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Rhaegar fighting Robert


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#1 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:04 AM

Why would Rhaegar engage Robert with a sword when both of them wore full body armor?

 

That kind of armor is made to defend effectively against swords and similar weapons. To counter that, blunt weapons like warhammers were used to essentially shatter rips, break limbs or even deform the armor enough so the enemy gets trapped in his own armor and suffocates.

 

What I'm getting at is why did Rhaegar bring a knife to a gunfight?

 

 

 



#2 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:07 AM

If Rhaegar killed Robert the story would have been much shorter...

Really though, Rhaeger might have just been unlucky that Robert's prefered weapon happens to do better against full plate than Rhaegar's.



#3 Kienn

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:10 AM

Rhaegar managed to severely injure Robert so looks like his weapon worked decently, just not well enough.

Whether that's believable is ehhh. But hammers just aren't as cool as swords so fantasy likes to use swords whenever possible.

#4 Boarsbane

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

Rhaegar probably didn't think it mattered what weapon he used, he was destined to win. Or not.

#5 MyLittleFinger

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:14 AM

Why would Rhaegar engage Robert with a sword when both of them wore full body armor?

 

That kind of armor is made to defend effectively against swords and similar weapons. To counter that, blunt weapons like warhammers were used to essentially shatter rips, break limbs or even deform the armor enough so the enemy gets trapped in his own armor and suffocates.

 

What I'm getting at is why did Rhaegar bring a knife to a gunfight?

 

 

 

He is the chosen one, destined to end the rebellion, raise his three kids to be the three heads of the dragon and save the world! 

 

"Ouch my chest"

 

In all seriousness though, some warriors have preferred weapons or are simply better with one than the other (Balon Swann = Morningstar, Robert = Hammer, Oberyn = Spear, Loras = Lance etc.)



#6 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

For story purposes and coolness factor I can agree.

 

My in-universe explanation was that he was either too arrogant or so melancholic that he was borderline suicidal, which wouldn't make any sense though.

 

Maybe he underestimated a pissed off Robert. According to most sources he was a beast.



#7 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:17 AM

He is the chosen one, destined to end the rebellion, raise his three kids to be the three heads of the dragon and save the world! 

 

"Ouch my chest"

 

In all seriousness though, some warriors have preferred weapons or are simply better with one than the other (Balon Swann = Morningstar, Robert = Hammer, Oberyn = Spear, Loras = Lance etc.)

 

This crossed my mind too, but wouldn't a good warrior know when to choose the correct weapon? For Robert the hammer worked probably great for any enemy since Ned even mentions that he lifted that hammer like other people swords.



#8 MyLittleFinger

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

 

This crossed my mind too, but wouldn't a good warrior know when to choose the correct weapon? For Robert the hammer worked probably great for any enemy since Ned even mentions that he lifted that hammer like other people swords.

Maybe, though it seems that they met in the heat of the battle so does he realistically have time to go "Ah shit a hammer, better pull out my flail?" 



#9 James Kidd

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:22 AM

Heavy weapons (warhammers, morningstars) aren't all that chivalrous, even if they're much more effective against full-plate. Most of the southerners fought in battle with swords, I don't think that Rhaegar's weapon of choice was inappropriate. Oberyn killed an opponent as such with a spear and for swords there is always the Mordschlag.


Edited by James Kidd, 29 March 2014 - 11:30 AM.


#10 Boarsbane

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:22 AM

This crossed my mind too, but wouldn't a good warrior know when to choose the correct weapon? For Robert the hammer worked probably great for any enemy since Ned even mentions that he lifted that hammer like other people swords.


Rhaegar wasn't really a good warrior, he was a skilled fighter but he had never faced men in battle until the Trident. Rhaegar might of participated in melees but it isn't the same, Robert knows what works best for killing men because he has, Rhaegar doesn't.

Edited by Boarsbane, 29 March 2014 - 11:24 AM.


#11 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:41 AM

Maybe, though it seems that they met in the heat of the battle so does he realistically have time to go "Ah shit a hammer, better pull out my flail?" 

 

My point was that word has probably gotten around that Robert uses a hammer, so Rhaegar should have prepared accordingly when he rode out to Trident.

 

Heavy weapons (warhammers, morningstars) aren't all that chivalrous, even if they're much more effective against full-plate. Most of the southerners fought in battle with swords, I don't think that Rhaegar's weapon of choice was inappropriate. Oberyn killed an opponent as such with a spear and for swords there is always the Mordschlag.

 

Of course I think that the choice was more symbolic from GRRM's part. The boisterous, furious stag rushes to battle against the elegant, sleek dragon.

 

Rhaegar wasn't really a good warrior, he was a skilled fighter but he had never faced men in battle until the Trident. Rhaegar might of participated in melees but it isn't the same, Robert knows what works best for killing men because he has, Rhaegar doesn't.

 

I think the main difference was sheer strength in this case. Not sure, but didn't Robert mention that he killed his first men in the rebellion? Or was that just in the show? (sometimes I confuse the two) And even then Rhaegar was probably more intelligent than Robert, so he should have least known his chances.

 

Still we heard only the worst about Rhaegar from Robert and the very best from other people, he was never really in a real grey area. Could it be that his choice of weapon is a subtle hint that he was not as modest as most people make him out to be?


Edited by Stormland's Fury, 29 March 2014 - 11:43 AM.


#12 Formerly Tetrarch42

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:45 AM

Heavy weapons (warhammers, morningstars) aren't all that chivalrous, even if they're much more effective against full-plate. Most of the southerners fought in battle with swords, I don't think that Rhaegar's weapon of choice was inappropriate. Oberyn killed an opponent as such with a spear and for swords there is always the Mordschlag.

 

We haven't seen the murderstroke used at all in Planetos though.



#13 JonCon's Red Beard

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:46 AM

Everybody knew Robert had a hammer but what could have Rhaegar done? Ask for a hammer as well and learn to handle properly in two hours? Surely he choose the weapon he felt he was more able to use and he knew better. Oberyn did had a good chance with the lance, Rhaegar could have had one as well. But Robert was in full "omg you rape mah lyannaaaa!" mode. Probably didn't care about chivalry or anything at the moment.



#14 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:54 AM

Everybody knew Robert had a hammer but what could have Rhaegar done? Ask for a hammer as well and learn to handle properly in two hours? Surely he choose the weapon he felt he was more able to use and he knew better. Oberyn did had a good chance with the lance, Rhaegar could have had one as well. But Robert was in full "omg you rape mah lyannaaaa!" mode. Probably didn't care about chivalry or anything at the moment.

 

As the crown prince he probably had some training in blunt weapons like maces etc., doesn't have to be hammer. I am sure Robert could also handle a sword if he had to. Oberyn perfected the lance of course and was also more experienced than either Rhaegar or Robert at that point.

 

But yeah a revenge driven teenager with a healthy libido who likes to smash things to pulp with a hammer is a dangerous adversary for even the most seasoned warrior.



#15 Boarsbane

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:17 PM

I think the main difference was sheer strength in this case. Not sure, but didn't Robert mention that he killed his first men in the rebellion? Or was that just in the show? (sometimes I confuse the two) And even then Rhaegar was probably more intelligent than Robert, so he should have least known his chances.
 
Still we heard only the worst about Rhaegar from Robert and the very best from other people, he was never really in a real grey area. Could it be that his choice of weapon is a subtle hint that he was not as modest as most people make him out to be?


He did kill his first man in the rebellion most likely, although he could of killed some hill tribesmen while fostering in the Vale, but the rebellion had been going on for a year before the Trident and Robert had been fighting since the start. Rhaegar is more book smart than Robert and overall more intelligent, but that doesn't mean much in battle. War was what Robert was good at.

#16 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:59 PM

True, but exactly because Rhaegar was supposed to be book smart makes it even worse. Either he was that disillusioned that he thought he could beat Robert in his own element or he knew he would die.

But he seemed to cultivate the image of a classical romantic and maybe wanted just to fight like a noble knight, but got crushed. Jorah Mormont hinted at this.

 

No matter the reason, it makes Rhaegar look not as competent, as many people like him to be. Could the battle be a hint that Rhaegar would have lost it if he grow older? The Targs seem to have a predisposition for a superiority complex, so it would not have been out of the question.



#17 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:59 PM

 

My point was that word has probably gotten around that Robert uses a hammer, so Rhaegar should have prepared accordingly when he rode out to Trident.

It's unlikely that Rhaegar intended to fight Robert head-on. His weapon was fine for self-defense, as that's the only reason the commander should wear a weapon at all.

 

I think the main difference was sheer strength in this case. Not sure, but didn't Robert mention that he killed his first men in the rebellion? Or was that just in the show? (sometimes I confuse the two) And even then Rhaegar was probably more intelligent than Robert, so he should have least known his chances.

Must be the show. But it's likely. Unfortunately for Rhaegar, Robert had been killing men continuously for a year, while he had played the harp and faced his first real fight ever.

 

Still we heard only the worst about Rhaegar from Robert and the very best from other people, he was never really in a real grey area. Could it be that his choice of weapon is a subtle hint that he was not as modest as most people make him out to be?

The guy was a freaking nutcase.



#18 Stormland's Fury

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:11 PM

 

 

My point was that word has probably gotten around that Robert uses a hammer, so Rhaegar should have prepared accordingly when he rode out to Trident.

It's unlikely that Rhaegar intended to fight Robert head-on. His weapon was fine for self-defense, as that's the only reason the commander should wear a weapon at all.

 

I think the main difference was sheer strength in this case. Not sure, but didn't Robert mention that he killed his first men in the rebellion? Or was that just in the show? (sometimes I confuse the two) And even then Rhaegar was probably more intelligent than Robert, so he should have least known his chances.

Must be the show. But it's likely. Unfortunately for Rhaegar, Robert had been killing men continuously for a year, while he had played the harp and faced his first real fight ever.

 

Still we heard only the worst about Rhaegar from Robert and the very best from other people, he was never really in a real grey area. Could it be that his choice of weapon is a subtle hint that he was not as modest as most people make him out to be?

The guy was a freaking nutcase.

 

 

Good points, but Robert was also a commander and he certainly didn't use his hammer for self defense. He enjoyed killing. I wonder if Robert was Rhaegar's first (and last) real fight? I mean Robert could have personally sought out Rhaegar on the battlefield and everything would have made much more sense.

 

The guy was a freaking nutcase.

 

Very likely. Or at least in the beginning stage. I am convinced that the Targaryen gene pool was pretty much damaged beyond repair. Aerys has gone bye bye. The only two living Targs we've seen were Vyserys and Dany, the former was an entitled maniac, and the latter starts to lose grip on reality by the day. So it would have not looked good for Rhaeggy.



#19 Bright Blue Eyes

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:27 PM

 

Good points, but Robert was also a commander and he certainly didn't use his hammer for self defense. He enjoyed killing.

We do know that the brains behind the battles, the de-facto commanders, were Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. Robert was just the figurehead they placed on the throne afterwards.

 

I wonder if Robert was Rhaegar's first (and last) real fight?

No. Robert had slain Marq Grafton in Gulltown after being the first man on the walls, killed Lord Fell at Summerhall and killed Myles Mooton and gone toe to toe with JonCon at the Battle of the Bells. And that are just his named enemies.

 

I mean Robert could have personally sought out Rhaegar on the battlefield and everything would have made much more sense.

Very likely. Or Rhaegar tried to rally his losing side by riding into combat personally. He had already lost the Dornish, an entire flank was routed.

 

 

The guy was a freaking nutcase.

 

Very likely. Or at least in the beginning stage. I am convinced that the Targaryen gene pool was pretty much damaged beyond repair. Aerys has gone bye bye. The only two living Targs we've seen were Vyserys and Dany, the former was an entitled maniac, and the latter starts to lose grip on reality by the day. So it would have not looked good for Rhaeggy.

Indeed. But it's his actions that seal the deal for me. The entire clusterfuck with Lyanna was bound to lead to a civil war, with the other side being the stronger one, from the start. At best, Elia's and Lyanna's side of the family would have tried to murder each other for the next century or two.



#20 The Idle Raven

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:34 PM

Someone may have already stated this, but is there any references in the books to Rhaegar using a Valyrian Steel sword? As heir to the throne he would certainly have been able to get hold of one.  Rhaegar's use of such a weapon would help to explain how he managed to severely injure Robert.