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Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)


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Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Any ideas?

Uh, wife of Lot looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt. Considering the big Wall of ICE in close proximity I find the 'carved of salt' comparison strange here. Is it a reference? What does it mean?

As for 'women are the strong ones' :dunno: IMO this is a proverb. Like an empty phrase. I don't think it has much value except with what it tells us about the characters and their mental states.

Like, ser Arys is not too bright and Tommen is younger than Myrcella. He is trying to convince himself and is using a proverb (*facepalm*).

As for Jon, IMO he is impressed by Val's composure, but who is he comparing her to? 'Mance'? Guy is burning to death, it is hardly the same! Jon? He was cool and composed on the outside, as well. Let us remember baby-Bran from books of yore and how he kept his pony steady on his first beheading.

Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place.

Same as Jon did? ...Is this a thought that shows that he is placing Val in the same place he held for Ygritte? Or is he thinking of whether he would have been mourned or if Ygritte would have watched him burn?

He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way.

He doesn't stop with that thought, he immediately turns to another woman who needs strength. Val - Ygritte - Gilly. One is a mother, another a warrior, what is Val?

Incidentally, Gilly's strength happens to be the polar opposite of what we see in Val here, yet she is strong. Some food for thought for the reader, as well.

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Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Any ideas?

Perhaps more a reflection that the traditional view of seeing women as inherently weaker is wrong? And perhaps that these particular individuals show a strength that the POV character finds admirable (therefor also calling into question the "traditional wisdom" that women are weaker).

We also have this expressed by two men who are quite chivalrous. Interestingly, Ser Arys was inspired to his betrayal by the unchivalrous treatment of Sansa and Jon has proven himself to be both rather chivalrous and able to value women somewhat outside the traditional role.

It's an interesting angle to pursue.

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Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Any ideas?

A simple statement of fact?

I'm not sure how much value can be placed on Stannis leadership on following Jon's advice. Stannis is clearly pissed at Jon for raining on his parade and prior to accepting his plan he makes him an offer he can't refuse. Jon promises him an alternative to his plan after he pisses all over it, but will not tell him because he agrees to it. Hence Stannis's comments on Jon's haggling skills and his ancestry.

It also seems to me that while Jon does not know the specifics of the Karstark betrayal his knowledge of the North, makes him immediately aware of the red flags. He knows something stinks. Beyond the logistical problems of Stannis' plan, I don't think he can bring himself to believe that the Dreadfort is as vulnerable as the queen's men maintain. There is also a parallel with Theon's assault on Winterfell. Attack on the enemy's heart while he is dealing with the Ironborn. Jon's caution's could have applied to Theon and it seems both plans were ultimately unsustainable.

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Uh, wife of Lot looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt. Considering the big Wall of ICE in close proximity I find the 'carved of salt' comparison strange here. Is it a reference? What does it mean?...

Yes. I have never heard that used as a proverb in day to day English, so it strikes me as a Biblical reference. So what is the relationship between Lot's wife looking back and Val watching the burning of Mance? Both are witness to destruction, the one of the city on the plain, the other to the Kingship of Mance and his ambition to unify the wildlings behind him and lead them south of the Wall?

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Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Any ideas?

I've noticed this, its hard to see if the author is trying to get at something or not. Arys lost his life over the plan to crown Myrcella, Jon might have lost his life believing he was trying to save his sister, I'm not sure if it was meant to be foreshadowing or something like that, the reference did sort of make me think of Ser Arys so I guess the author did intend this but maybe not, could just be a red herring.

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Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Any ideas?

Both men are feeling weak and compare their perceived weakness to strengths they've seen in women. Arys was in fact being weak yet his thoughts ran to Tommen and Myrcella and not himself and the strong woman who was bending his own will.

Jon is feeling weak but not actually acting weak like Arys did. He also makes a more honest internal comparison of Ygritte and Val to himself rather than deflecting the analogy on to other people. Arianne's offer to Arys is the offer Stannis made to Jon and Jon turned down. (freedom from vows to marry and sit in a Lord Paramount's seat in exchange to support for an Iron Throne claimant)

Yes, this is exactly it!

Compare Stannis's "harsh but fair" to say Randyll Tarly. Tarly is just harsh, really, and he has this side that he just doesn't care about people. I mean, why does Tarly uphold justice (or the semblance of it)? It seems more to be "because it is the done thing", while Stannis actually has a belief that it is actually right.

Even if Stannis is uptight and too focused on justice, he believes it is right very deeply. I mean why else would he suggest banning brothels in Kings Landing? It's of course hilarious to the reader in it's wrongheadedness, but it's an idealistic position, you might say, based in Stannis's belief that prostitution is Wrong and Sinful etc etc. Hence I think also why Davos could appeal to his saving the country. I don't think that would have been a position that Tarly would ever have considered.

So Stannis grumbles and grouches and threatens to behead Jon Snow, and he can definitely be lead astray by manipulative Melisandre (I definitely think we should get Lummel his own Red Bird, but perhaps with a complimentary cage for ease of handling? :P ). When Stannis does stuff that is morally very wrong, it's normally because he gets bad advice, but in his defence, he also seems to at least be able to be convinced by the better stuff, even if it brings out the grumbling and the grouching.

You can't really laugh at someone like Randyll Tarly because there is no humanity to base that humour on, it seems to me. Stannis at least has it. Tarly is just monstrous and crule.

The comparison of Stannis to Tarly is quite a good one and rather enlightening. (It also inspired a sad yet funny mental tangent as I tried to imagine Stannis as Sam's father and Sam's life as the son of Stannis.)

Yes. I have never heard that used as a proverb in day to day English, so it strikes me as a Biblical reference. So what is the relationship between Lot's wife looking back and Val watching the burning of Mance? Both are witness to destruction, the one of the city on the plain, the other to the Kingship of Mance and his ambition to unify the wildlings behind him and lead them south of the Wall?

I think the Biblical reference is clear but its meaning is not. Sodom and Gomorrah was an act of divine justice that Lot's wife was commanded to not look upon. Mel commands them to witness the divine justice which is also inherent in the divine justice of the old gods with the First Men tradition of justice. Looking away from the divine punishment is bad. This is further complicated because Mel is commanding them to look upon an illusion so is it really divine justice? It is also Val that is willfully turning herself into a pillar of salt-- it is the very thing Jon is admiring her for and thinks of as "strength." One interpretation holds that Lot's wife beheld God and the sight Him in His full glory turned her to salt. That take holds it is simply the natural outcome of witnessing the divine (like Raiders of the Lost Ark perhaps) rather than retribution for not obeying the command. Is Val playing a mummer's pillar of salt to match Mel's mummery of divine justice or should we be focusing on the inversion of the command to look rather than not look back? There are other common takes on the pillar of salt too like that Lot's wife was punished for failing to obey a divine command or for a lack of faith. It isn't an especially settled Biblical moral.

There are other themes that resonate better with the series even if Val's specific connection is a little vague. Lot was basically protecting people under guest right. The idea of violating guest right with a sex angle recalls Edmure and the Red Wedding and possibly Tywin/Gregor with the Tysha/Layna and maybe even the events in Winterfell. Lot's daughters are a parable that tells the Israelites that neighboring tribes are also descended from Abraham which relates to the Wildlings believing they are of one people with the Starks of Winterfell. The incest angle could refer to what started this whole mess, the Targs, Craster or just exist outside the pillar of salt reference.

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Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly.

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones.

Both the KG and the NW members are sworn to celibacy, hold no titles, father no children or have no lands. Their lives are dedicated to the King/Realm. Both Arys and Jon held high hopes while joining their orders, which were extremely glorified in their eyes. But from the inside, things turned out to be ugly.

Arys witnessed the whoring of his brothers (Boros, Preston). He even learned that Lewyn Martell of the legendary KG of Aerys kept a paramour. Jon witnessed his brothers mining “buried treasures” in Mole’s Town.

Arys witnessed the honorable KG now includes cravens, oathbreakers, pets. Especially Sansa’s beating by the KG members disgusted him as it was completely against the code of chivalry. Jon realized most of his brothers are murderers, rapists, thieves and as Aemon feared, they rebelled to kill their LC and will stab another.

“Aegon the Dragon made the Kingsguard and its vows, but what one king does another can undo, or change. Formerly the Kingsguard served for life, yet Joffrey dismissed Ser Barristan so his dog could have a cloak. Myrcella would want you to be happy, and she is fond of me as well. She will give us leave to marry if we ask.” Arianne put her arms around him and laid her face against his chest. The top of her head came to just beneath his chin. “You can have me and your white cloak both, if that is what you want.”

She is tearing me apart.

Arianne offered her hand and promise to make him her consort to rule Dorne together. She told him that he could be released from his vows if he wished so. Arys was tested by a seductress (Arianne) and he failed to keep his vows.

Jon was tested quite similarly. Stannis offered him to release him from his vows, remove the taint of his bastardy and make him the Lord of Winterfell with the hand of Val (as charming as Arianne). Jon had a hard time refusing this offer.

Arys was involved in the conspiracy of crowning Myrcella. As most of the clever men told us, to crown her was to kill her at that time. Stannis already crowned Val who is blonde like Myrcella. I think we can say that to make Val the Lady of Winterfell is to kill her. The North will not accept it, even if Jon had accepted the offer and be legitimized.

I think this common observation (women are the strong ones) was done due to their vows being tested so harshly, which made them feel weak. Whenever someone swears a vow in ASOIAF, we can be sure that GRRM will test that person bitterly and more than once, each time bringing more seducing options to the front.

Dunk was tested several times in D&E stories but he handled all of them quite well. Did the fact that him being thick as a castle wall help him? Similarly, Brienne followed her vows until the bitter end. Of course her tests are different than any of them but still, she has the unyielding sense of right and wrong we observe in Dunk (probably that is because she is a descendant of Dunk).

Barristan is true steel and he never faced much difficulty in keeping his vows.

“Ser Barristan is a valiant knight and true; but none, I think, has ever called him cunning.”

Ned was always tested by his vows and the Promise. His honor and disgust against spilling the blood of the innocent made him keep his vows until the end. Only the threat to her daughters yielded him to confess his “treason”.

In conclusion, what qualities are necessary to keep one’s vows? Did the Bearded Priests of Norvos solve this problem?

Serve. Obey. Protect. He had sworn those vows at six-and-ten, the day he wed his axe. Simple vows for simple men, the bearded priests had said.

Serve. Obey. Protect. Simple vows for a simple man.

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Setting aside my vast disappointment that you may not in fact formulate drunken plans involving fire and seductive redheads to steal a throne for yourself over there across the pond we'll move back to Stannis. I'm going to have to get you a red bird for your birthday...

What, one of these?

...You can't really laugh at someone like Randyll Tarly because there is no humanity to base that humour on, it seems to me. Stannis at least has it. Tarly is just monstrous and crule.

I feel the difference comes from what we know about what drives them. Stannis the awkward middle child jumping at his chance to be special, making that terrible bargain and being prepared to give up anything and bend on everything to attain his goal is more sympathetic than Tarly's vaunting, brittle pride :dunno:

...I think the Biblical reference is clear but its meaning is not...

A great set of points!

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Jon V ADWD




Overview


A short chapter that takes place after Stannis and his army have moved out. Their presence since the end of ASOS is abruptly over and Castle Black has become strangely listless.



Jon has fallen asleep over the books that he had brought up from the book depository. The uneaten remains of his dinner congealed at his side. Awake he worries about the fates of the party he sent to Oldtown before joining the column heading down to Mole's Town. The Wildlings brought through the Wall in Jon III have been abandoned. They are fed and guarded by the Watch. Despite the latter, wildlings have carved faces on a number of the trees around their encampment. At the Dole session some wildlings complain about the limited food given to them – Jon takes the opportunity to offer full rations to any who will join with him working with the watch in defence of the Wall against the White Walkers offering (eventually) to take anyone over the age of twelve who is prepared to obey orders. Of the thousand in Mole's Town 63 join with Jon. Marsh is aghast, Jon pleased.




Observations


  • “Jon Snow had fallen asleep over his work again” p267
  • How many stewards are literate? They really can't find one to catalogue the book collection?
  • “Bowen Marsh had urged him to move into the Old Bear's former chambers in the King's Tower after Stannis had vacated them, but Jon had declined. Moving into the King's chambers could too easily be taken to mean he did not expect the king to return.” p267 a public gesture of support and confidence in Stannis. Perhaps exactly the kind of gesture that Bowen fearful of what might happen doesn't want Jon to make?
  • We had best all keep our shields up” p268
  • Stops in the yard to offer encouragement to the trainees – as he did in Jon I ADWD (p50), also continues the theme in Jon II ADWD making “the rounds of Castle Black each day” (p103) making personal contact
  • “He would have men enough about him; if it came to blood two more would hardly matter.” p268 grim foreshadowing of Jon XIII?
  • Jon has plainly discussed a plan to start recruiting Wildlings with Bowen Marsh, Marsh has equally plainly already expressed his disagreement earlier.
  • The want of good men...Jon reflects on the loss of good officers
  • Snowing again...the landscape is growing harsher
  • The three trees with new faces are watching and so is Mormont's Raven
  • Thought about eating the raven – picking up on Jon I “Roast raven...and half a pint of ale” (p47) for breakfast
  • Moles Town – also in ruins much like parts of Castle Black
  • “The wildlings had done this dance before” p271 – 'dance' to crop up again as an image meaning playing a part, having a place in a structure...
  • “broken men” p270 a lot of these in AFFC & ADWD, broken men in a devastated landscape
  • “Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow” p271 Why is that given to Val to say? More of the wise woman. Hints also of “you know nothing, Jon Snow”. So Jon has been chatting up Val as well while on his rounds?
  • “My own gods are the old gods, the gods of the north” p274 unusual public declaration aligning himself with the audience
  • “the work is endless” p274 the theme of the opening of the chapter!
  • “whose side will they fight on?” p275



Analysis


“You don't miss much do you, Jon?” Jon I AGOT


We see Jon as observer in this chapter– realising why there are so few babies, taking in the meaning of a face carved by the Wildlings on a tree: “not a friendly face...Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it” p270 and making some observational jokes playing on Dolorous Edd's appearance and Marsh fevering for counting – indeed two Jon jokes in one chapter – is this a record?



The wildlings brought their gods with them after all. Jon was not surprised. Men do not give up their gods so easily. The whole pageant that Lady Melisandre had orchestrated beyond the Wall suddenly seemed as empty as a mummer's farce” p269 Jon is left to clear up the mess that Stannis and Melisandre have created. The Wildlings have been abandoned in Moles Town to stew in their own bitterness. Have they carved faces on trees in protest or is there more to it? No one in Jon's column talks about it about from Jon and Edd, but they all see.



“You got to pick” (p271) choice and selection


The final theme in the chapter is of choice and selection. The Wildlings are offered a choice. First between an apple or an onion, Jon then plays on the idea of making a choice to float his plan to them. Those who follow him will get the same rations the Watch get, but will have to obey orders.



“An apple or an onion” (p272)


The apple is small and shrivelled, the other apples are withered, not much to seduce someone with. The onion has its layers suggesting complexity but Jon isn't offering the Wildlings fruit and vegetables like a greengrocer. Instead he is offering them a fight and by implication “get your turnips and your onions and crawl back inside your holes” p274 dignity. Or is this the apple he is holding out to them?



Making a common cause


Jon wins over some of the Wildlings by offering them a common cause – defence against the White Walkers (picking up on the conversation in Jon XI between Stannis and Jon). Jon however is a man of feeling and applies his empathy to the situation. First by appreciating the resistence of the Thenns to working with him: “I would feel the same if some one asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters” p273, this we know from Jon II! Jon here is also honest about his own feelings. Secondly he makes allowances for tender consciousnesses: the Wildlings can worship who they want (a breach with the conditions laid down by Stannis and Melisandre in Jon III, and a commentary upon Jon's opinion of their approach) and they don't have to take the Black. All (or indeed 'all') they have to do is obey orders, or loose their heads – here Jon makes political capital out of his decapitation of Slynt in Jon II ADWD so some good does come of the man (“Disobey an order, and I'll have your head off. Ask my brothers if I won't. They've seen me do it.” p274).



We get a couple of instances of Jon thinking back to things that people have told him and applying that information in this chapter. We have him recalled Val telling him that there are good and bad people among the Wildlings even as there are among the kneelers “the trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats” (p271) (something that is not always possible!). Separating the sheep and the goats is an interesting phrase - who else does this? Marsh and Jon discuss what is to be done with them –Jon's answer is to train them and then split them up. Will this be enough, afterall “the Watch is not what it was. Too few honest men to keep the rogues in line.” was something that Aemon said back in Jon VI ASOS reflecting on the death of Mormont.



Jon also remembers the Mance's words “They follow strength. They follow the man.” p275 as Harma's brother Halleck and then their cousins follow Jon “I don't like you, crow,...but I never liked the Mance neither, no more'n my sister did. Still, we fought for him. Why not fight for you?” p275


The same common cause that brought them over to Mance now brings them to Jon. Of the 300 men of fighting age – but including the wounded and the broken, plus spearwives of whom there are maybe up to a hundred, 63 join Jon.


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What, one of these?

I feel the difference comes from what we know about what drives them. Stannis the awkward middle child jumping at his chance to be special, making that terrible bargain and being prepared to give up anything and bend on everything to attain his goal is more sympathetic than Tarly's vaunting, brittle pride :dunno:

A great set of points!

Yes!! Well.. uh ... maybe. The bird certainly looks willing to contend for a throne but you have that hierarchy of birds over there. Is this some bastard's trick? Is that some bird befitting the Earl of Outhouseshire? If that's not a kingly bird you're going back to remedial delusions of grandeur classes with Randyl Tarly as an instructor. Have you seen Prince Charles? You can totally take that guy. He doesn't even have dragons.

The more I think about the pillar of salt reference the best I can surmise is that it is an act of defiance. Lot's wife was turned to salt for "violating" the terms of the divine punishment. Val turns herself to salt as if in defiance of Mel's god's punishment. Vaguely akin to Sansa not kneeling at her wedding or something in that vein.

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Good job, Lummel, I got the Matthew reference as well.



Jo Maltese did a thread on the three trees



Three Trees: Ash, Chestnut and Oak



The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. (...) A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the wall.



The ash is facing north to the Wall and CB, just where Jon's eyes seem to be focused at the moment. Ash trees were associated by the Celts with healing and enchantment, especially transformation and empowerment in terms of destiny. The ash tree is Lord Snow about to undergo a major transformation and healing after the Ides of Marsh. I think the ash also goes with the story provided of Yggdrasil, the ash tree, containing the dragon, Níðhöggr, as Jon's wolf/ash identity is hiding a dragon. The dragon, Níðhöggr, is said to be freed from the ash tree at the time of Ragnorak just as the dragon is said to wake from stone, or AA will be reborn at the time of the Long Night 2.0. The dragon, Jon's true Targaryen identity, will be freed from the ash tree of Lord Snow.



A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. (...)​The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying "Corn, corn, corn."



The chestnut tree is connected with the underworld. Leafless and skeletal bring the image of death. The chestnut tree is also connected with longevity and honesty. The raven on the chestnut tree branch above the icy stream could foreshadow BR, who is over 120 years-old, and situated next to an underground river, helping Jon from the underworld of the CotF cave with Jon probably in between life and death, and giving him the honest truth (of likely his heritage).



Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. (...) but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.



The oak was regarded as the "King of Trees," and was connected with strength, endurance and wisdom. King Arthur's Round Table was made from oak. The oak was the tree of life with it's branches stretching into the sky and it's roots into the underworld. The oak was connected between Heaven and Earth, or another version of ice and fire. There is also the story of the Oak King who defeated the forces of darkness, and battled the Holly King when the seasons turned. The oak was associated with the thunder gods, the highest gods of the Pantheon such as Thor and Dagda, the protectors of humanity, and Zeus and Jupiter, the kings of the gods. The oak in this instance is fixed upon the kingsroad. The oak tree is a fully-developed Jon, the king, the balance between ice and fire and AA, the protector of humanity.



It's wounds being as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it does bring to mind Daemon Targaryen when he carved into the weirwood at Harrenhal which bleeds afresh every spring.



ETA: The oak watched the village perimeter, like a guard or sentry. I guess that could be a clue to Jon as King and AA, Protector of the Realm.


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Minor quibble perhaps, but a real chestnut tree would not be able to grow that far north in that climate. For instance, in Scandinavia some very sheltered southern gardens may grow chestnut, rarely. It does not occur naturally.

All we have is the horse chestnut. If we are talking feet of snow, icy streams etc and winter every nine or so years, then the Westeros chestnut must be much hardier than the real one.

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...The more I think about the pillar of salt reference the best I can surmise is that it is an act of defiance. Lot's wife was turned to salt for "violating" the terms of the divine punishment. Val turns herself to salt as if in defiance of Mel's god's punishment. Vaguely akin to Sansa not kneeling at her wedding or something in that vein.

Hierarchy of birds - do you mean this "An Eagle for an Emperor, a Gyrfalcon for a King; a Peregrine for a Prince, and a Saker for a Knight; a Merlin for a lady, a Goshawk for a Yeoman, a Sparrowhawk for a Priest, and a Kestrel for a Knave" ?

Defiance is interesting and fits in with the idea of the buck stopping with Jon and he being the one who has to pick up the pieces and make it all work. I mean there is this massive piece of political theatre in which Val is meant to be one of the key players yet Jon in your interpretation sees her as in defiance of Melisandre's god. Here again in this chapter we have the contrast between the frightened and hungry Wildlings, burning weirwood branches to pass through the Wall in Jon III and the bitter and resentful Wildlings in Jon V lurking down and out in mole's town. I wonder if Stannis had gone with his original plan how many of the wildlings would have gone south with him? Or would they deserted later on if forced to march away at spearpoint?

...Jo Maltese did a thread on the three trees...

Lots of ideas in that thread, thanks. Although I think it curious to link those trees to Jon and to apply symbols connected to those trees to Jon when they have been chosen and carved by Wildlings, presumably for their own purposes :dunno:

Is marking the trees only an act of defiance or do they expect the gods to be able to use the trees, are they meant to be there to watch the approaches to Moles Town and keep the Wildlings safe?

Minor quibble perhaps, but a real chestnut tree would not be able to grow that far north in that climate... the Westeros chestnut must be much hardier than the real one.

Fantasy trees for a fantasy book!

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Lots of ideas in that thread, thanks. Although I think it curious to link those trees to Jon and to apply symbols connected to those trees to Jon when they have been chosen and carved by Wildlings, presumably for their own purposes :dunno:

Jon grows a lot through his experience with wildlings, and the people helping him are BranRaven north of the Wall, Val and according to one theory of Paper Weaver, Gerrick Kingsblood and his son when burned by Melisandre. She needs kingsblood, and Gerrick's surname speaks for itself. I don't think Melisandre would do it to heal Jon but for some other spell. The wildlings have left their mark on Jon, and are likely his biggest bloc of supporters at the Wall.

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Great analysis as usual Lummel




“Bowen Marsh had urged him to move into the Old Bear's former chambers in the King's Tower after Stannis had vacated them, but Jon had declined. Moving into the King's chambers could too easily be taken to mean he did not expect the king to return.” p267 a public gesture of support and confidence in Stannis. Perhaps exactly the kind of gesture that Bowen fearful of what might happen doesn't want Jon to make?



Interesting that you view it this way. I have always felt this was rather the result of Jon being pragmatic. For me, rather than sending a message he is mindful not to send one or rather of how his actions could be construed. Though therei is something to be said about how Bowen might view it all.



Mel and Stannis’ “choice” reduced the free folk from the open air to the underground cellars of Mole’s Towns. Despite the invitation to ‘come into the light’ the free wildings are living in a darkness of sorts. There’s something chilling in the fact that they have become a form of living dead just like the wights as a result of Mel and Stannis’ charade considering the charade took place to portray Stannis, not only as the true King, but also as the savior from darkness and wights, etc. (beginning to dread another curse from Ragnorak at this point ;) )



Just like the wights are not the only form of broken men, we see there are also other forms of darkness and that any sort of authority is not necessarily derived from gestures of power. Jon with his offer is being set up as a deliverer from darkness where the free folk are concerned.



I really like the idea that Lummel put forth about Jon offering a fight. It stands in contrast with Mel promising them ‘life’, a life of less worth as everything else that made it worthy was taken from them. There’s a parallel to Reek asking for a sword, a fight, and dignity back rather than carry on and dying a broken man.



In analyzing Jon’s dealing with the free folk in this chapter I think we see him implement the ‘third course’ appeal. In the end I feel the choice is not reduced to an onion or an apple (both seeming to symbolize a continuance of the current status given that in both instances the wildings are dependent on the NW to provide either the apple or the onion), but the third course, in this case, a fight.


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Great Analysis Lummel.



My thoughts on the chapter:



It must be a poor steward who can't read or write.



I took the fact that Jon not moving into the King's Tower as Jon being ignorant of being either Robb's or Rhaegar's heir. If there is a Conspiracy happening in the North, with some wanting to make Jon King, then it could mean that he is ignorant of that fact too.



I like the theory of the ash, chestnut and oak trees. What do you guys think of the first one, the ash, being called 'the big drunkard on the hill' by Edd.



I like the joking way that Jon and Edd talk to each other, trying to keep it a bit light.

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(beginning to dread another curse from Ragnorak at this point ;) )

Yes! You will all suffer and burn for your ... what am I worried about again? Have you joined Lummel in letting a good lager distract you from grasping a throne that is ripe for the taking? I'll send you the red bird and book of matches World Domination Starter Kit too. (Batteries and religiously fanatical redhead not included.)

Great analysis as usual Lummel

Interesting that you view it this way. I have always felt this was rather the result of Jon being pragmatic. For me, rather than sending a message he is mindful not to send one or rather of how his actions could be construed. Though therei is something to be said about how Bowen might view it all.

Mel and Stannis’ “choice” reduced the free folk from the open air to the underground cellars of Mole’s Towns. Despite the invitation to ‘come into the light’ the free wildings are living in a darkness of sorts. There’s something chilling in the fact that they have become a form of living dead just like the wights as a result of Mel and Stannis’ charade considering the charade took place to portray Stannis, not only as the true King, but also as the savior from darkness and wights, etc. (beginning to dread another curse from Ragnorak at this point ;) )

Just like the wights are not the only form of broken men, we see there are also other forms of darkness and that any sort of authority is not necessarily derived from gestures of power. Jon with his offer is being set up as a deliverer from darkness where the free folk are concerned.

I really like the idea that Lummel put forth about Jon offering a fight. It stands in contrast with Mel promising them ‘life’, a life of less worth as everything else that made it worthy was taken from them. There’s a parallel to Reek asking for a sword, a fight, and dignity back rather than carry on and dying a broken man.

In analyzing Jon’s dealing with the free folk in this chapter I think we see him implement the ‘third course’ appeal. In the end I feel the choice is not reduced to an onion or an apple (both seeming to symbolize a continuance of the current status given that in both instances the wildings are dependent on the NW to provide either the apple or the onion), but the third course, in this case, a fight.

The darkness vs. open air angle is a good one especially since "darkness" is what they supposedly didn't choose when taking Mel's offer. There's a bit of a prison theme here too that reflects the theme of that Mance burning chapter you had pointed out. Jon is offering freedom from the prison, freedom to keep their gods, freedom from having to take the vows or kneel. Deliverance from darkness also ties into the Biblical sheep and goats reference. That reference is about final judgment yet what we see here is Jon foregoing judgment (and Marsh engaging in it.) There's a "born again" baptism like offer here to wash away past sins that comes with the delivery from darkness. There's a religious conversion undertone here (at least a Christian one) to this offer that includes foregoing the prior mandatory religious conversion.

(Hmm.. shepherds, pillar of salt, goats from the sheep... was there a Noah's Ark reference we missed in slaughtering all but one breeding pair last chapter?)

Stannis is planning a marriage to bind the Wildlings but Jon uses a different tactic here. Later he'll use the marriage angle with the Thenns. Is there a tool for every task theme here?

Like the Theon analogy and the blending of broken men and wights deserves some more attention, but I'm out of time.

The Ash tree as a drunkard makes me think of a potential for three kings in the trees with Robert as the first but I'd need to ponder it more. The raven in the tree is a bit of an answer from the old gods to the face carvings.

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Thanks, a great story though it seems a pity that they have to move the tree

...Mel and Stannis’ “choice” reduced the free folk from the open air to the underground cellars of Mole’s Towns. Despite the invitation to ‘come into the light’ the free wildings are living in a darkness of sorts. There’s something chilling in the fact that they have become a form of living dead just like the wights as a result of Mel and Stannis’ charade considering the charade took place to portray Stannis, not only as the true King, but also as the savior from darkness and wights, etc...

Third Course, yes, that is a better way to read it than the apple or an onion that I was trying to see. It is rather like Melisandre saying that an onion is rotten or not, then along comes Sam and cuts off the rot.

The irony of Melisandre promising them the light and the reality of the wildlings being pushed into a living death in the darkness is also very nice.

I don't know about the King's Tower. It seems to me that what ever Jon does or does not do in regard to where he sleeps sends a message. There is no neutral option, whatever he chooses can be interpreted one way or another. This time round I'm certainly more open to seeing Jon as wanting Stannis to win which is influencing how I see it, so there is that ;)

...It must be a poor steward who can't read or write...

I like the joking way that Jon and Edd talk to each other, trying to keep it a bit light.

I agree on the Stewards, that seems odd, but clearly they must be managing with very few literate stewards (or Jon doesn't want anybody else to do a job that he is saving for Sam). The Jon Edd chat is nice, this is the flip side of Jon feeling isolated I suppose

...(Hmm.. shepherds, pillar of salt, goats from the sheep... was there a Noah's Ark reference we missed in slaughtering all but one breeding pair last chapter?)

Stannis is planning a marriage to bind the Wildlings but Jon uses a different tactic here. Later he'll use the marriage angle with the Thenns. Is there a tool for every task theme here?...

Well, a Noah's arc reference...why not? I mean we can read Maester Luwin's abbreviated history of Westeros as being inspired by the Genesis narrative. There is Eden, then Man comes along and generally trashes the place, the gods strike back with a variety of extreme weather events, man makes a covenant with the gods, but certain extreme weather events remain as a warning.

Survival is down to the ingenuity of men and women but the idea of the extremity of the destruction is preserved. I suppose Genesis is the obvious inspiration if you are writing your own origin story, the use of references to Jesus in regard to Jon might point to him as resolving the deeper disconnect between man and the gods, but it is too early in the story for that line of thought to be more than crackpot.

A tool for every task - or Contingency Theory as we call it outside of westeros. It is interesting because Jon invokes a parallel with the Lannisters and then later resolves the problem of Thenns (and I suppose the problem of the Karstarks which Robb and Rickard gifted to him in a moment of kindness to add some interest to his life) through marriage, well we have seen exactly this before in the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, so we will be shown the difference in style between Jon and Tywin as political operators, with Tywin succeeding in using a marriage between two hostile parties to set the seal on the victory of one side over the other while Jon manages to use marriage to convince both parties that it is a fair, just and equal solution to both their problems. Which strikes me as quite interesting, we rarely think of Jon as a more effective political operator than Tywin, but perhaps it is worth considering...

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Yes! You will all suffer and burn for your ... what am I worried about again? Have you joined Lummel in letting a good lager distract you from grasping a throne that is ripe for the taking? I'll send you the red bird and book of matches World Domination Starter Kit too. (Batteries and religiously fanatical redhead not included.)

I think I'll join Lummel instead. Keep your red bird, am more of a cat person. And no batteries or fanatical redhead? That's barely an offer :D

The darkness vs. open air angle is a good one especially since "darkness" is what they supposedly didn't choose when taking Mel's offer. There's a bit of a prison theme here too that reflects the theme of that Mance burning chapter you had pointed out. Jon is offering freedom from the prison, freedom to keep their gods, freedom from having to take the vows or kneel. Deliverance from darkness also ties into the Biblical sheep and goats reference. That reference is about final judgment yet what we see here is Jon foregoing judgment (and Marsh engaging in it.) There's a "born again" baptism like offer here to wash away past sins that comes with the delivery from darkness. There's a religious conversion undertone here (at least a Christian one) to this offer that includes foregoing the prior mandatory religious conversion.

Very interesting points. Something to keep in mind when Thormund and the rest of the wildings show up later on since Jon also chooses to forego judgement in that instance and goats and sheep are welcomed to enter the Realm.

The notion of the Ark, is something very notable as well. It really strikes me how many biblical references can be found embedded in Jon's story.

I don't know about the King's Tower. It seems to me that what ever Jon does or does not do in regard to where he sleeps sends a message. There is no neutral option, whatever he chooses can be interpreted one way or another. This time round I'm certainly more open to seeing Jon as wanting Stannis to win which is influencing how I see it, so there is that ;)

...

A tool for every task - or Contingency Theory as we call it outside of westeros. It is interesting because Jon invokes a parallel with the Lannisters and then later resolves the problem of Thenns (and I suppose the problem of the Karstarks which Robb and Rickard gifted to him in a moment of kindness to add some interest to his life) through marriage, well we have seen exactly this before in the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, so we will be shown the difference in style between Jon and Tywin as political operators, with Tywin succeeding in using a marriage between two hostile parties to set the seal on the victory of one side over the other while Jon manages to use marriage to convince both parties that it is a fair, just and equal solution to both their problems. Which strikes me as quite interesting, we rarely think of Jon as a more effective political operator than Tywin, but perhaps it is worth considering...

I am not so much convinced about Jon wanting Stannis to win so much as recognizing that a Stannis victory might come to be beneficial for the Watch. He's not rooting for the man himself rather for what his victory could potentially represent for the NW.

Either way, I still think he is still more concerned about not sending a messgae rather than sending one.

Very interesting observations about Tywin!

@Mirijam, that was a really cool story. Thanks for sharing!

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