Regarding Bowen Marsh Stabbing thingie

[Unlady B]

Ok, I have already asked this question in the Small Question Thread some time ago, but I was not satisfied with the answer I got, so, I open this question again.

It has nothing to do with who wrote the Pink Letter, but what it set to motion.

When Jon decided to march south, WHY did Bowen Marsh stabbed Jon at the Wall???

Before answering, let's see the panorama:

From the answers I got from SQT, Jon decided to march south not because of "Arya" herserlf, whom by the PL had somehow been freed and missing, but because Ramsey threatened the NW itself. Castle Black has no inner walls to protect it from a southern attack, so, as we have seen before with the Karstark's case, Jon decided to meet him first before reaching his domain.

As far as that, we can agree that Jon is working in the NW's best interest by marching south, and sending to the most perilous mission the wildlings to defend/rescue, alas, more wildlings at Hardhome.

If we think that Jon's messing with kingdom's matters like marrying Karstark to Thenn is too much, then, we can agree that Jon deciding to march south is the straw that broke the camel's back.

So, why did Bowen Marsh killed Jon right then??

If he had carried on, he could have gotten rid of Jon and the wildlings BOTH.

Kill Jon while marching south, make it pass as a war/field death, and nobody will ask twice, and a new commander's election will be held soon.

Let the wildlings march to Hardhome and let them rot themselves there.

There will always be time to deal with the other wildlings remaining at the other forts.

And of course, winter is coming to kill off a great deal of people.

So, was Bowen Marsh that stupid to try and kill Jon surrounded by people that supported him (black brothers and wildlings), and never considered that if he wanted to be succesful he only had to wait till they marched south?

I know that Martin wanted to leaves us with the cliffhanger of Jon's death. But the whole situation makes no matter to me. I really CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY JON GOT STABBED AT THE WALL.

So please, wise posters, bring your wisdom to this thread :)

[mindchap]

It's not necessarily wisdom but my own thoughts are that some men just have little to no foresight whatsoever in these stories. Despite the horrible person he is, Tywin has great foresight, Doran as well. And as much as I love Jon and most of the other characters at the Wall, it isn't the Einsteins that end up taking the Black to begin with, just like they don't seem to understand his reasoning for moving the Wildlings. They just don't grasp that by doing that he is keeping the Others from getting hundreds(or thousands) of Wights.

[A Bastard Snow]

You should remember that Jon is doing things no other Lord Commander would ever do.Let the wildings past the wall.In every POV chapter Bowen is opposed to everything Jon does ( he is set in his ways) Bowen was shaken after the battle at the bridge of skulls and ever since then he has been overly cautious.When he stabs Jon saying "For the watch" he really does think he is doing what is right in order to protect the watch.He is crying while he does it as he knows its a terrible thing to do but he doesn't know what else to do.Personally if I was Jon (and I survive which Is a given) I would forgive him and simply exile him.

The road to hell is paved with the best intentions but at least he did it to protect the Watch not for selfish reasons.Jon knows as do most that the watch needs to change or die but change is never easy considering how many friends have been lost to the freefolks attacks.Jon is asking his brothers to forgive them and to feed arm and train the only enemy they have ever known.

[MyLittleFinger]

He broke rule number one, The Night's Watch takes no part. He was a stabbed man walking the second he sent Mance to steal "Arya" let alone planning to march on a part of the realm with a mixed force of Wildlings and NW.

[Pod The Impaler]

There's a bunch of threads on this thingie nicknamed "The Ides of Marsh".

Opinions differ wildly on why Bowen did what he did.

Some think he thought Jon was breaking his Night's Watch vows, or was either too allied to Stannis, or too opposed to Stannis.

Some think he never really accepted Jon becoming Lord Commander at all.

Some think he just could not get over the idea of wildlings not being enemies, much less Watch recruits.

Some think he conspired against Jon at the behest of Cersei, Roose, Selyse, Alliser Thorne, or others.

Therse are not even the more crackpot theories. It goes on and on with this subject.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Bowen stabbed Jon because while he knew about the real threat (the Others) he simply can't forget and put aside what he's been told about the wildings: that they are savages and they're the enemy. I think it's Jeor who mentioned that they have forgotten that the Wall wasn't built to keep the Wildings away but to keep the Others in bay. Unfortunately for the Wildings, they got stuck with them on the other side and now the Others are returning, they are an easy target to become the enemy as well. Jon saw that; but Marsh and few other didn't.

[Sullen]

The Watch doesn't get involved, and he feared Jon going down South would bring the ire of the Boltons and the Crown... simple as that if you ask me.

[A Bastard Snow]

I still found Bowen to be an odd character as he supports Janos yet he is crannogman and used to be sworn to the Starks.Its said people never lose their old loyalties but I suppose he fully embraced the watch.Otherwise I don't see how he could forgive someone for betraying a man who used to be his lord

[Sullen]

I still found Bowen to be an odd character as he supports Janos yet he is crannogman and used to be sworn to the Starks.Its said people never lose their old loyalties but I suppose he fully embraced the watch.Otherwise I don't see how he could forgive someone for betraying a man who used to be his lord

He simply thought supporting the rightful, most powerful thing was the smart thing to do.

In the grand scale of things, Eddard and Robb are the supposed traitors... Bowen works for the Realm. (i.e: The Lannisters, as far as he is concerned)

[Unlady B]

Thanks to all of you! I never expected this thread to have so many quick responses on a saturday's night.

To @Pod the Impaler, I have read some threads about it, but none responded the final question. Is Marsh THAT STUPID?

Although @Mindchap did:

It isn't the Einsteins that end up taking the Black to begin with.

[The Kinkslayer]

Only dead can pay for life: Marsh did it because the wall was build with blood, and it's hungry.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Jon needed to be made an example. No one abandons the Watch. Letting him march off and save his sister and wage war with House Bolton in support of Stannis Baratheon while also saving the King of the Freemen violates almost every part of the oath. If he happened to fall in love and take a wife on the way he could have broken the entire oath in one chapter.

ALSO: leading a wildling army beyond the Wall? 'cmon...

[Pod The Impaler]

To @Pod the Impaler, I have read some threads about it, but none responded the final question. Is Marsh THAT STUPID?

Personally, I say yes he is. I think he is told, but really does not grasp that the whole wildling / Watch divide is over because The Others are awake.

Marsh is one of the big examples in ASOIAF of a small-minded or blinkered man; he is not unintelligent, but cannot see the big picture to save his life.

[Unlady B]

Only dead can pay for life: Marsh did it because the wall was build with blood, and it's hungry.

I don't understand your response. Do you mean plot need?

We know that Jon's fate is a dark one, either he learns his Targ heritage (if you are into the L+R=J), or just because you are into the theory that Mel brings him back and his is changed. Or simply because he is dead.

Personally, I say yes he is. I think he is told, but really does not grasp that the whole wildling / Watch divide is over because The Others are awake.

Marsh is one of the big examples in ASOIAF of a small-minded or blinkered man; he is not unintelligent, but cannot see the big picture to save his life.

Oh, that IS a big problem to all of them who try to play the Game.

It's the the general vs the particular. Great essaies have been written about this stuff...

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

They killed him in the open with their own hands as a political statement that is very similar to the death of Caesar. That's why not have him killed secretly. And I also doubt their resourcefulness for assassinations.

[Hippocras]

I think it is more that Marsh is one of the bean counters put in place by LF. He has been an LF informant for a long time, and LF wants to be the one seen to have saved the North from the Boltons.

His actions were part of a bigger picture than just the Wall. There were orders coming from both LF and Cersei to get rid of Jon. So he did. Probably some threats and promises were made to make sure he followed through.

In general in these books when things don't make sense, we can reasonably assume more information will come that will make the picture clearer.

[MyLittleFinger]

I think it is more that Marsh is one of the bean counters put in place by LF. He has been an LF informant for a long time, and LF wants to be the one seen to have saved the North from the Boltons.

His actions were part of a bigger picture than just the Wall. There were orders coming from both LF and Cersei to get rid of Jon. So he did. Probably some threats and promises were made to make sure he followed through.

In general in these books when things don't make sense, we can reasonably assume more information will come that will make the picture clearer.

Everything is Littlefinger. Hell, I bet he tactically put Dirk in the Night's Watch so that should they ever go ranging he would be perfect to antagonize Crastor and get Mormont killed! Perfect plan, LF truly is the master of deception.

[Hippocras]

Everything is Littlefinger. Hell, I bet he tactically put Dirk in the Night's Watch so that should they ever go ranging he would be perfect to antagonize Crastor and get Mormont killed! Perfect plan, LF truly is the master of deception.

No, Dirk was just a regular scumbag.

[Unlady B]

Everything is Littlefinger. Hell, I bet he tactically put Dirk in the Night's Watch so that should they ever go ranging he would be perfect to antagonize Crastor and get Mormont killed! Perfect plan, LF truly is the master of deception.

As you are implying in your answer (if sarcasm still works on me), LF had nothing to do with the Wall (at least in Marsh's case).

In fact, he's more interested in what's happening south, and so far nothing concerning the Wall.

So:

In general in these books when things don't make sense, we can reasonably assume more information will come that will make the picture clearer.

History will prove Marsh an asshole, and if he had the wisdom in stabbing his LC, he didn't even do it the wright way.

Edit: tried to correct grammar issues...

[Hippocras]

Another possibility is the mutiny is some kind of Other magic and Marsh and gang were being controlled like puppets by someone or something. Though I don't know who. Still there were hints in the way the scene was written that the stabbers were surprised by their own actions, ie they were not in control.

In general there seems to be a pattern of treasonous thoughts in the watch before attacks by Others. Then there is the saying that the Wall will hold as long as the Watch is true. So maybe the Watch having a mutiny is preparation for an attack by the Others.

Anyway, of one thing I am ABSOLUTELY certain: Marsh is not a bold enough man to have dreamed up a mutiny himself.