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[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III


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Garin's kingdom didn't go to Nymeria---the whole point was that Garin was defeated by the Valyrians, which caused Nymeria to be kicked out of their kingdom. (I don't think it's ever even been stated how Nymeria was related to Garin. She could have been his wife, his daughter, his sister, or even his mother.) Izembaro quotes Garin here, and Izembaro calls himself the King (of the mummers). This is Arya's chapter, and it opened with Arya awakening from "being" Nymeria. If you're going to look for foreshadowing here, then the clear Nymeria reference here is Arya, not Dany. If Garin's death caused Nymeria to flee to Westeros, then Izembaro's choice to associate himself with Garin could be a hint that Izembaro's death will be what causes Arya to flee (either from the Gate or to Westeros).

Oh you! Hey wait a minute... That could like be a thing. Like if Izembaro does catch the flak of Raff's death and gets killed for his troubles.

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Tyrion is in Phario’s play "Bloody Hand" as Richard III is in Shakespeare's play "Richard III", Comically misrepresented as an evil mastermind. Martin has paralleled the opening act mostly, with an added Faustian bargain. The Tyrion and Richard III parallel grows ever stronger.

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Your post relied on the idea that Nymeria got her kingdom from Garin. Not only did she not get her literal kingdom from him (as his death forced her to leave that kingdom), but the idea that her authority in any way derived from him is actually pure speculation. And the fact that Nymeria didn't get the Rhoynish lands after Garin's death contradicts the idea that her story can be taken to hint that any Nymeria parallel will get Arianne's "region". Frankly, the way you tie this outside source to ASOIAF, and then try to tie that to the story of Garin and Nymeria, just doesn't hold water. Trying to analogize Arianne to Garin via in-story examples would be worthwhile. Trying to analogize Arianne to Garin via such an incredibly convoluted (and not even in-story) path just doesn't make sense. Parallels don't have to be perfect, but they need more than this to be said to exist.

And as Apple stated, going to an outside source in the first place for foreshadowing is extremely problematic.

I never said she derived her power from him, but that the Rhoynish followed her after he was defeated. Dany wouldn't derive her power from Arianne. Dany will already carry her people to Westeros on ships so that part of the parallel will have been done with, and like Nymeria could still subdue Dorne. Also, as for Nymeria losing her kingdom along the Rhoyne, she still holds the kingdom after Garin's capture, albeit briefly, and Dany will lose her kingdom when R+L=J is revealed likely not long after the second Dance and Dorne is subdued.

Doesn't hold water? The opportunity for it hasn't come to pass yet, so I would reserve judgement until then.

It wouldn't be the first time GRRM used a literary reference as foreshadowing.

They [Marsh and Co] have a hungry look to them.

Julius Caesar Act I, Scene 2:

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.

Ides of Marsh

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Seriously... What's the deal with the "keyholders"?! And why does Arya have a secret key?

And Phario Forel is just too much. Someone explain and/or theorize for me please!

Phario, Syrio's brother, is going to meet Meryn Trant and say, "My name is Phario Forel, you killed my brother. Prepare to die!" And so ends Meryn Trant of the King's Gaurd.

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Tyrion is in Phario’s play "Bloody Hand" as Richard III is in Shakespeare's play "Richard III", Comically misrepresented as an evil mastermind. Martin has paralleled the opening act mostly, with an added Faustian bargain. The Tyrion and Richard III parallel grows ever stronger.

It wouldn't be the first time GRRM used a literary reference as foreshadowing.

They [Marsh and Co] have a hungry look to them.

Julius Caesar Act I, Scene 2:

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.

Yup. Another reason why we call it the Ides of Marsh. :cool4:

And the Frey Pies make another great shout-out (to Titus Andronicus in this case).

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Interesting exchange between Bobono and the Stranger. The way Marro is described -- black face and ivory horns -- is similar to Moqorro, as is the name. Considering the deal Bobono makes with him, this could hint at Moqorro being the key to helping Tyrion ride a dragon. Not that there was any more foreshadowing needed with regards to Tyrion riding a dragon, but the Moqorro part could be significant--as in he's only helping Vic until Tyrion turns up again.


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I never said she derived her power from him, but that the Rhoynish followed her after he was defeated. Dany wouldn't derive her power from Arianne. Dany will already carry her people to Westeros on ships so that part of the parallel will have been done with, and like Nymeria could still subdue Dorne. Also, as for Nymeria losing her kingdom along the Rhoyne, she still holds the kingdom after Garin's capture, albeit briefly, and Dany will lose her kingdom when R+L=J is revealed likely not long after the second Dance and Dorne is subdued.

Fire Eater,

You're arguing that Dany would be taking power in Dorne from Arianne. For that situation to parallel Nymeria and Garin with Dany as Nymeria and Arianne as Garin, Nymeria would have to have had to take power that she did not previously have from Garin. There is no evidence that was the case. Though that's rather irrelevant to my larger point, because my real issue with your parallel is that it tries to tie Arianne to Garin in a way that simply makes no sense.

Were you trying to argue that Arianne represents Garin via in-story examples, that would be one thing. But you try to argue that two quotes in two different works which say different things and mean different things are meant to directly parallel two characters. "It shall go ill for any man who fails me" is not the same quote as "Nay but you must not fail me, or it will go ill with me." The former quote indicates danger specifically to the man who fails Garin, not to Garin himself. The latter quote indicates danger specifically to Mary Lohring because of someone else's failure. These are two different quotes with different meanings.

And even if these quotes were the same, trying to argue that Arianne represents Mary Lohring, and therefore Arianne also represents Garin, because Mary Lohring said something similar to Garin, simply makes no sense. To use your own example: this is like arguing that because Caesar is the one who says Cassius has "a lean and hungry look" in Julius Caesar, then our Caesar figure in ASOIAF must obviously be Dolorous Edd, because Dolorous Edd is the person who says that Marsh et al have "a hungry look about them". In fact, Jon specifically thinks to himself, "Hungry was not the word Jon would have used." Ergo, Jon cannot be our Caesar figure.

See how that falls apart? Even assuming that the Garin reference was meant to directly refer to a random line in The White Company (which, as I state here, I see no reason to do), you really cannot assume that the person stating that line in the outside work lines up with the person stating that line in ASOIAF. As your own example shows, GRRM doesn't write that way.

They [Marsh and Co] have a hungry look to them.

Julius Caesar Act I, Scene 2:

Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look.

In addition to what I stated above: the play Julius Caesar directly references the events of Jon's stabbing. (And in-story, "hungry look" is used elsewhere to reference brothers killing brothers, just as Jon is killed by his "brothers". Bran uses it for Theon, and we know what Theon tried to do. Renly applies it to Sandor when the Hound rides against the Mountain, and we know Sandor wants to kill Gregor.) You've provided no evidence that the plot of The White Company has anything to do with the story of Garin and Nymeria. You argue that the story parallels the Golden Company/Aegon/Arianne situation, but provide nothing tying it to Garin/Nymeria except for a single quote that differs in content and meaning from the ASOIAF quote and which, logically, could not be assumed to tie Garin to Arianne even if the quotes were direct. You would need strong evidence tying Arianne to Garin (and let's not forget that Dany is hardly our only potential Nymeria figure), and this is just too remote.

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Tyrion is in Pharios play "Bloody Hand" as Richard III is in Shakespeare's play "Richard III", Comically misrepresented as an evil mastermind. Martin has paralleled the opening act mostly, with an added Faustian bargain. The Tyrion and Richard III parallel grows ever stronger.

Nice catch!

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and leaves the monastery with John of Hordle (Jon Connington),

No! Jon Hordle is a giant and a scoundrel, a 'salt of the earth' kind of guy who leaves the monastery because he is too big and boisterous to be allowed, likes laughter and pranks, has some prejudice but is good and loyal to his friends.

That can't be Jon Connington. Though I had lold when I mentally replaced Jon Hordle with Connington and replayed the novel. Maybe Duck.

Apple Martini,

I think there are some Cersei-Black Pearl parallels being made:

- we have Lady Stork playing a queen wearing a golden gown

- we have Black Pearl wearing a low-cut gown of pale yellow silk, startling against the light brown of her skin. Her black hair was bound up in a net of spun gold, and a jet-and-gold necklace brushed against the top of her full breasts.

- older guard saying Who’d go back to that, when he has his sooty queen?”

- Cersei being connected to gold, through her house colors, jewlery and her hair

or maybe golden gown is a Bravosi way to signify 'I am the f*** queen' and that is what Black Pearl is saying to everybody :)

ETA: did anybody else find it funny that Daena and Mercy behaved like they saw Beyonce or (this is an old example) Britney?

Phario, Syrio's brother, is going to meet Meryn Trant and say, "My name is Phario Forel, you killed my brother. Prepare to die!" And so ends Meryn Trant of the King's Gaurd.

lololol but I'd rather he kill him with his bloody pen TBH

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The FM supposedly serve death.The fact that the people Arya wishes dead always end up in her path would be a good arguing point that Death wants her to give them the gift.They cant really argue with that now can they?Arya is not seeking these people out therefore it must be Death that puts them in her path.

This I agree with

It was Arya's unknowing prayers to the death god that bought her to Jaquen's attention

Him (the death god) putting some of those names in her path that steered her to Bravos

And her bargain with him, she will serve him if he will serve up the remainder of those names

She will return to the HoBaW, The kindly man will tut and then send her on a new assignment

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If Shadowcat comes back in here were you talking about Mercedene ->Mercedes?

Yes, that's what I was thinking about. The Mercy persona is inspired of people she knew in the innocent past (AGOT Sansa and/or Jayne) while she, Arya, is becoming a Monte Christo figure. Not an exact parallel, but when I read the name Mercedene, the association came spontaneously.

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I've just read this comment by Martin on the last post about Mercy on his blog:





I do rewrite quite a bit... well, after 1982, anyway... but I must admit, I did a lot more on FEAST and DANCE than anything before them. And not just polishes, but major restructings, like getting rid of the five-year gap, and my endless attempts to make that one Tyrion chapter work... (it never did). Those two books were bears.


So far, I have not done anywhere near as much rewriting on WINDS... but of course, it is not done yet.




Is it tongue-in-cheek? He first compares an unfinished book with two published ones but then qualifies what he said by pointing out "it is not done yet". A man can dream...



Or is he just saying he's not even close to finishing? :bawl:


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Little points of interest:

checked the trick daggers just to make certain no one had replaced one with a real blade
- something like this has happened in George Eliots 'Middlemarch' IIRC in the backstory of one of the doctors it is said that he was in love with an actress who accidentally killed her husband during a play because the dagger was real, but not really, she had had enough of him (if I did not misremember). Could be that both Georges (heh) are referring to a common trope?

The Gate’s stage had developed a tilt as the building settled, their costumes were prone to mildew, and water snakes nested in the flooded cellar, but none of that troubled the mummers so long as the house was full.
- okay this reminds me of the Phantom of the Opera PTerry's Masquerade with a theatre that has a flooded cellar

Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”
- And this reminds me of PTerrys Jingo

In the fog all cats are grey, Mercy thought. In the fog all men are killers.

- I wonder if anybody else got Jack The Ripper vibes from this? The foggy slums, the luring of the victim, the throat slitting... Arya/No-one is like an inversion.

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Regarding that iron key - isn't Arya supposed to work at night at the temple? With people who came asking for the gift, employing herself with their bodies afterwards?

Could it just be that the key is there to help her attend her primary duties as efficiently as possible? Have a key, sneak in, sneak out...

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