Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[The Sleeper]

I'm not sure if it is in any way significant other than somewhat ironic, but Marsh is not only a northern name it is from the Neck.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Some like to think that Marsh is more from a bannerman family of the Freys than an actual ex-bannerman from the Reeds.

Does he not think Jon godless because he worships trees? So do the Reeds, I think, so he's of the Seven.

In any case not your typical Northman. Would a true Northman dare to gut Ned Stark's son?

[Maia]

In any case not your typical Northman. Would a true Northman dare to gut Ned Stark's son?

So, Boltons and Karstarks aren't "true northmen"? Neither are Skagosi, I guess. And do you really think that if a Stark blatantly broke his NW vows in the past, he wouldn't have been killed by some honorable northmen? Not that I am saying that Marsh is honorable, but being a son of a Stark doesn't make you a godling, whose behavior can never be questioned or sanctioned.

Is Jon’s authority as LC derived mostly from tradition? The NW is after all first and foremost a military organization.

And what keeps any organization going long-term? Tradition and law. So, yes, Jon's authority as LC of the Night's Watch is directly derived from these two pillars and the more he hacks at them, the more he weakens the institutional basis of his power among the NW.

"Follow the man" tradition of the wildlings, OTOH, may seem better at first blush, but lends itself to constant bloody power-struggles, murders and anarchy, which kept them weak throughout.

So how to determined which will be the less grievous path? Jon’s decision to let the wildings through seems like the soundest one to me.

But it wouldn't seem that way to those, whom Jon is endangering/sacrificing by his decision.

I mean, we as readers with some genre-savvy expect that ultimately food reserves won't matter, because the Others are going to break through the Wall soon and kill large portion of northern population anyway.

Some of us may even expect a "LOTR" solution to the Long Night, where final confrontation with the Others would happen within a year from ADwD and the Spring would come as soon as they are defeated. Personally, I hope that GRRM won't be going for this hoary fantasy cliche, but who knows? In this light, of course Jon's decision looks better.

But the characters don't know this.

Jon can make use of Marsh’s excellent counting skills to determine the amount of food available for each wilding that they let through and come up with a time frame with which to work over solving the problem for example.

But from what we have seen, Jon doesn't do this. Maybe because it would reveal in stark ;) numbers how unrealistic his plan of bringing _all_ wildlings over and feeding them for any reasonable amount of time is?

Also, problem of food during the long winters is a millennia-old problem for the North, yet one to which they found no solution other than sending less valuable people out to die when reserves get low.

The fact that it is a human problem doesn't make it any easier. Nor does Jon at any point hint that he came up with some revolutionary ideas to solve it.

To an outside observer it seems like he is deaf and blind to this problem and to the fact that he is setting up a war for resources between wildlings and northerners in a near future. Because NW reserves wouldn't have lasted more than a few months if Jon had succeeded at admitting as many wildlings as he wanted.

Is Jon making them feel as if they have no input or is it that they don’t actually have any input whatsoever beyond asking the Crone to lend his lamp of wisdom to Jon? Not even in the smallest matter like for example Jon’s steward, where they are incapable to at least submitting a name for Jon’s consideration

In previous chapter, Jon remembered with satisfaction how they had discussed and weighed the rookies to assign them to the orders. His officers didn't have a problem offering their input then, it seems, or he accepting it. It is quite possible that assignments like master-at-arms are traditionally discussed with the officers before LC makes his decision. As to why Marsh didn't offer any candidates - maybe he had no hope that Jon was going to change his mind and feared that he might find a reason to send his candidates away?

Makes me wonder where Donnel Hill is, BTW. I don't remember if he was described as clever, but in their current situation he'd probably seem like a logical choice.

Speaking of candidates, of course there wasn't "a lad of good family" to be Jon's steward, and, frankly, Edd hasn't been that either despite having a noble name. But any other steward would have been less controversial than Satin. Heck, there was another boy, who was assigned to the stewards swearing his oaths in the grove on that day. Why not him?

As to Leathers, I have been wondering why his expertise with wildling weapons would have been such a great qualification for a master-at-arms. NW has different and better weapons and equipment, after all, with which Leathers couldn't be as familiar. We have heard throughout that NW training is superior to that of the wildlings, too.

But then I remembered, that they'd need to use obsidian weapons against the Others. If that was Jon's reason to appoint Leathers, he should have spelled it out, IMHO. Otherwise, extolling his excellence with a stone axe just seemed bizarre as a recommendation.

He is already sharing his plans with the officers and even tolerates them to disagree with him, now is up to them to come up with alternatives in case they do not share Jon’s views.

How is he sharing his plans? He made his plan of allying with the wildlings and the appointments without consulting them. Or, in case of appointments, even thinking very much about them himself, it seems to me, since reassignment of Iron Emmet and Dolorous Edd appeared rather ad hoc.

I'd also point out that even Tywin let his subordinates express themselves rather freely during his councils, so it isn't like Jon is extraordinarily liberal to allow the same.

Jon as LC cannot submit every one of his plans for Marsh’s revision and approval until he can come up with one that suits the latter.

Of course not, but he would have been wise to give his officers an impression that _some_ of their input matters. Again, even Tywin took time and effort to do the same.

Like, for instance, Jon could have consulted them about the appointments, but not his wildling plan, if he felt that they might endanger the latter.

This leads me to a segue about prior NW leadership. The more I think about it, the more apparent is it that Aemon, Jeor Mormont and his predecessor were huge failures.

And in Aemon's case, he didn't even have the excuse of not knowing what was coming. According to his chapters in AFFC, he seemed well aware that the Long Night was relatively imminent, otherwise why his preoccupation with the Promised Prince?

Yet, in AGoT we see NW in a bad condition indeed, even though Aemon and Jeor had tools to ameliorate some of it at least.

I.e. they didn't get enough literate recruits? Select clever boys from among the recruits and assign Septon Cellador to teach them literacy and numeracy. As a bonus, that would have given him something to do. Jon should have considered it as well, as his situation in this respect is even more dire.

They got too few quality volunteers? Well, maybe somebody should have realized that Yoren was an anti-advertisement and forced him to clean up? As well as sent some of their highborns to recruit together with him/other recruiters, when visits to the court or other important noble seats were on the itinerary? Have Benjen tour the North with a recruitment drive?

Thorne as master-at-arms, who trains all the new recruits - surely it should have been clear that it was massively harmful to NW's weapons skill level? Why not reassign him to one of the other castles, if, for some reason, you are leery of making him a ranger. He would have been better/done less harm whilst keeping advanced fighters in form.

Not to mention the absurdity of recruits not being trained in archery or fighting with axes and spears, all of which belong to the staple weaponry of NW. Or training them in "sword and shield" style only, when on the rangings they don't even seem to have shields? Which Jon perpetuates too, BTW.

In fact, it is just so completely unbelievable as to be a plot-hole. After all, we never saw any nobles or knights train with axes or maces either, even though they routinely use them in battles or melees. No, it is always the swords or lances and we are apparently supposed to think that people pick up these other weapons and become instantly awesome with them...

Aemon doesn't have a replacement, even though we have seen in Cressen's case that the Citadel normally sends one per-emptively if a maester is old an frail. Maybe they are snubbing NW, maybe Aemon was afraid of becoming side-lined like Cressen and didn't request one. But why on earth didn't he train somebody to take over, should he die? Clydas can fulfill some of maester's duties, but he didn't work out, clearly, and he is elderly himself. Why not try with somebody else before Sam showed up? Why was Chett(!), of all people, his second servant? Shouldn't it have been obvious, that having somebody capable of learning from Aemon attending him would provide clear benefits for the future?

So, yea, on reflection the "wise old men" Aemon and Jeor are revealed as quite inept. Aemon in particular, since he had an inkling of what was coming, had been on the Wall since forever and was supposed to be less blinkered by societal prejudices, what with being a royal who became a maester, had Egg for a favorite brother and rejected the crown for himself.

[bemused]

Maia ...Gee, I hardly know where to start..

Emmet and Edd..

Their appointment seems to me a well considered decision and these two men seem perfect for the assignment.

They're going to be commanding a fortress of spearwives. The spearwives come from the wildling "follow the strong leader " culture and they've chosen ,themselves, to be warriors... Iron Emmet was a skilled fighter - that's why Jon first assigned him as arms master..

He could hear the voice of Iron Emmett telling them to be quick about it. Cotter Pyke had not been pleased to lose him, but the young ranger had a gift for training men. He loves to fight, and he’ll teach his boys to love it too.

..Emmet seems like the kind of guy the spearwives could easily respect... He loves to fight, they love to fight, and with his gift for training, he can probably instill the discipline they need. ..And Edd is steady , unflappable, uses humour to make a point instead of confrontation or agression, and never over reacts. Great for diffusing frictions that may arise.

Both men seem to accept Jon's leadership without question and in their interactions with Jon display a liking for him as well , so their loyalty is not in question. Nothing ad hoc about it, IMO.

On a side note, people sometimes seem to think that the men Jon sent away , such as Pyp , Grenn, Emmet and Edd , were just sent - without any interview or reasons given, or discussions of what he expects from them in their new assignments. Yet we see from Sam, Giant, Thorne and even Slynt, that this is certainly not Jon's practice.. Why shouldn't we think that the reactions of the others would have been more like Giant's ( a frank exchange ) than Thorne's or Slynt's ?

Bowen..

I really don't understand the desire to see Bowen as so wise.. he's never really displayed much in the way of wisdom going back to AGoT.

It seems to me that Jon's point about wildlings abandoned north of the wall only serving to swell the forces of the Others is well made. There is no instant solution to the food problem , but Jon is making plans to try to cope with it - IB , greenhouses, etc.. Buying food actually being the same solution Bowen mentions , back when he thinks it would be impossible ( more about this in upcoming chapters). If none of Jon's solutions can be made to work in time to prevent a lot of people from starving, at least if they're south of the wall, there would be someone to burn the corpses...And if his plans can work out , the northern clans and houses will not be threatened by the wildlings, and may even be helped.( e.g. Karstark will benefit from having more able bodied men.)

Bowen has been so unwilling to actually discuss anything , and so determined to just be the voice of opposition ( even when he has no reasonable argument to support his position ) that to discuss appointments with him would probably have been a colossal waste of time. Time is at a premium ,and Jon is not obligated to discuss appointments anyway. So..why? ..Just to stroke Bowen's ego ?

Bowen doesn't even want the other castles to be opened, since they'd have to be manned with wildlings. Yet at least two men who are far better tacticians than Bowen - Jon and Stannis ( and probably more) see this as necessary ...Bowen doesn't even think it's likely that The Weeper ,e.g., could scale the wall .!!!

Oh, please.. I really can't take these excuses for Bowen seriously , anymore . In order to see Bowen as in the right in ADWD, it's necessary to see prior ineptitude in all sorts of people ( or in the case of Aemon, to assume he knew what was coming ) . No-one knew what was coming , that's the set up from the beginning and something that has been repeated by GRRM in interview after interview. (Bloodraven and the CoTF knew earlier than the NW, but their ability to communicate was limited.)

Much of your post seems to imply that if only all those other men had done a better job (highly debatable,IMO) , Bowen wouldn't be in such an impossible position ,now . It's really their fault that Bowen has no other option (again, highly debatable) but to assassinate Jon .

I can't help but think of a kid who's caught doing something wrong , who tries to get off by saying ... Yeah , but Joey did this and Susie did that and Billy did something else, they're just as naughty as me.. it's not reasonable. I just can't see Bowen as the guy with the brains or expertise to solve the problems facing the NW and the realm . Whatever he's convinced himself of , he's demonstrably wrong , period.

[The Sleeper]

A couple of observations. There is once again a reference to Dalla's catchphrase that sorcery is a sword without a hilt as well as Mel's response to it. In this we see a slight shift in Jon's attitude as he now sees Mel's point as opposed to his earlier view that he wouldn't want to be indebted to her no matter what. This might be not a shift towards his attitude to sorcery, as I'm getting the vibe that he was undecided on the matter, but shift towards listening to what Mel has to say whereas before he regarded her with almost superstitious suspicion. In my view it also signifies Jon's drift towards a "whatever it takes mentality".

The other thing that struck me was the three times the unspecified men were mentioned, once by Mully and twice by Marsh, as well as Jon's reacrion's and thoughts on the matter. The first time Jon finishes the sentence for Mully and thinks to himself that they have a point. This Jon's awareness of dissension or at least unease in the ranks and reflects his own doubts. Mully's mention comes of as a concern. The second mention is by Marsh right at the start of their conference as the three present themselves for a confrontation. Marsh says that the men have concerns and it is presented as a challenge, that Jon has things to answer for. Jon thinks of Marsh's presumption to claim advocacy on behalf of the men, indicating that he certainly doesn't feel he has to answer to Marsh and throws the ball back at them ordering them to report on their duties. The third time it is mentioned is in reference to Leathers' appointment to the post of master at arms where Marsh says the men do not trust him. Jon's response in this instant is particularly interesting as he thinks about the unspecificity of the "men" and wonders who might oppose him. He then thinks to himself that he doesn't want to go down that road. He proceeds dismissing that remark. The meeting ends quite contrary to the expectations of Marsh and Co where they sought to chastize and perhaps sway Jon, they are ignored, rebuffed and dismissed.

The relevant point of the men in my view is Jon's awareness of potential opposition against him within the ranks as well as his conscious refusal to deal with them pro actively. This might be a noble sentiment or it might be burying his head in the sand. Policing the brothers would certainly make him more enemies than he ended up having and push the ones he did have further, but it might also have kept him alive. It also might have fragmented the Watch during very trying times. Still, it's hard to beat having the LC assassinated in the middle of a crisis. What it did is leave that opposition a matter of speculation and guessing for the readers.

[butterbumps!]

[butterbumps!]

Jon IX

Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix.

overview

Selyse arrives with her retinue, including the Braavosi banker, Tycho Nestoris. After a tense welcome with the queen, Jon invites Tycho into his chambers in order to hammer out a deal for a bank loan to help support the Watch through winter. At dinner, the “Queen’s Hand,” Axell Florent joins Jon and asks leading questions about Val, finally becoming enraged when Jon refuses to have her paraded before him.

Later that night, Jon’s woken, as a grey girl has turned up at the Wall. Expecting Arya, Jon recognizes Alys Karstark, who’s fled Karhold to avoid a forced marriage to her cousin, Cregan, who is still on her trail. She implores Jon to intercede for her, and informs him that her Uncle Arnolf is secretly with the Boltons and plans to double-cross Stannis in battle.

observations

• The snows have moved to the south
• Wun Wun is a vegetarian, and apparently has a substance abuse problem
• Patchface sings: “In the dark the dead are dancing”
• It’s thanks to Mel’s knowingly untrue confirmation of those towers in her vision as Eastwatch that Selyse is demanding to be taken to the Nightfort for safety.
• It is criminal negligence on Martin’s part that we don’t get snippets of Cotter’s undoubtedly hilarious letters about Axell and Selyse

analysis

the prancing jackanapes “descend”

This chapter seems especially crafted to be biased against Selyse and her retinue, making evident the cultural difference between those who fit in the North and “Southron Fools.” In previous chapters, a handful of Kingsmen, like Godry the heroic Giantslayer, stuck out as fairly ludicrous, but for the most part, Stannis’ men weren’t presented as wholly incompatible with the culture of the Watch and the North. There was even a sense common ground, at least in terms of stopping wildlings and turning attention Northward. Conversely, the entire retinue of Queen’s Men and Selyse are presented as an absurdity, unkind, and a general inconvenience they could all do without. They’re presented as basically a caricature of Southron culture.

With the exception of Shireen and Tycho, the new arrivals are presented so egregiously that it might be worth questioning where POV bias ends and reality begins.

To that end, Jon’s approaching this with a pretty expansive set of expectations about them. Cotter Pyke has been sending Jon volumes of strongly-worded letters about Selyse, Axell, and the Queen’s Men, none of it very charitable. We don’t know exactly what Cotter detailed, but Jon deduces that Selyse is class conscious, decorum conscious, likes display, and is a bit of a snob, to put it mildly. He predicts that unless he greets her with his own full retinue, she will mistake him for a stablehand. The reality is even worse than that; even with men behind him, she doesn’t consider that the man formally greeting her could be the LC, and asks to be taken to him. He’s also deduced that Selyse’s power and respect is mostly gestural; Mel is their “true queen:”

Queen’s men all, Jon Snow knew. They may attend Selyse, but it is Melisandre they serve.

There’s a lot of pomp and formality during this meeting, as Selyse presents what Jon sees as a parade of fools. Jon notes a disconnect between the politeness of her words and her chilly, almost rude tone behind them. From her stiff formality, to her dismissal of Wun Wun as a “filthy creature,” and ostensible outrage over being told that both she and the giant are guests of the Watch, it would seem that all Jon expected of her is proving true. It’s clear that Jon thinks she’s a bit of an idiot, and can’t take her seriously; when Jon leads her to Mel as requested, the retinue behind them is trivialized in his thoughts as a string of “ducklings.” Davos’ earlier POVs would appear to confirm Jon and Cotter’s impressions, but I wonder: how much of this is from the bias of expectation? And further, how much of her snobbery, superiority complex and adherence to trappings of power are a coping mechanism, concealing a very insecure, sad person? It’s an interesting supposition that Selyse and Mel might be making a similar mistake in that their respective power-trappings don’t translate their intentions, and are counter-productive in garnering sympathy and loyalty by the same parties (Davos and Jon).

Is that whom I serve?

Jon and Tycho meet privately to discuss a business proposal. Cotter had previously alerted Jon to the fact that a banker had shown up, and we learn that Jon’s spent the intervening time thinking about how best to use this resource. His speculations are confirmed: the IT has defaulted and the IB is considering Stannis for repayment.

Hearing that Tycho had planned to send Stannis a raven and wait at the Nightfort, Jon seizes an opportunity. Jon opens negotiations by offering to provide Tycho with resources to reach Stannis in the field and speed the process along. After two hours of negotiations, Jon has been approved for use of the 3 Braavosi ships for the Hardhome mission, and a loan to buy food through the winter.

There’s a curious line during their discussion:

“We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne.”

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain.

I think this line is quite ambiguous, and always come to a different interpretation each time I read it. Is Tycho mistaken in thinking the Watch serves the IT, but that through Jon’s recent support of Stannis, he’s begun to? Or is Tycho correct in that the Watch serves the IT, and Jon’s not sure he really does anymore, as he’s exulting that the Lannisters have made an enemy of the IB?

Axell “man of the world” Florent really outdoes himself

Despite sitting beside a foreign banker wearing a Dr. Suess hat, in a room full of former criminals, Axell Florent manages to look like the most comically absurd, gauche, incompetent and ill-intentioned man in the room. Even his appearance makes Jon want to laugh.

He approaches Jon’s table asking to see Val, escalating the request from playful nudging to outright demands, invoking his “authority” as the “Queen’s Hand.” For the record, there is no such thing as “the Queen’s Hand;” it’s basically a made up position.

Jon realizes that Axell knows Val’s been sent away, and tries to deflect his increasingly strained and distasteful requests to see her. I realize that in sending Val beyond the Wall, Jon violated Stannis’ request to watch her closely. That said, the issue is between him and Stannis; he doesn’t owe “the Queen’s Hand” any sort of explanation.

Although I’m trying to be cautious about taking Jon’s views of these new arrivals at face value, Axell really does expose himself as pretty irredeemable. For example, consider the following “arguments” he makes to convince Jon he should see Val:

Some of these wildling women, well, a man would need to turn them over to do his duty as a husband. If it please the lord commander, bring her out, let us have a look.”

“I promise not to count her teeth.” Florent grinned. “Oh, never fear, I’ll treat her with all the courtesy she is due.”

“I’ll go to her. Where do you keep the wench?” (I find this one pretty hilarious considering the one above, where he promises to treat her with courtesy)

“Must I speak to the queen? A word from Her Grace and I can have this wildling girl delivered naked to the hall for our inspection.”

Debt or Death

Having had his fill of Axell, Jon excuses himself to think alone. He reflects on the loan he just procured, which should be an answered prayer. Yet, he feels disquiet: “That was simple. Simpler than it should have been.” The loan might get them through the winter, but imposes a new burden on the Watch come spring: repayment to an extremely powerful institution that always gets its due. The tradeoff weighs on Jon heavily, but Jon seems to believe he’s made the right choice:

A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow.

I’d be curious to know what Bowen would think of the loan. We don’t see him discuss this deal with anyone else, and I wonder if he ever does tell them about it off-page. I’m wondering if he keeps it to himself because he anticipates that Bowen would disapprove of it strongly; while Bowen might advocate a much smaller loan to get the Watch through winter, I could see Bowen take a major issue with a massive debt to the most powerful bank in the world that covers the expenses of wildlings as well.

Jon also reflects on the political implications of Tycho’s interest in Stannis. It occurs to Jon that finances may have just won Stannis the throne and defeated the Lannisters. This turn of events is something of a relief to the Watch, in that, it would appear they might not be on “the losing side” much longer. Like Tywin’s death earlier, the arrival of the banker somewhat justifies Jon’s decisions to improve Stannis’ odds, as it makes his success (and therefore, a lack of retaliation to the Watch for “siding” with him) that much more plausible.

Despite this positive twist, the Hardhome mission makes him restless. He plans to send 11 ships to start extracting wildlings, but remains unsure of whether he ought to lead the mission personally.

The arrival of the Grey Girl

He drifts off and is woken by Mully, explaining that a girl’s arrived from the South. He assumes that this is Arya, the “grey girl on a dying horse” Mel foresaw. Despite excitement that he’s moments away from seeing a girl he expects to be Arya, Jon seems to be cautious. He begins to assume that Mel purposely misled him:

Does she never sleep? What game are you playing, priestess? Did you have some other task for Mance?

His joy at anticipating Arya starts to emerge as he makes his way to Aemon’s chamber, but even in this state he begins weighing his options about where to send her. He can’t send her to Winterfell, as it’s “burned and broken,” and “there are no more safe places.” He accepts that he can’t keep her at the Watch, and further, realizes he wants to remove her from the game entirely so that Stannis or Mel can’t use her for their own ends, be it marriage or “the gods alone” know what. Ironically given where the real Arya is, he thinks sending her back to Braavos with Tycho is a good solution.

Disappointment sets in, however, when the girl turns out to be Alys Karstark rather than Arya. She explains her reason for coming: her cousin, Cregan, is trying to force her into marriage so that he and his father, Arnolf, can lay claim to Karhold. Alys’ brother, Harry, is the heir, but he may no longer be alive, and so according to custom, Karhold ought to pass to her before Cregan. Most troubling, she fears that once she gives Cregan an heir, he will have her killed.

The Rickard Karstark issue causes some momentary tension, but they clear the air, appealing to how all of the transgressors involved are now dead, and agreeing that there is no blood feud between them. She goes on to say that she didn’t “know where else to turn but to the last son of Eddard Stark.” He tries to insist that she ought to appeal to Stannis for matters of marriage and inheritance as those are “matters for the king,” not an LC, even if he is a son of Ned. She explains that an appeal to Stannis is futile, as his defeat is inevitable: the Karstarks had cast their lot with the Boltons ages ago for “gold, the promise of a pardon, and poor Harry’s head.” They openly declared for Stannis in order to instigate the Lannisters to kill hostage Harry, thereby moving forward in the line of inheritance. However, they plan to turn on him outside Winterfell. She gives a final impassioned plea:

Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

What exactly is Jon’s position here? The LC of the Watch is allegedly not supposed to perform any extra-Watch functions, and is not typically seen as an authority figure over non-Watchmen. Yet at least one Northman (Alys) is overlooking those customary boundaries and imploring him to act like a king. The ultimate reason she gives for appealing to Jon over Stannis is simply one of practicality; she thinks that Stannis will be out of the picture, and basically, Jon’s her last hope for protection.

I think there are limits to what we can extract from this. It doesn’t tell us that Northmen would choose Jon over Stannis, or whether Northmen would overlook Jon’s vows if other leadership choices are available and the like. But it does suggest that Jon’s connection to Ned Stark invokes a sense of respect and power from other Northmen, and that if he’s seen as the last man standing between order and chaos, people might be willing to overlook his vows in favor of his intervention.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, bumps!

• It is criminal negligence on Martin’s part that we don’t get snippets of Cotter’s undoubtedly hilarious letters about Axell and Selyse

Agreed. Letters from the same guy who said if they wanted Stannis to wipe his bloody arse for him as well.

Selyse gives off a bit of Blanche DuBois. Blanche puts on a veneer of an aristocratic Southern belle and social snobbery, despite the fact that she lost her family's estate and is destitute, to hide her own fragility and insecurity. Selyse likewise puts on the veneer of a queen and social snobbery, despite the fact that she has no throne or kingdom to speak of, to hide her own insecurities.

Axell is an amoral careerist who would allow his own brother to be burned alive, and he is very crass when talking about Val as you said.

the boldest of the queen's knights moved forward, steel in hand

Ser Patrek tries again later, and he learns he should have listened to Jon: "You do not want to anger him."

Jon as LC

including the Ibbenese whaler Cotter Pyke commandeered on Jon's order, a trading galey out of Pentos similarly impressed

People have often compared to Robb and Ned in terms of how he governs, but he uses his power in ways Ned and Robb never would have done like impress ships. Jon's actions here more resemble Tyrion's in ACoK when he seized ships in the harbor.

By the time Jon Snow signed the parchment the Braavosi drew up, both of them were half-drunk and quite unhappy. Jon thought that a good sign.

Jon shows to be good negotiator, and get the gist of a negotiated agreement between two parties being compromise.

Foreshadowing:

King

She might mistake him [Jon] for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.

"No one sees her ladyship unless the Longinch gives his leave. You [Dunk] come with me. Your stableboy can stay with the horses."

"I'm a squire not a stableboy," Egg insisted. "Are you blind, or only stupid?"

Another little Easter egg (pardon my pun). We have a hidden Targaryen (Aegon/his descendant, Jon) using a pseudonym (Egg/Snow), and someone called a giant (Dunk/Wun Wun).

An enormous shadow emerged from behind the shell of the Lord Commander's tower.

Across the yard the King's Tower had turned into a hulking shadow, the lights in its windows obscured by falling snow.

The LC's tower is the one Jon burnt down with a large shadow emerging behind it. The word "shell" gives an image of an egg. While the King's Tower is described as a shadow obscured by snow. Varys said power is "a shadow on the wall" (Mel noted Jon's large shadow on the Wall earlier), I don't think he meant it with a capital "W." A new power is emerging on the Wall, and shadow has also been used as a future event, given often being mentioned in prophecy. A hint to LC Jon Snow, having fallen, being an egg (false identity) for a dragon (Targaryen) and destined king to hatch from akin to Daemon II's dream referring to future king Aegon V hatching in TMK?

A golden dawn was breaking in the east, but behind Lady Melisandre's window in the King's Tower a reddish light still flickered.

Aegon with the GC is rising from the east, but in there is a hidden king still alive under Melisandre's nose.

"I did not know where else to turn but to the last son of Eddard Stark."

"Why not the king?"

That's exactly what she did.

"Marriages and inheritances are matters for the king, my lady"

Jon later takes care of those matters.

Other

Jon closed his eyes. Just for a moment . . .

. . . and woke stiff as a board, with the Old Bear's raven muttering "Snow, Snow," and Mully shaking him. "M'lord you're wanted. Beg pardon, m'lord. A girl's been found."

"A girl?" Jon sat, rubbing the sleep form his eyes with the back of his hands. "Val? Has Val returned?"

"Stiff as a board" brings to mind death. I think foreshadows Jon waking up from his "grave," and likely with BR's help, and Val present.

A giant's laughter could put to shame a dragon's roar.

I think this points to Tyrion's political abilities being above that of Dany's when they eventually meet. His laughter has more power than her threats/wroth.

[Ragnorak]

Very nice work, Butterbumps. So much in this chapter...

Bloody Southron Fools

The negative portrayal of Selyse and company is so bad that it is only reasonable to call into question whether or not some POV bias is at play. I don't think that is it. Part of it may be that these are the men Stannis didn't see fit to bring with him. Perhaps Axell is the worst but his words condemn him without any of Jon's perspective taken into account. This chapter also comes after Asha's where this North vs. South divide is also blatantly on display.

Even prisoners have ears, and she had heard all the talk at Deepwood Motte, when King Stannis and his captains were debating this march. Ser Justin had opposed it from the start, along with many of the knights and lords who had come with Stannis from the south. But the wolves insisted; Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell, and the Ned’s girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard. So said Morgan Liddle, Brandon Norrey, Big Bucket Wull, the Flints, even the She-Bear.

Big Bucket laughed in his face. “Lord Pea Pod. If you were a man, I would kill you for that, but my sword is made of too fine a steel to besmirch with craven’s blood.” He took a drink of ale and wiped his mouth. “Aye, men are dying. More will die before we see Winterfell. What of it? This is war. Men die in war. That is as it should be. As it has always been.”
Ser Corliss Penny gave the clan chief an incredulous look. “Do you want to die, Wull?”
That seemed to amuse the northman. “I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter.
“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

The debate to go to Winterfell is clearly split along the northern and southern divide. This is also Asha's POV and she's a cultural aside to this geographical divide. There's also the completely hilarious bit about the mountain clans only loosing a single mule (which they suspect was stolen) after long passages of wintery doom and the death with "the cold count." I think we have a very intentional illustration of the cultural divide that predates this Jon chapter and it is probably worth some closer examination as to the author's intentions.

As an aside I'm struck here by the sacrifices these Northmen are willing to endure for "The Ned's girl" and can't help but reflect back on Robb's decision to not trade Jaime for Sansa and see it in an acutely negative light. Sansa lives and in all probability the survival of Bran and Rickon is an open secret. Arya is not the political asset for the fate of Winterfell so this seems to be exactly what they claim-- a willingness to die to save the Ned's girl.

This value judgment is at least one item on the list of cultural divides. I think it is part of a huge theme of Ned vs. Tywin in comparing their legacies of love vs. fear, but there are undoubtedly many other factors at play.

The Charlatan Prediction

The red priestess had warned him of their coming almost a day before the raven arrived from Eastwatch with the same message.

“Eastwatch is not safe.” The queen put a hand on her daughter’s shoulder. “This is the king’s true heir. Shireen will one day sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. She must be kept from harm, and Eastwatch is where the attack will come.

Ok so how does Selyse know that Eastwatch is where the attack will come? The only reasonable answer is Mel told her so. Selyse moving to Castle Black doesn't require prophetic ability after dropping that little tidbit in her lap. It may be even less insightful since that means that Mel sent Selyse a raven and she may have even explicitly told her to come to Castle Black. It seems we have Mel engineering her own prophetic success here. She may view Selyse as a useful pawn to help her win over Jon or she may have decided that 50 more people were needed to increase the awe inspiring nature of her duckling horde. Either way it seems pretty clear this wasn't something she saw in her fires.

A Fake Arya

When Alys arrives Jon is expecting her to be Arya thus making Alys a fake Arya of sorts. This gives us a POV other than Theon evaluating a fake Arya and we see Jon note her eye color, the age difference, etc. We also see Jon recognize a girl he met once when he was six. This strikes me as Martin's reveal that everyone in Winterfell knows damn well Arya is fake.

What's in a crown?

The chapter opens with a crowned regal authority descending on Castle Black with Jon realizing that the real power resides in the uncrowned queen Melisandre. Interspersed we have numerous examples of that regal retinue trying to exercise power over Jon that he simply does not bow to. The chapter ends with Alys asking for the protection that comes from a king. Alys is the third girl in an oversized cloak that Jon deals with on the terms of a king. The first was Gilly back in CoK where he refuses and defers to Mormont's judgment (in addition to his own.) Later that same Gilly is sent away with a baby that is not her own in an exercise of kingly authority in defiance of an actual king. Then we have Val in the oversized bearskin cloak where Jon is sending her out with an offer that rivals that of King Stannis. Lastly we have Alys appealing for the same protection Gilly did with Jon in Mormont's shoes.

Gilly and Alys are both in oversized cloaks of the Watch while Val left in a bearskin. The bearskin recalls Benjen's gesture to Tyrion making it a king's offer to another House of sorts. I suppose the Promise and the offer of shelter the Starks made to House Manderly is a good parallel for the offer Val carries to the Wildlings. Gilly and Alys are both seeking the protection of a king for the defenseless. Jon specifically says:

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady.

and yet Jon will arrange a marriage and adjudicate the inheritance of Karhold all the same. Is that whom I serve? This line has multiple meanings and one such meaning seems to be that Jon is no longer serving any King but acting like one in the constant wake of kingly failures.

"Good. I was afraid … I begged my father to leave one of my brothers as castellan, but none of them wished to miss the glory and ransoms to be won in the south. Now Torr and Edd are dead. Harry was a prisoner at Maidenpool when last we heard, but that was almost a year ago. He may be dead as well. I did not know where else to turn but to the last son of Eddard Stark."

Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

Alys runs to a bastard son of Ned Stark in the Nights Watch for protection instead of the King. This scenes implications for the Stark legacy in general and Ned's specifically are tremendous. She is kneeling before Jon, a gesture to a King, after choosing not to go to Stannis who is a King. While kneeling she is clutching a black cloak of the NW and pleads-- In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me. This is the Great Northern Conspiracy in one neat package.

Outside, the snow was coming down more heavily. Across the yard the King’s Tower had turned into a hulking shadow, the lights in its windows obscured by falling snow.

Shadows are the projection of power and snow is turning the Kings Tower into a hulking shadow while also obscuring its light making its shadows those projected by snow.

[Mithras]

Good work butterbumps. Definitely agree on Cotter Pyke. It is a pity he was absent when Tyrion mocked Thorne in AGoT.

Southron Fools

I think the exceedingly biased POV of Jon about these bloody southron fools is on purpose. Jon can make his decisions by using his analytical skills but with such an irrational lot, can he make true conclusions about why the hell did they come to CB and what the hell they are looking for? I don’t think so. In fact, we see that Jon can never rationalize why they persist to stay in CB. For him, they are just some fools goofing around.

I think Selyse and her company might be plotting something which is unthinkably stupid from Jon’s analytical and rational POV. Ser Patrek the Red Pulp is the kind of stupidity I am talking about but I feel like it is not the only one and might be the tip of an iceberg.

So if we try to remove us from Jon’s biased POV and force ourselves to think in terms of the southron ways of court politics (which should be the mindset of Selyse/Axell), what are they trying to do?

Jon first thinks that Axell knows that he does not have Val. But later, Axell threatens him to speak to Selyse and have Val brought to them naked. They obviously do not know that Val is away (yet). This means they think that Jon is keeping Val for himself. Axell will confess it plainly in the future. In fact, we can talk about it later.

Braavos and the IB

“We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne.”

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain.

I can redirect this question and ask “Is the IB whom Tycho serves?” Of course he serves the IB but what if the governance of the IB was divided between conflicting factions just like the IT? Normally the IB should be an independent profit-based institution but how much independent can they be from the Sealord (or how much independent can the Sealord be from the IB; or is there a chance that a Sealord can be chosen without the leave of the IB)?

The current Sealord is seek and meekly. The fat merchant (Illyrio) shits on his head and he laughs to it with the sailors (in a mummer’s play). Soon a new Sealord will be chosen and the knives will come out. Since the regimes are changing everywhere (like the tigers returning to power in Volantis), I expect a new kind of Sealord to be chosen.

Pentos practices slavery all but in name in spite of a century old agreement with Braavos and the new Sealord might want to make them rue it. Also the new Sealord might try to play an active hand in the shitstorm centered in Slaver’s Bay because their archenemy Volantis is certainly involved in the matter.

I think opening the vaults of the IB for Stannis is a decision of the weak Sealord. From a realistic point of view, Stannis has a slim chance of winning the IT and Tycho himself will witness his desperate situation in the crofter’s village. Of course he will win the Battle on Ice unexpectedly but Tycho cannot know that. Nor he can anticipate that Stannis is thinking of faking his death.

Therefore, I expect the new Sealord to disregard the agreement with Stannis (especially after the word that he is dead spreads) and give their support to fAegon or Dany. My favorite is Dany.

About Alys

Jon has no other option to protect her. Jon wants Stannis to succeed. He gets pleasure from his victories. He cast his lots with him long ago. Therefore, doing nothing about the Alys problem is impossible because if he lets Cregan go, he might warn the Boltons and they might suspect that Jon learned the Karstark treachery from Alys and forwarded it to Stannis. Jon cannot take that chance.

Foreshadowing

“We’ve had a raven from Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower,” Jon Snow told her. “His men have seen fires in the mountains on the far side of the Gorge. Wildlings massing, Ser Denys believes. He thinks they are going to try to force the Bridge of Skulls again.”

“Some may.” Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. “Yes. Eastwatch, my lord.”

The Weeper will certainly retry the Bridge of Skulls and Ser Denys reports that much. However, Mel claimed that it should not be a serious attack, only a diversion. This is another harm of a false prophet. Normally, Jon would thnk of reinforcing the Shadow Tower but with Mel’s influence, he neglected it and that is why the Weeper will succeed this time.

“Eastwatch is not safe.” The queen put a hand on her daughter’s shoulder. “This is the king’s true heir. Shireen will one day sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. She must be kept from harm, and Eastwatch is where the attack will come. This Nightfort is the place my husband has chosen for our seat, and there we shall abide.”

Since Selyse s speaking based on a false prophet, the harm to Shireen will not come from the Eastwatch. I think, Nightfort is the place where things will go ugly.

Melisandre’s face darkened. “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.”

I think the real danger to Shireen is Patchface. He might do some stuff worthy of note in the bloody history of the Nightfort.

Jon has clear parallels from Perseus. I think Shireen will be Andromeda and Patchface will be her Cetus, which is a sea monster sent by the sea god to punish the hubris of the queen.

A golden dawn was breaking in the east, but behind Lady Melisandre's window in the King's Tower a reddish light still flickered.

This golden dawn breaking in the east should be fAegon coming with the GC and the reddish light still flickering might be Jon.

An enormous shadow emerged from behind the shell of the Lord Commander’s Tower. Princess Shireen gave a shriek, and three of the queen’s knights gasped in harmony. Another swore. “Seven save us,” he said, quite forgetting his new red god in his shock.

The enormous shadow emerging from the LC’s Tower might refer to Jon. It made the knight to forget his new red god in his shock. I think this means that two supposed AAR candidates by the Red God followers (Stannis by Mel and Dany by Benerro) are false and their falsehood will be proven when Jon’s shadow falls on them.

“I had been told all the giants were dead.”

“Almost all.” Ygritte wept for them.

“In the dark the dead are dancing.”

Since the CotF are a folk equally assumed to be extinct like the giants long time ago, I think Patchface is referring to the CotF in their caves.

Mormont’s raven greeted them with a shriek of “Corn!” Jon hung up his cloak.

This is how the raven greets Jon when he retires to his solar to get loan from the IB to buy food. Another Corn King reference. Jon needs to feed his people.

“Should he prove himself more worthy of our trust, it would of course be our great pleasure to lend him whatever help he needs.”

“Help,” the raven screamed. “Help, help, help.”

Mormont’s raven urges them to help Stannis. Curious.

What was it Stannis had said to him? You haggle like a crone with a codfish, Lord Snow. Did Lord Eddard father you on a fishwife? Perhaps he had at that.

Combining with the story of Lord Borrell about Ned and the fisherman’s daughter, this is another red herring for Jon’s parentage. In fact, Perseus (Jon’s parallel) was really fostered by a good fisherman as his own.

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

This is the recipe of Team fAegon’s future black propaganda against Dany. Even Arianne thought why did Dany do nothing to prevent Viserys getting killed by her husband. It also adds a layer of prejudice in Jon against Dany.

[Lummel]

Jon IX...

Selyse and Alys

This a chapter with two contrasting sets of refugees arriving at Castle Black, Selyse and Alys.

Selyse demands and expects (and I agree that this reflects her insecurity) while Alys requests and submits

Selyse judges from her first, surface impressions (a boy! a monster!), while Alys relies upon knowledge of the family and tradition

Selyse is potentially misleading about her reasons for arriving (I suspect trying to get away from Cotter Pyke is an important part of it), Alys is explicit and precise

Selyse is a troublesome distraction, while the arrival of Alys is strategically significant.

Selyse hopes to be treated as a Queen, Alys hopes to be treated with by a king.

I agree entirely in your presentation of Selyse' manners as the coping mechanism of an insecure person

Ser Axell Florent

Florent I think reveals himself quite clearly in that I'll treat her with all the courtesy she is due is paired with 'wench', parade naked and look at her teeth. In other words Florent's attitude contrasts with the official Stannis & Melisandre line in that for him Val isn't a Wildling Princess, or if she is such a person is essentially a human horse and to be treated as such. If the wildlings aren't even seen as equivalent and equal types of human by these southerners no wonder their reactions to the giant are so extreme. What would they think about a warg?

Serving the Iron Throne

Yes. An interesting phrase. To my mind this is about Jon and how he sees himself - after all he thinks "is that whom I serve", "I" not "we". This is about him, not the Watch as a whole. Further the ambiguity says to me that for Jon, Stannis isn't the Iron Throne. If he was confident and certain that Stannis was the true and rightful King (etc etc) there would be no ambiguity here, it would be 'Yes! That's who I serve'.

I think if we add to this that Jon has creatively reinterpreted Stannis' instructions in sending Val out then what we have is Jon seeing Stannis as a partner or somebody he is allied with but not somebody that he is subject to. This may mean that Jon sees the nature of the oath and the role of the Watch as superior to any one particular king, or that he quite simply doesn't think of him as being anything more than one king among many.

The news that Alys brings and the mission that Val is on will change the balance of power in the north. Alys opens up the possibility of Stannis' defeat through treachery, while if Val returns with Tormund and followers then Jon in numbers at least will have the largest contingent under arms in the north.

Family

Jon isn't meant to have any sisters yet the prospect of Arya being there sets his mind racing. Alys appeals to him as a kinsman and to having authority as most senior Starkalike in the north. This is the power of family networks that Ragnorak alluded to as well contrasted to the formal power system of the Iron Throne and the authority assumed by those who claim it. A claim that appears particularly fragile in this chapter, which links very well to the images of shadows and projection here...

Anybody else think of 'you are my only hope Obi Won' in this chapter/ :laugh:

[Ibbison from Ibben]

There’s a curious line during their discussion:

“We who serve the Iron Bank face death full as often as you who serve the Iron Throne.”

Is that whom I serve? Jon Snow was no longer certain.

I think this line is quite ambiguous, and always come to a different interpretation each time I read it. Is Tycho mistaken in thinking the Watch serves the IT, but that through Jon’s recent support of Stannis, he’s begun to? Or is Tycho correct in that the Watch serves the IT, and Jon’s not sure he really does anymore, as he’s exulting that the Lannisters have made an enemy of the IB?

The NW serves the Realm. Once the Targs conquered Westeros, they equated the IT to the Realm. I think Jon is considering the possibility that the Realm and the IT may not be synonymous.

What exactly is Jon’s position here? The LC of the Watch is allegedly not supposed to perform any extra-Watch functions, and is not typically seen as an authority figure over non-Watchmen. Yet at least one Northman (Alys) is overlooking those customary boundaries and imploring him to act like a king. The ultimate reason she gives for appealing to Jon over Stannis is simply one of practicality; she thinks that Stannis will be out of the picture, and basically, Jon’s her last hope for protection.

I've always assumed that the Lord Commander of the NW is in fact considered the actual Lord of the territories under his control (Brandon's Gift and the New Gift) with the same rights and duties as any other major Lord. Not long ago, minor lords in holdfasts with attendant smallfolk in villages, like Queenscrown, occupied the Gift. These smallfok weren't members of the Watch. They were bound to the NW the same way smallfolk are bound to Lords throughout Westeros (the manor system). (It would be interesting to know if the holdfast at Queenscrown passed to a NW officer once the New Gift was added to the Watch, or if a non-Watch bannerman continued to hold it.) The LCotNW would have been their Lord. If some villager committed a serious crime, the LC presumably heard the case and passed judgement.

In other words, the NW serves the realm, and it subservient to the realm, not to Winterfell. The LC is a Lord on the same level in theory as the other Lords Paramount, although he has much less actual prestige. The Stark in Winterfell does not hold authority over NW lands. If a LC goes rogue, the Stark in Winterfell deals with it not in his capacity as Lord Paramount of the North (formerly King in the North) but as a representative of the entire realm (Warden of the North in the Targ era), simply because he is closest.

I think that the LC's power would extend to justice over crimes committed on his territories by anyone, not just his own bannermen. For example, if a cattle thief stole some livestock from the Umbers and fled onto NW land, it would be the duty of the NW to catch him and see that justice was rendered. (The NW would also collect all the fines for speeding on the Kingsroad in their jurisdiction.) This seems to be the authority Jon is using. Alys Karstark is the rightful regent of Karhold while Harrion is captive, by longstanding law. Arnolf and Cregan are breaking the law, and if Cregan ventures into NW territory, it is the LC's duty to deal with it, especially when the rightful Lady of Karhold requests action.

At least that's how I interpreted this.

[Mithras]

The way Alys pleads with Jon is visually similar to the way Thetys pleads with Zeus as depicted here.

By the way, does anybody think that Axell requested Val for his base sexual needs?

[Queen Alienor]

Great analysis, everybody. I don't have much to add at this point, just:

In a way, I think Alys showing up at Castle Black and wanting to Jon and not to Stannis is meant to show in what a strange situation the North is and what they think of the Southrons. Usually, someone like Alys would go to Winterfell. There, she would talk to the Stark in Winterfell who would settle things without the king on the IT ever hearing about it. Alys not going to Stannis reflects that, I think. The North as a whole is in a situation they have likely not have had in quite some time: There is no Stark in Winterfell. The family that has ruled the North for over 8000 years is all but extinct. But that doesn't mean that people have forgotten. The North remembers, is a phrase that's repeated quite often. Here Alys decides to go to the last Stark, even if his name is Snow and he has taken the black, over a king, because even though Thorren Stark bend the knee, the Starks never really stopped being kings of the North. Until Robb, they simply never wore the title again. What I'm trying to say is that Alys seems to react to the fact that there are no Starks in WF anymore rather pragmatic: There is a son of Eddard Stark left, he is in a position to help (LC of the NW), let's go there. It's never specified how the other Northerners think of this, but I don't think Alys would have gone to LC Mormont. The fact that Jon is Eddard Starks son is something that people very much remember.

(I'm sorry if this was confusing, I just hope it made some sense)

[Fire Eater]

The way Alys pleads with Jon is visually similar to the way Thetys pleads with Zeus as depicted here.

By the way, does anybody think that Axell requested Val for his base sexual needs?

Jupiter was the king of the gods associated with eagles, the same animal that marked Jon. He was also associated with the oak, which we went over. He was also the divine witness to oaths.

[Julia H.]

Here's a real late-comer to this re-read. I finished ADwD for the first time only a couple of weeks ago, and I can't stop reading the series now. I'm also reading your fascinating discussion with great interest, and I hope you won't mind if my first post is response to a somewhat earlier part of the discussion, not the latest chapter. It's really difficult to catch up when one is so late!

Jon (and previous LC's) handling old and new problems:

Staffing problems:

There is apparently no apprentice to replace Maester Aemon, but perhaps men who are maester-material rarely choose to take the black. Jon, however, tries to address precisely this problem early on, when he sends Sam to Oldtown.

"I need you to become my new maester."

...

"If you ask the Citadel for more maesters..."

"I mean to. We'll have need of every one. Aemon Targaryen is not so easily replaced, however."

We don't see any armorer apprentices either, but can we be sure that there were never any? The larger part of the NW died in battle not long ago. (In the end, they were down to scarecrow sentinels.) For all we know, any number of apprentices to Donal Noye may have died with Mormont or Bowen Marsh or on the Wall. The NW will need a new armorer as well as a lot of other people - but Jon can only recruit whoever is available.

Perhaps Yoren was not the ideal PR person for the NW - but now Jon has sent out attractive young Dareon with his songs. Ultimately, this is not a good choice, but Jon has tried a new approach to recruiting, and he has tried to make the service look more attractive.

His new master-at-arms is at first Iron Emmett, an excellent swordsman, then Leathers, a wildling, who is great with wildling weapons. The latest recruits have a chance to train with both of them. Perhaps the expected result is that they will have received training in both fighting styles.

As for Satin, whatever the boy has been before, it probably wasn't his choice. Satin was born into a brothel and brought up for the “profession”. Jon can see some talent in him and is giving him a chance – it is probably the first real chance Satin has ever got in his life. Apart from that, Satin is probably in need of a positive adult male role model, the kind that boys usually find in their fathers, older brothers or teachers. If the black brothers are really as hostile and contemptuous towards him as Bowen Marsh suggests, it will be difficult for him to find such a role model even on the Wall. However, the Lord Commander can change that by grooming him – perhaps not for command but at least for a way of life fundamentally different from what Satin has known before. The fact that Satin has chosen Jon's gods indicates that he has already chosen his new role model as well.

The question of food

I don't think Jon is burying his head in the sand. He has asked for information from the one who is by profession the most competent at that matter. He understands the problem even though he doesn't have a ready-made solution. However, it is not that they are starving at the moment. The food they have will last for a while and in the meantime a solution can be found – as we know, Jon will find a solution. Yes, he shares their food supplies with the wildlings, meaning that less of that food will go to his brothers, but he means to find a way to feed them all in the long run.

As for the question of hunting in the Gift, they may be able to do that at the moment, but I doubt that it could be a long-term solution. The winter that is coming may last for a decade. How long will rabbits live in the Gift when the land is covered with snow and ice for years? If they are also hunted, the rabbit population will be extinct pretty soon. Jon needs to worry about their future supplies, and the rabbits of the present can't really help that.

Alerting the northmen to the Danger-beyond-the-Wall

It may be a step that Jon intends to take in future. After all, how long has he been a LC? Currently he is dealing with the wildling problem, the staffing problem, the food problem, the Stannis-on-the-Wall problem and is looking for information about the wights. All of these issues are urgent. OTOH, there is indeed little he could tell the northmen right now, besides, he also knows that the North has not recovered from the war yet. Actually, the war hasn't even finished. The Northern armies, as well as the Northern families, have suffered huge losses. New alliances are being formed, but things are rather uncertain. The North needs time to recover. The wildlings, however, cannot wait – they can only be saved now. Besides, every wildling saved and won over to the NW is worth two men – one more defender on the Wall and one less wight.

On a different topic: Did Jon "steal" Val – "the king's prize"?

When Jon returns to his chambers after seeing Val out, Edd brings him his breakfast.

He ate the bread and half an egg. He would have eaten the bacon, too, but the raven made off with it before he had the chance.

"Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed.

[Lummel]

Here's a real late-comer to this re-read. I finished ADwD for the first time only a couple of weeks ago, and I can't stop reading the series now. I'm also reading your fascinating discussion with great interest, and I hope you won't mind if my first post is response to a somewhat earlier part of the discussion, not the latest chapter. It's really difficult to catch up when one is so late!

...

The question of food

I don't think Jon is burying his head in the sand. He has asked for information from the one who is by profession the most competent at that matter. He understands the problem even though he doesn't have a ready-made solution. However, it is not that they are starving at the moment. The food they have will last for a while and in the meantime a solution can be found – as we know, Jon will find a solution. Yes, he shares their food supplies with the wildlings, meaning that less of that food will go to his brothers, but he means to find a way to feed them all in the long run...

Welcome to the reread Julia H. ! Don't worry, diving in like that is fine.

Yeah, I don't know on the question of food. In chapter IX Jon does reach towards a possible solution but we don't even know if it will work out - the loan agreement hasn't even reached Braavos by the end of ADWD so we are no where near the Night's Watch getting the cash or finding people who can and will sell them food (while they do get a haul of tradable items from the wildlings in a few chapters time by the end of ADWD the watch won't have any ships to take them to foreign markets so we're back to where we started).

I don't blame Jon for this for for the decision he makes. Rather I think the situation is typical of his and Daenerys' arcs in ADWD. There are no ideal solutions available to them, most of the time they are trying to make a trade off between something very bad (vast numbers of wights north of the wall) and something slightly less bad (lots of their own people dying of starvation). Even the chance of better solution offered by the Iron Bank comes with its own risks - high repayment schedules, interest rate rises, the threat of the wall being repossessed by the Iron Bank and tugged off to Essos by Bailiffs to be sold off at auction if they can't meet those repayments etc etc :laugh:

[Ragnorak]

Here's a real late-comer to this re-read. I finished ADwD for the first time only a couple of weeks ago, and I can't stop reading the series now. I'm also reading your fascinating discussion with great interest, and I hope you won't mind if my first post is response to a somewhat earlier part of the discussion, not the latest chapter. It's really difficult to catch up when one is so late!

<snip>

Welcome aboard, Julia! Glad you decided to join in. I have some notions about your thoughts that tie into this chapter I'll try and get to later. At the moment I find myself distracted by the caricature portrayal of the Southron Fools.

While I do think that Selyse and Axell carry a negative image that they earn through their own words and actions, Butterbumps is right to question the nature of the portrayal. This technique of having a negative caricature also comes up in Dany throughout her Meereen chapters. Throughout Learning to Lead it became clear that despite this superficial presentation of the Ghiscari there was a great deal to be read between the lines. I suspect the same is true here in Jon. For example Selyse did not come here because she was fed up with Cotter Pyke. Mel informed her of the Eastwatch attack and effectively summoned her to Castle Black. Selyse is also not on her way to the Nightfort as she claims. Something more involved is going on and the caricature portrayal is a technique Martin uses to help obfuscate a hidden agenda much like he does with Dany in Meereen.

I also suspect that there is a much bigger theme at play and I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet. Looking back to GoT the prologue uses a similar caricature presentation of Royce where he assumes the role of the Southron Fool. There is also age vs. youth and noble vs. common at play in that chapter. It feels like a horror movie where Royce is the guy who wants to check out the noise in the basement which adds to his diminished credibility in the reader's eye. His observations about it not being cold enough to die, the weapons, etc are actually quite reasonable despite the feel of the chapter and his choice of no fire is the same one The Halfhand makes. Royce is far more competent and reasonable than the mood of his portrayal imply.

After the prologue we get Bran I where the theme of justice is introduced and First Men justice and Southron justice are divided with the First Men flavor being distinctly more appealing. Our second chapter continues this North vs. South divide from its opening line.

Catelyn had never liked this godswood.

She had been born a Tully, at Riverrun far to the south, on the Red Fork of the Trident. The godswood there was a garden, bright and airy, where tall redwoods spread dappled shadows across tinkling streams, birds sang from hidden nests, and the air was spicy with the scent of flowers.

The gods of Winterfell kept a different sort of wood. It was a dark, primal place, three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it. It smelled of moist earth and decay. No redwoods grew here. This was a wood of stubborn sentinel trees armored in grey-green needles, of mighty oaks, of ironwoods as old as the realm itself. Here thick black trunks crowded close together while twisted branches wove a dense canopy overhead and misshappen roots wrestled beneath the soil. This was a place of deep silence and brooding shadows, and the gods who lived here had no names.

Here we get the Southron POV in Cat and despite her long years in the North this is a strange, alien and frightening place that is specifically contrasted with a far more positive version in her Southron youth. Martin goes on with the contrast from Cat's own experience as she reflects upon her own religious experiences.

Catelyn had been anointed with the seven oils and named in the rainbow of light that filled the sept of Riverrun. She was of the Faith, like her father and grandfather and his father before him. Her gods had names, and their faces were as familiar as the faces of her parents. Worship was a septon with a censer, the smell of incense, a seven-sided crystal alive with light, voices raised in song. The Tullys kept a godswood, as all the great houses did, but it was only a place to walk or read or lie in the sun. Worship was for the sept.

For her sake, Ned had built a small sept where she might sing to the seven faces of god, but the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest.

Cat worships in the Sept which is so close to Christianity that it can't help but feel familiar to the average Western reader. Again the portrayal is the familiar vs. the strange, the light vs. the dark under the shadow of North vs. South.

“Is he afraid?” Ned asked.

“A little,” she admitted. “He is only three.”

Ned frowned. “He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.”

“Yes,” Catelyn agreed. The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

So the foundations for the Southron Fool portrayal stretch back to our initial world building in the opening of the series. In many ways there the Stark Northern perspective is the one that a typical reader would be inclined to find dark, harsh, or alien compared to the "more civilized" Southron perspective. Most of us are quite comfortable with a three year old being a little afraid of a direwolf in our parenting philosophy. Yet it is this Northern perspective that sways us over the course of the first book-- this Northern perspective that demands Robert kill Lady himself and look Dany in the eye as he kills her instead of hiding behind assassins.

What is going on with this caricature portrayal of the Southron Fool whose roots stretch back to the very opening of the series?

[The Sleeper]

Selyse and co reaction to Wun Wun is presented definitely as funny and narrow-minded, but let's not kid ourselves most people would piss themselves at the presence of a fourteen-foot tall furred bipead thought to be a myth... But, I would like to contrast this with the reaction of a certain deseaced southron lord, who is very conscious of class and station and who upon the invasion of Shaga son of Dolf in his council, did not miss a beat and played him and his fellow clansmen like fiddles.

That aside I'm not sure that the contempt this group of people invokes has to do with the fact that they are Southron or simply fools. These are after all the people Stannis left behind and if we judge about his opinions of the guards he left with Melisandre, he does not them in any esteem. Even Melisandre herself, seems to have little use for Selyse. Since her first appearance Selyse stirkes me as a person who has shielded herself in her status and isolated herself from reality. This comes through, in the maester Cressen prologue when she passionately urges Stannis to ignore and any reality and to compel and threaten people who are more powerfull than him. Naturally, she has gathered around her like-minded flaterers who gather together and play at court, a court that basically no-one pays any attention to. It is telling that she attends to the functions that Stannis is uncomfortable are unable to deal with, yet the two not only don't seem to be complementary, but rahter to seem to simply occupy the same space without actually having any interaction.

The most prominent is Axell Florent who suitably and tellingly holds an office he invented himself and while a courtier, presents his idea "of a man of the world" by making an effort to be as vulgar and crass as he could be.

So why Selyse hangs on in at Castle Black? She took it upon herself to "take care" of things while Stannis is away, though no one asked her to and she has no authority to do so. She needs somewhere to play at court and she can't do that in the isolation of the Nightfort.

[Lummel]

...Ok so how does Selyse know that Eastwatch is where the attack will come? The only reasonable answer is Mel told her so. Selyse moving to Castle Black doesn't require prophetic ability after dropping that little tidbit in her lap. It may be even less insightful since that means that Mel sent Selyse a raven and she may have even explicitly told her to come to Castle Black. It seems we have Mel engineering her own prophetic success here. She may view Selyse as a useful pawn to help her win over Jon or she may have decided that 50 more people were needed to increase the awe inspiring nature of her duckling horde. Either way it seems pretty clear this wasn't something she saw in her fires...

The only reasonable answer is that Cotter Pyke told her :laugh: . Melisandre telling her is unreasonable, firstly because she has no access to ravenmail and secondly she doesn't give any appearance of being interested in Selyse anymore (assuming here that originally Melisandre got to Stannis through Selyse).

On the otherhand we know that Jon and Cotter Pyke have been in regular ravenmail contact and its a fair assumption that Jon would have told Cotter Pyke about the vision of an attack because you would, wouldn't you. From there it is either a case of Cotter discussing the news with Selyse or that the same rule applies at Eastwatch as at Castle Black that: "a village has no secrets, and no more did Castle Black" particularly since Pyke's mail has to be read to him. In anycase one could hardly keep news like that secret since it would require putting Eastwatch on some kind of alert.

I don't think that Melisandre sees any use in Selyse or her followers. We know from her POV what she is interested in - Jon. Melisandre in this chapter shows a distinct lack of interest to pander to Selyse who by contrast appears as the one who needs Melisandre and wants her support - as Butterbumps was saying Selyse is a rather sad and insecure person, Melisandre however is very confident in her abilities.

...So why Selyse hangs on in at Castle Black? She took it upon herself to "take care" of things while Stannis is away, though no one asked her to and she has no authority to do so. She needs somewhere to play at court and she can't do that in the isolation of the Nightfort.

Yes, I think that is there too, this is a move about status. Being at Castle Black and having the Lord Commander of the Watch in attendance must seem better than being at Eastwatch with an illiterate lesser commander swearing away in her hearing.

Rereading the chapter I was struck by how parochial Jon is - asking Nestoris if he had seen Sam, Aemon and Gilly. Jon plainly has no idea how big and busy Braavos is. In that sense contra Florent he definitely isn't a man of the world!

The Iron Bank comes in with the idea of the power of money. I'm not sure how well that works practically in this setting, but never mind, a more interesting issue is how does it sit with Varys' riddle? Here Jon believes that the merchant's money can win the throne yet over in Essos or in the approach to Winterfell we see that other people don't think like that, they don't think that money is enough, that there has to be a cause that people believe in whether that be The Ned's little girl or Prince Aegon.

The wildlings running off down the kings road - if they can't stop the Moles Town wildings from running off then what does Jon image will happen when Tormund's people come through the Wall? What cause will keep them at their duty?