Tad Williams announces THE LAST KING OF OSTEN ARD, a sequel to MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN

[Shryke]

I don't want to sound snarky, but i guess you didn't read that book very closely. There is a much wider culture and era spread than western europe and the middle-ages.

I want to sound snarky here, but you clearly didn't understand what I'm saying.

This is literally a world consisting of 4 countries (Germans, Scandinavians, Celts and Italians), some horsie people and smallish settlements of swamp people, trolls and 2 types of elves and that's it. Nothing otherwise in any direction. There is literally no world outside Prestor Jon's kingdom beyond some mythical lands to the East and West that the people came from that there is no contact with. No outside trade. No exploring. No nothing.

It's like, again, Western Europe was the only part of the world that existed.

And yes, it's very very roughly middle ages for how the humans are portrayed.

[Jo498]

What about the southern guy who lives in a culture that feels like southeast asia? And those inuit-hobbits? these may be well-worn tropes, but I had the impression that the distances and cultural differences were larger than in ME, although rather ad hoc.

In the case of ME the mapping to Europe (and then asia to the east/southeast) is clearly intentional. Except for the Gan buri gan people everything fits quite well into corresponding cultures from different stages of Western history.

As I said, I read this in the 90s, but while finding it too long and disliking several characters I tend to agree with the impression that it was overall a rather well plotted and well written "traditional" fantasy epic.

[Jussi]

Williams completes 555 pages of “The Witchwood Crown”

Tad Williams announced today that he has written well over 500 pages of the first draft of The Witchwood Crown, the first volume in his new series, “The Last King of Osten Ard”:

Just to let you all know, I hit a nice little milestone today — 555 pages of the 1st draft, end of Chapter 30. I’ve actually had time again to get into a rhythm, and it’s amazing how much faster it goes when I have dedicated working time and thinking time.

With 30 chapters of the first draft having been written, the manuscript may already be larger than Stone of Farewell, which only contained 28 chapters. In comparison, The Dragonbone Chair had 44 chapters and To Green Angel Tower had 60. This means that the manuscript is approaching or has already exceeded the size of previous Osten Ard books. Williams is known for long, intricate stories, and it looks as though The Witchwood Crown will be no exception.

In other news, it appears as though the publication date of The Witchwood Crown has been pushed back to Spring 2016, to allow time for editing of what is likely to be a massive manuscript. The original publication date had been set to Fall 2015. Williams writes very fast, and there likely will be no long publication delays that have been seen in other massive epic fantasies such as Robert Jordan’s “The Wheel of Time” or George R.R. Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire”. Indeed, The Witchwood Crown was only announced in April of this year.

[Calibandar]

Shit. All of a sudden it's a long way off.

On the other hand I checked that site and cannot find where Olaf gets the info from that it has moved to Spring 2016. Williams himself made no mention of it, or anyone else.

[Maester Llama]

That's too bad about the [potential] delay to 2016. However, if it does happen, I can't say it'll surprise me hugely. What with the need for editing and such, fall of 2015 always struck me as a little tight. I've heard from folks on the interwebs who seem to know about publishing -- not an airtight source, I know -- that Daw's editors have a fairly rigorous approach to editing and prefer to put manuscripts through multiple passes that can take some not inconsiderable time, so I can see this taking a little bit. I'm sure the book will be all the better for the wait and the extra attention, though.

[Jiriki]

The info about the delay of "The Last King of Osten Ard" to 2016 comes from Williams' Facebook page.

I quite agree with Shinrei about anyone complaining about 'shallow worldbuilding' probably didn't read too closely.

This is a world where the main country (Erkynland) consists of the towns of Falshire, Stanshire, Gadrinsett, Bregshame, Garwynswold, Cellodshire, Hewenshire, Runchester, Rodstanby, Naglimund, Erchester, Hasu Vale, St. Hoderund's, Flett, Sistan, Wulfholt, Wentmouth, and several others I'm forgetting.

Naglimund-town is the place of a great castle which had iron nails embedded in it to protect against the fair-folk, as well as a bishopric and a marketplace, stables, as well as an old road called The Stile, which led over the hills to one of the abandoned Sithi cities, Da'ai Chikiza. Naglimund means 'nail-fort', and the castle was built by a Nabbanai-man named Aeswides. It had never fallen in battle. The central keep has a flower-garden.

Erchester is the capital, with a marketplace called Main Row, a central square called Battle Square with scantily-clad dancers, a large cathedral called St Sutrin's, the main castle itself, called the Hayholt, including the Elysia Chapel, which is a major landmark, a nearby hill of ill repute named Thisterborg, apparently sacred to the old fair folk; the Aedonite cemetery and the old pagan cemetery by Thisterborg; a hill on the south side where the great kings are buried; the Kynswood, where only the king may hunt; and Kynslagh Bay, on the south side of the town.

Falshire is one of the larger towns, the seat of Earl Fengbald. There's a Wool District, where wool is sold (it is purposely burned early on in the series); an inn called The Tarbox; quarries and nearby settlements.

Even tiny villages like Flett are fleshed out: Flett has an inn called The Dragon and the Fisherman and a small church, as well as just a few houses. Stanshire is a quarrying town, and ale is brewed there; Hasu Vale is reputed to be haunted, due to its location near an old dolmen; Wentmouth is the location of an old beacon; Meremund has a sea-tower, where the princess spent her youth; Wulfholt is the seat of House Utanyeat; Gadrinsett is a new town founded by homeless peasants.

Similarly, the Celt-like country of Hernystir has the towns of Hernysadharc, Cluias, Cuimnhe, Abaingeat, Crannhyr, Nad Mullach, and Grenefod. Norse-like Rimmersgard has the towns and settlements of Elvritshalla, Naarved, Skoggey, Tungoldyr, Sovebek, Grinsaby, St. Skendi's, Haethstadt, Hullnir, Vestvennby, Kaldskryke, and Saegard. Nabban has the cities and towns of Granis Sacrana, Bacea sa-Repra, the City of Nabban, Teligure, Bellidan, Metessa, and several others. I could go into details about these places, but I don't think it's necessary here.

Outside of the four main countries, people live in the cities and towns of Kwanitupul, High Branch Houses, Yellow Trees, Flower in the Rock, and Village Grove (in the Wran, where much of the action of Books 2 and 3 take place); the islands of Harcha and Naraxi, and Spenit, Drina, Risa, Vinitta, and Perdruin, where the City of Ansis Pelippe is (and where several chapters of Book 2 takes place). People also live in Nascadu, in the desert. East of Erkynland, the peoples of the High Thrithings, Meadow Thrithings, Lake Thrithings and the Hyrkas dwell in wagon caravans. In the north, the Qanuc people live in the mountain villages on Mintahoq, Sikkahoq, Namyet, Yamok, Tutusik, and several other mountains. Both the Thrithings and Yiqanuc are explored in the books.

Far to the west, the land of Ijsgard once was, but it hasn't been seen in centuries. Far to the east, the land of Venhya Do'sae, the Sithi's ancient home, is apparently just as unreachable. Yet despite not appearing in the text, the Sithi's ancient homeland is referred to again and again by the immortals, who are divided into at least four kinds: Sithi, Norns, Niskies and Dwarrows. The conflict between these peoples, which has dragged on for centuries, is a major focus of "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn". As with the human cities, many of the nine cities of the Gardenborn are explored, their histories slowly revealed as the books unfold.

This is the very definition of worldbuilding.

[peterbound]

The info about the delay of "The Last King of Osten Ard" to 2016 comes from Williams' Facebook page.

I quite agree with Shinrei about anyone complaining about 'shallow worldbuilding' probably didn't read too closely.

This is a world where the main country (Erkynland) consists of the towns of Falshire, Stanshire, Gadrinsett, Bregshame, Garwynswold, Cellodshire, Hewenshire, Runchester, Rodstanby, Naglimund, Erchester, Hasu Vale, St. Hoderund's, Flett, Sistan, Wulfholt, Wentmouth, and several others I'm forgetting.

Naglimund-town is the place of a great castle which had iron nails embedded in it to protect against the fair-folk, as well as a bishopric and a marketplace, stables, as well as an old road called The Stile, which led over the hills to one of the abandoned Sithi cities, Da'ai Chikiza. Naglimund means 'nail-fort', and the castle was built by a Nabbanai-man named Aeswides. It had never fallen in battle. The central keep has a flower-garden.

Erchester is the capital, with a marketplace called Main Row, a central square called Battle Square with scantily-clad dancers, a large cathedral called St Sutrin's, the main castle itself, called the Hayholt, including the Elysia Chapel, which is a major landmark, a nearby hill of ill repute named Thisterborg, apparently sacred to the old fair folk; the Aedonite cemetery and the old pagan cemetery by Thisterborg; a hill on the south side where the great kings are buried; the Kynswood, where only the king may hunt; and Kynslagh Bay, on the south side of the town.

Falshire is one of the larger towns, the seat of Earl Fengbald. There's a Wool District, where wool is sold (it is purposely burned early on in the series); an inn called The Tarbox; quarries and nearby settlements.

Even tiny villages like Flett are fleshed out: Flett has an inn called The Dragon and the Fisherman and a small church, as well as just a few houses. Stanshire is a quarrying town, and ale is brewed there; Hasu Vale is reputed to be haunted, due to its location near an old dolmen; Wentmouth is the location of an old beacon; Meremund has a sea-tower, where the princess spent her youth; Wulfholt is the seat of House Utanyeat; Gadrinsett is a new town founded by homeless peasants.

Similarly, the Celt-like country of Hernystir has the towns of Hernysadharc, Cluias, Cuimnhe, Abaingeat, Crannhyr, Nad Mullach, and Grenefod. Norse-like Rimmersgard has the towns and settlements of Elvritshalla, Naarved, Skoggey, Tungoldyr, Sovebek, Grinsaby, St. Skendi's, Haethstadt, Hullnir, Vestvennby, Kaldskryke, and Saegard. Nabban has the cities and towns of Granis Sacrana, Bacea sa-Repra, the City of Nabban, Teligure, Bellidan, Metessa, and several others. I could go into details about these places, but I don't think it's necessary here.

Outside of the four main countries, people live in the cities and towns of Kwanitupul, High Branch Houses, Yellow Trees, Flower in the Rock, and Village Grove (in the Wran, where much of the action of Books 2 and 3 take place); the islands of Harcha and Naraxi, and Spenit, Drina, Risa, Vinitta, and Perdruin, where the City of Ansis Pelippe is (and where several chapters of Book 2 takes place). People also live in Nascadu, in the desert. East of Erkynland, the peoples of the High Thrithings, Meadow Thrithings, Lake Thrithings and the Hyrkas dwell in wagon caravans. In the north, the Qanuc people live in the mountain villages on Mintahoq, Sikkahoq, Namyet, Yamok, Tutusik, and several other mountains. Both the Thrithings and Yiqanuc are explored in the books.

Far to the west, the land of Ijsgard once was, but it hasn't been seen in centuries. Far to the east, the land of Venhya Do'sae, the Sithi's ancient home, is apparently just as unreachable. Yet despite not appearing in the text, the Sithi's ancient homeland is referred to again and again by the immortals, who are divided into at least four kinds: Sithi, Norns, Niskies and Dwarrows. The conflict between these peoples, which has dragged on for centuries, is a major focus of "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn". As with the human cities, many of the nine cities of the Gardenborn are explored, their histories slowly revealed as the books unfold.

This is the very definition of worldbuilding.

Actually, I think that's more of the definition of: 'A mile wide, and an inch deep'.

[Shryke]

It also utterly misses the point and doesn't touch on anything I said.

Like, the right-hand of the kind is lord of a small town.

[Jiriki]

It also utterly misses the point and doesn't touch on anything I said.

Sorry, I thought you said "This is literally a world consisting of 4 countries (Germans, Scandinavians, Celts and Italians), some horsie people and smallish settlements of swamp people, trolls and 2 types of elves and that's it. Nothing otherwise in any direction." I think my post did touch on that.

Like, the right-hand of the kind is lord of a small town.

Why is that a problem, considering the hand of the king in AGOT is the lord of Winterfell, which doesn't seem to even have a town?

[Shryke]

Sorry, I thought you said "This is literally a world consisting of 4 countries (Germans, Scandinavians, Celts and Italians), some horsie people and smallish settlements of swamp people, trolls and 2 types of elves and that's it. Nothing otherwise in any direction." I think my post did touch on that.

No, it didn't. I don't know why you think it did honestly.

Like, you just listed off a few features of a few of the tiny number of settlements in Osten Ard. That doens't actually address anything I said.

Why is that a problem, considering the hand of the king in AGOT is the lord of Winterfell, which doesn't seem to even have a town?

Winterfell is a major fortification controlling a huge swath of territory.

Osten Ard is like the Seven Kingdoms consists of just the area around King's Landing and the Stormlands and literally nothing else anywhere.

[Jussi]

http://www.tadwilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=857895#p857895

2015 was my hopeful wish, which horrified my publishers, who said "We won't possibly have time to promote it properly". In retrospect, it was a bit too hopeful, because the re-learning curve is so steep on these books. But I'm shooting to have the first book finished in a few months (first draft) and then I can start editing and we can start releasing excerpts, etc.

[Jussi]

http://www.tadwilliams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=861723#p861723

Politics will definitely show up in these books.

Nabban is a major focus.

I've just crested 700 pages after a REALLY difficult last few weeks.

[AncalagonTheBlack]

Tad Williams completes first draft of “The Witchwood Crown”
http://ostenard.com/2015/02/04/tad-williams-completes-first-draft-of-the-witchwood-crown-new-osten-ard-book/

[Fylimar]

I just stumbled upon that thread and I'm so excited. I love the work of Tad WIlliams, especially the Osten Ard novels and I can't wait to read more. ANd since GRRM keeps us waiting for the next book, that's a very good consolation for me

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

I may very well give this a go given its one of those fantasy series I haven't read in a very long time but greatly enjoyed and thought was richly developed. I agree on bloat issues, but those were worse I think with Otherland (which I nonetheless thought good too). I admittedly was less than impressed with Shadowmarch, which I never got past the first book of, so I am a little wary. Still, will keep an eye open for The Witchwood Crown sometime next year.

[Jussi]

http://ostenard.com/2015/02/28/an-interview-with-tad-williams-part-1/

OA.com: In The Dragonbone Chair, you built a massive world with more than 100 cities, towns and villages spread out over a continent. Then you created languages, cultures, and peoples to fill those places. As you added more books, Osten Ard grew further. Are you planning to do any exploring of areas outside the old maps? The “blank areas at the edges of the maps”? If so, how will that mesh with the existing infrastructure and the old maps?

Tad: There will definitely be some expansion of what we know about O. Ard., but I’ve got plenty of stuff from the originals to elucidate and expand upon without going beyond the Nascadu desert or the northern Trollfells or Nornfells. However, we will learn a bit more about the -conceptual- map of the world, and also see some places we never saw in the first books, that’s for sure.

OA.com: During the events of MS&T, readers got to explore the realm, visiting everything from steaming jungles to frozen tundra (LOTS of frozen tundra!). Any plans to revisit areas of Osten Ard which didn’t get much attention in the classic series? Nascadu? The Hyrkalands? The Westerling Islands? Harcha and Naraxi? Ijsgard? The Lost Garden?

Tad: We’re going to see a LOT of the Nornfells and Nakkiga. We’re also going to see a lot of Aldheorte and the Thrithings and Nabban. As far as other, previously unvisited places, I’m not sure — that will depend on where the second volume and the beginning of the third takes some characters whose steps I haven’t completely mapped yet. (By the way, the amusingly stupid spellchecker on this email keeps trying to change “the Thrithings” to “the Thrashings”.) And we will learn and hear more about the Lost Garden as well — a LOT about the early history of the Norns and Sithi, both in Osten Ard and before. So while I can’t say we’re going to visit the Lost Garden — it is lost, after all — we’re definitely going to learn and hear more about it.

[OlafK]

Part Two of the interview is up now:

http://ostenard.com/2015/03/02/an-interview-with-tad-williams-part-2/

How difficult is it to “collaborate with yourself”, as it were, in writing a sequel to a story you wrapped up over twenty years ago? Are you trying to match the style and mood of the original, or are you just trusting yourself that it will come out right? Do you find yourself remembering any of the feelings or thoughts you had when writing MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN, even things you’d forgotten until now?

[Arataniello]

I hope that TW clarifies the family tree of the Norns and Sidhi royal house. I have a scrap of handwrittem scribbles from when M,S and T came out, trying to tie in the legendary figures with Jiriki's parents.

There are question marks, which vexed me at the time.

[Jiriki]

I hope that TW clarifies the family tree of the Norns and Sidhi royal house. I have a scrap of handwrittem scribbles from when M,S and T came out, trying to tie in the legendary figures with Jiriki's parents.

There are question marks, which vexed me at the time.

I know what you mean, Arataniello. I did the same thing. Here's the Sa'onserei/Seyt-Hamakha family tree:

http://ostenard.com/2014/06/20/the-saonserei-family-tree/

[Arataniello]

Jiriki - precisely.

The relationship of Shiriki and Senditu to the generation before is unclear (ISTR) - not sure which of them is the child of Drukhi and Nenaisu.

And Briseyu is described in different places as the wife of Hakatri (and thus mother of Shima'onari) and the mother of Likimeya, who is the WIFE of Shima'onari.

Thanks for posting that link. I can chuck my handwritten scribble now.