

Here's an interesting BBC story about the tensions between ethnic Latvians and ethnic Russians living in Latvia:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26720549

...Wow. That sounds like it's going no where good.

This is nothing particularly new, ethnic Latvians honouring their war dead, including those men who served in the Waffen SS, with surviving members taking part in the ceremonies, has been the subject of protests from, in particular, ethnic Russians in Latvia more or less since independence.

The funny thing is that while the WWII generation served in the Waffen SS and local pro-Nazi Germany police units the WWI generation served in the pro-Russian Latvian rifles who were among the fiercest early supporters of the Bolsheviks. As Marshall Pilsudski didn't say: more than one tram runs past National Independence.

ETA though perhaps now that Putin has regained some of the regalia of the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire things will calm down:

When Russia annexed Crimea this month, it didn't just add 2 million people to its population and some disgruntled Ukrainian sailors to its navy. It may well have paved the way for Vladimir Putin to acquire the most prestigious dacha in the former Soviet Union.

The dacha complex in Yalta has long been the choice destination for Kremlin leaders to unwind. Stalin used to spend summer breaks strolling in the sprawling grounds of Yalta's Massandra Palace, now a museum and tourist attraction. And in 1991 it was in Crimea's Dacha No 3, in Foros Yalta, that the last Soviet president, Mikhail Gorbachev, was held under house arrest as his empire collapsed around him. Dacha No 1, also known as Wisteria, was owned by Nikita Khrushchev.

...

But since Crimea's annexation, local people expect the transfer of the property to Putin to be little more than a formality. Last week Crimea's new prime minister, Sergei Aksyonov, announced that all the property formerly owned by the Ukrainian state would be nationalised.

"Putin has his second shot at the dacha, and the goal is wide open," said Maik Lvovskiy, an investigative journalist who followed the 2004 paper trail that led all the way from Yalta to Moscow. "If he pursued it before, then I can't see why he wouldn't take it now; there are absolutely no obstacles in his way at all. He can pretty much walk straight through the front door," Lvovskiy said.

[Ser Reptitious]

What is called for now is a pro-Russia government taking over via armed revolution in Mexico, with strong anti American views and talk of joining a new Warsaw pact.

Just to see how "level headed" America reacts then.

It probably wouldn't react with invading, occupying, and annexing the Baja peninsula...

It would probably use some kind of carrot/stick combo to ensure that the new government is at least reasonably friendly to it, and failing that some kind of counter-coup might perhaps be engineered. Russia doing something along those lines would have been expected. It's the territorial land-grab that people didn't expect and can't really be legitimately justified (it was simply and blatantly opportunistic).

[sologdin]

So when these guys were violently burning down buildings and attacking people and trying to storm parliament where Yanukovich's democratically elected government was holed up, the US and EU were all in support. Obama was in fact asking Yanukovich to remove the protection detail around the parliament building and let the mob in!The Russians must be laughing themselves silly.

yeah, fascists typically only get in office through the collaboration of other reactionary groups. then they kick out the collaborators. but it's a little early for the "second revolution," isn't it?

[Ser Loudmouth]

What is called for now is a pro-Russia government taking over via armed revolution in Mexico, with strong anti American views and talk of joining a new Warsaw pact.

Just to see how "level headed" America reacts then.

Poor example. The new (presumably marxist) Mexican government is going to build a wall on the border to prevent its own citizens from fleeing to the US, which is exactly what US authorities always wanted to do but couldn't due to the fear of public outrage.

At this point I wonder why the US government isn't sponsoring a false flag operation to do just that.

[sologdin]

why would the mexico of the hypothetical be marxist?

[SkaggCannibal]

Ukraine's presidential elections are held on may 25th, coinciding with the European parliament elections. That's also on the same day as the Belgian general elections, and since here everything is in full campaign mode, I assume it must be the same in Ukraine. Maybe it's time to take a look at it?

Yulia Tymoshenko has confirmed she will run for president, although she seems to lack popular support. She also lacks Western support, who found her recent outbursts a little over the top and are betting on others candidates to serve their interests. Merkel-backed ex-boxer Klitschko has pulled out of the race and given his support to Mr. Poroshenko in a bid to unite the pro-western forces behind one candidate. This move lessens Yulia's chances even more. Maybe she's just running to eventually pull out, pledge her support to the most likely winner and get a nice position in the next government?

Mr. Poroshenko is at the moment the most likely candidate, with polls giving him a backing of 25%. He is, as all Ukrainian top-politicians seem to be, a highly succesful and billionaire bussinessman, dubbed the Chocolate King for his confectionery empire. The new CoP-candidate (same party as Yanukovich) is Mr. Tihipko, a banker. He has a following in the east and south-east, but is currently backed by 10% (according to polls). He actually seems pretty pro-West, with eventually seeing a place for Ukraine in the EU. You also have a communist and far-right Svoboda candidate and some independent outsiders. Mr. Poroshenko, the most likely winner, is also an independent candidate. He has strong views pro-NATO, which I assume will not fall well with Russia.

I gues there are some problems with the election, with the status of Crimea, the Russian refusal of recognising the election and that 2 months prior to the election, there still isn't a clear list of candidates. I'm not that familiar with presidential elections, but I am interested in how this is all gonna work out. Is that Poroshenko guy someone who can get Ukraine on the right track? Will Russia play an important role in this election? Interesting times in Ukraine.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It probably wouldn't react with invading, occupying, and annexing the Baja peninsula...

It would probably use some kind of carrot/stick combo to ensure that the new government is at least reasonably friendly to it, and failing that some kind of counter-coup might perhaps be engineered. Russia doing something along those lines would have been expected. It's the territorial land-grab that people didn't expect and can't really be legitimately justified (it was simply and blatantly opportunistic).

Yes, but here's the crux of the matter:

The US has more arrows in its quiver, hence has a greater number of strategic options than Russia. So they can achieve the same advantageous outcome because they have a gang of lickspittles in the G7 in their lap, without having to annex anything.

Russia does not have those options. So while both would seek the same outcome - which is strategic victory - Russia is condemned for using the tools at its disposal, while the US is not. The US fakes moral outrage at Russia's methods, simply because they have many other options to choose from that makes it unnecessary for them to use military force. This time around.

In other cases, though, the US happily makes use of muscle to achieve its strategic goals.

In the end, all that matters is achieving a strategic objective. Everything else is just "Words are wind".

[Ser Loudmouth]

why would the mexico of the hypothetical be marxist?

I'm quoting from the original hypothetical scenario:

pro-Russia government taking over via armed revolution in Mexico, with strong anti American views and talk of joining a new Warsaw pact.

- use violent revolution to take power

- Russian sponsored

- hate America

- are nostalgic about the Warsaw pact.

I wonder which ideology is most likely to fit this description...

The US has more arrows in its quiver, hence has a greater number of strategic options than Russia.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason that Russia has fewer strategic options is because of the poor choices it made all by itself?

What you are implying is that the US (and the other western powers) were stupid and wasted their time by developing any kind of soft power capabilities and that it would have been perfectly acceptable for them to use hard power (aka brute force) every single time, just like Russia does.

[Ser Loudmouth]

In other news: the Crimeean Tatars now want autonomy for themselves too:

http://news.yahoo.com/crimea-tatar-leader-wants-autonomy-russias-seizure-peninsula-112619705.html

[snake]

Once again.... looks like everyone on the planet opposed to the Domination of the men in the Kremlin has to be labeled a Nazi, no other option is ever allowed.

Guess they never heard of Godwin's law...

With the numerous comparisons of Putin to Hitler and Russia to Nazi Germany I think Godwin's Law has long been thrown out the window. lol

[Borque]

Godwin's law doesn't apply in Russia. The Duma never ratified it.

[Shryke]

With the numerous comparisons of Putin to Hitler and Russia to Nazi Germany I think Godwin's Law has long been thrown out the window. lol

In this case the comparisons make sense though, even if they are overblown. Even using the negative interpretation of Godwin's Law which so many seem to like, it still wouldn't apply here.

[Altherion]

yeah, fascists typically only get in office through the collaboration of other reactionary groups. then they kick out the collaborators. but it's a little early for the "second revolution," isn't it?

Everyone has read the same history books though. The Right Sector was instrumental in overthrowing Yanukovich, but they have no support from anyone at all -- Putin uses them as scarecrows, Nuland and Ashton have condemned them in the strongest terms and they'd be lucky to get 5% of the vote in the upcoming Ukrainian election. After the Ukrainian government decided to go with "You have outlived your usefulness!" and, depending on whom you ask, either attempted to arrest or outright executed one of the Right Sector leaders, the fascists have to know that their days in power are numbered. They might not have any support, but they do have over a thousand well-armed men (they looted the armories of police and army units that abandoned Yanukovich) in the capital. It'll be interesting to see how they will be dealt with.

[Kungsmurfen]

Vice dispatch twenty.

[sologdin]

- use violent revolution to take power

- Russian sponsored

- hate America

- are nostalgic about the Warsaw pact.

I wonder which ideology is most likely to fit this description...

none of that is intrinsic to marxism, and hating 'america' is not even incidental.

[Horza]

indeed. Marx wasn't an America-hater at all - he nearly became a Texan.

[Eponine]

KREM RUSSIYA SOKU ZEREYESHU

THIS HAS BEEN A LESSON IN YELLING THINGS IN RUSSION WHILE DRUNK

I WILL NOT REMEMBER THIS TOMORROW