Appreciating Daenerys as Villain

[Belisarius09]

I've now seen Daenerys compared to Hitler, Sauron, Lucifer, and Pol Pot. All I can do is shake my head and laugh at some of the ridiculous things people type.

Ridiculous how? In that their stories are believable?

Take religion out of the equation and the bible is a literary work. Lucifer's story is a sad one. He was the favorite, and he fell from grace. A tragic figure as ghosts put it. You're telling me you don't see any similarities between the two? Dany has certainly been a fan favorite for quite some time. A portion of the fan base has viewed her more recent actions in less than favorable light, that much you must admit even if you don't hold her in any lower standing yourself.

Dany potentially fits the mold quite well, and whats more we see her do it. We see in her mind, we see her reasoning. No one ever goes in thinking "I'm doing this to be the bad guy huehuehue." The best villains always think what they're doing is right. Antagonists are better received when they're believable like this.

For example Hitler believed he was doing the world a favor by wiping out the jews whom he viewed as a parasite on the world. Obviously he was wrong, but in his mind he was doing the right thing. Dany isn't committing her actions thinking "I'm going to be the villain." She's tragically making mistakes in her attempts to help both herself, and the people around her. She fits perfectly. Similarly Lucifer and Sauron both thought they what they were doing the right thing. They all fell from grace. These tragedies make for good literature.

When it comes to Dany, I see her invasion of a continent as her fall from Grace. Everyone assumes She is going to roast the others at the trident because of the HOTU visions. When it comes to GRRM one should expect the unexpected. We know invasions on such a massive scale as Dany's would result in many innocent lives lost. Furthermore we know characters who would be opposed to her invasion. Conflict is inevitable, it isn't going to be all sunshine and roses. GRRM could easily depict Dany as the villain when time comes for her invasion of Westeros. It would undoubtedly make for an interesting read.

You may not agree but then you don't have to. This in my opinion would work, and I'm saying I could appreciate Dany as a villain, which is what the thread is asking us. If you can't relate then why bother posting.

[Nictarion]

How do you go from calling her a sympathetic villain to Hitler? If you don't see how drastic that gap is, there's really nothing to discuss.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Yeah..let's not slot real people into these simplistic dichotomies. Also, a lot of you seem to be confusing "villain" with "antagonist".

[Nictarion]

Yeah..let's not slot real people into these simplistic dichotomies. Also, a lot of you seem to be confusing "villain" with "antagonist".

Exactly. It's been obvious since book one Dany will be an antagonist to some of the characters in Westeros once she arrives, that doesn't make her a villain.

[Metopheles]

I've now seen Daenerys compared to Lucifer

There's nothing similar between Dany and Lucifer.

Well, both have an affinity with fire, both remain unharmed by fire, love lizard like creatures, that's about it, but there are links ;)

Oh and if Dany is some Azor or promised prince, then the more. Lucifer, latin for Lightbringer, literally. Jon Snow might become Mephostophilis, the "non-light-loving"....

haha....

[Metopheles]

It really is ridiculous, personally I think she is more like Stalin.

:cool4:

Or Mao, given that millions follow her blindly.

But really, personally, she is more of a Gandhi to me, can't really say why, just pops into my head...coughcough

:D

[SeanF]

I think Martin has said his series would have no Dark Lord, so I don't think Dany could become Sauron, even if Sauron was well-intentioned to begin with.

[Metopheles]

I think Martin has said his series would have no Dark Lord, so I don't think Dany could become Sauron, even if Sauron was well-intentioned to begin with.

But wouldn't it be kinda cool if Dany ends up in some leather outfit with long cloak and spiky shoulder pads and a cane or staff and long ugly fingernails.. like the most horrible idea of a disney villain..

I think, if, if Dany becomes a villain in the eyes of even the greatest Dany-fan, and not only Stanners and Stark fans, then she would be like Darth Vader, the seduced hero that becomes evil to achieve good, or protect the ones she loves, only to be ashamed of herself for her actions, and then be "healed" by a family member thought to be dead.

[SeanF]

But wouldn't it be kinda cool if Dany ends up in some leather outfit with long cloak and spiky shoulder pads and a cane or staff and long ugly fingernails.. like the most horrible idea of a disney villain..

I think, if, if Dany becomes a villain in the eyes of even the greatest Dany-fan, and not only Stanners and Stark fans, then she would be like Darth Vader, the seduced hero that becomes evil to achieve good, or protect the ones she loves, only to be ashamed of herself for her actions, and then be "healed" by a family member thought to be dead.

One could add, cackling insanely, and seducing a succession of men and women and then torturing them to death, when she made no more use to them.

Joking aside, if Dany did become truly evil, (as opposed to her current morally grey status) I think she would still be convinced she was righteous.

[Metopheles]

Other Question :

Do you think she would keep the Iron Throne (the symbol of suppression) or would she rather have her dragons melt it to a lake of silvery metal on the throne room and place her meereenese ebony bench in the molten iron, as symbol of more equality. Because when she came to Meereen she removed the ugly ornate throne and wanted something more modest... ?

[Belisarius09]

Obviously there is a big gap between dany and Hitler. Keep in mind I didn't bring up that comparison, you did.

Exactly. It's been obvious since book one Dany will be an antagonist to some of the characters in Westeros once she arrives, that doesn't make her a villain.

"Villain" is a term that is applied entirely dependant on one's point of view. So clearly, she would be seen as a villain to those characters she is an antagonist to.

I don't get what you're saying here, unless you're talking about how would the reader perceive her? In which case again it varies depending on the reader. You think she can do no wrong, others like myself see some flaws.

I'll reiterate this. I don't know what your point is. The OP asked us if we could appreciate Dany as a villain. I answered that I could. Why you feel the need to comment on my answer is beyond me.

Since I see nothing to gain from holding further discourse with you I'll end it there.

Now to answer Meopheles new question. Regardless of the ruler I don't really see the IT remaining.

1. It's too inconvenient of an object for sitting.

2. As a figurative device, the IT is a symbol of oppression, and these books have delved into the consequences of rule through oppression. The instability of the realm, the loss of respect for the monarch, I see Westeros being split up into 7 again or at the very least an independent North. I don't see the IT remaining as the symbol of power it once was.

3. Taking into consideration Dany's choice of seat in Merreen, I find it unlikely she would choose to sit in it. She'd prefer to sit on something more modest.

Now on the other hand...

1. Dany has been seeking her birthright for 5 books now, maybe she'd keep the IT simply due to its symbolic value for her family and their history.

[Cas Stark]

Other Question :

Do you think she would keep the Iron Throne (the symbol of suppression) or would she rather have her dragons melt it to a lake of silvery metal on the throne room and place her meereenese ebony bench in the molten iron, as symbol of more equality. Because when she came to Meereen she removed the ugly ornate throne and wanted something more modest... ?

Her one over arching goal since she married Drogo has been the Iron Throne. Why would you think she will melt it down? The Iron Throne, to her, isn't a symbol of suppression, but of her Targaryen heritage and of her "right" to it.

[RoamingRonin]

Let's see:

Stannis Baratheon - False Azor Ahai

Aegon / Illyrio / Varys / the Golden Company - Mummer's Dragon

The Lannisters

The Tyrells

Littlefinger

. . .

If any of these people consider Dany a villain then I truly don't care. I can't think of any other power-players that could/want to resist her besides perhaps Dorne.

Not her fault Quentyn walked into the dragon-pit like "What's up?". I'll laugh my butt off if Arianne decides she wants vengeance for Quentyn after spending half her life resenting him and conspiring to usurp his title. Funny, that.

Maybe Dany might try to burn down Riverrun... but then again the Freys hold the Riverlands. There are so darn many of them. There's really only one way to solve that problem.

Then there's the Reach. The Golden Company seems to have influence there. I can't be bothered to sympathize with a region that's not even loyal to their own liege lord. Such disloyalty. Much high treason. Wow.

Littlefinger holds the Vale. Poor Sansa. This is the one region I do have feelings for. They are good, noble people. If they know better, they'll stay out of the fighting like they've done this whole time. If not... Well. They better choose wisely.

Yes. I know. The innocent people. But if you truly care about the poor innocents of Westeros, you'd want Stannis to stop fighting too. But he's going to the bitter end and so is Dany.

Cliffs:

- My problem with the "Dany as a villain" argument is that her enemies are already villains.

- Would you like some villains with your villains? Or maybe a villain topped with villain? Sprinkled with some anti-hero? With a slice of antagonist?

[Metopheles]

Her one over arching goal since she married Drogo has been the Iron Throne. Why would you think she will melt it down? The Iron Throne, to her, isn't a symbol of suppression, but of her Targaryen heritage and of her "right" to it.

1. It's too inconvenient of an object for sitting.

2. As a figurative device, the IT is a symbol of oppression, and these books have delved into the consequences of rule through oppression. The instability of the realm, the loss of respect for the monarch, I see Westeros being split up into 7 again or at the very least an independent North. I don't see the IT remaining as the symbol of power it once was.

3. Taking into consideration Dany's choice of seat in Merreen, I find it unlikely she would choose to sit in it. She'd prefer to sit on something more modest.

Now on the other hand...

1. Dany has been seeking her birthright for 5 books now, maybe she'd keep the IT simply due to its symbolic value for her family and their history.

I think a major aspect is that it only seats one. If Dany would end up with Jon or whoever, Martin would make them equal rulers, and I don't think Jonny would sit in his auntie's lap.

And I think, keeping the metal as "mirror" on the floor, to catch the light and also reflect (ha..) I think that would be enough. The again, if Aegon ruled with his three sisters, where were they seated ? Cersei style on a chair next to it ?

Mirror, mirror, on the floor,

The Targaryens are restored.

[lame, I know.]

Plus I think the major part of me believing the "Ebony Bench", not only because it sounds hardcore (Queen on the Ebony Bench), but also because of the modesty. The last king(s) on the IT were all decadent beyond compare and now comes a fair lady and is modest... In our politics this is always something that is welcome. Change.

And the heritage. I think having three dragons, the Red Keep, King's Landing, the Throne Room, the line restored, guess this one piece can go. Maybe she moves the Map Table from Dragonstone into the hall.. would be cool. And this is really what started the Targaryen Conquest, the Map Table.