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Arryn connections


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106 replies to this topic

#1 Hippocras

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:38 AM

Ned Stark fostered with Jon Arryn. We also know that Ned's great aunt married a Royce of the Moon Gate, recently made a hereditary holding by LF. Her children married a Waynwood, a Corbray, and possibly a Templeton. Of that set, only the Templetons seem to have not been directly courted or "bought" by Littlefinger for their support of his claim to the title Warden of the East. These actions seem to be about preparing a base of support in the Vale for a move on the North in Sansa's name, specifically cosying up to families with ties to the Starks.

However I am also curious about any Tully connections to the Vale, beyond Lysa. Is there any possibility that Sansa has an Arryn ancestor who might make her an heir to the Vale in her own right? Did Jasper Arryn have a sister who married Hoster's or Minisa's mother? If so, it would give a huge new level of insight into what LF is up to, and why he has had a long term obsession with marrying a Tully.

Edited by Hippocras, 04 April 2014 - 02:39 AM.


#2 Leonardo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:53 AM

I think the ties are mostly leave overs from Jon Arryn; Jon Arryn basically binded the three nations together, and like Ned in the North, leaves a huge impression on the Vale when he dies that we don't really get to see as much.

 

Also some houses in both the Riverlands and Vale hold to the old gods (House Redfort, who has been mentioned casually and are set up a bit to be important players in the Vale alliance; Michel Redfort is claimed to be one of the finest swords in the Vale, and there are two other mentions I forgot)

 

I think the plan is to get people behind Sansa from all 3 of the big 'northern' regions. Some of the Riverlanders will support her due to her Tully blood and First men ties along with aggro from war, and then there are First Men in the Vale with aggro from war and First Men ties. It's not going to be hard to find support, the question is just what is going to be done with it when it does happens

 

Trailed off a bit there, but yeah Ned being fostered in the Eyrie was a big one. Some of the current lords would have known and had opinions of both him and Robert, along with their liege.



#3 Hippocras

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:03 AM

But I am really curious if Sansa has any actual claim, herself, to the Vale if both Robert and Harry die. To me that is important.

If we assume Littlefinger's plan might be to marry Sansa himself, would she, by then, have her OWN claim to all three regions?

Because if not, his authority in the Vale is gone if Robert dies and Harry the heir is in charge. At best he would simply be an advisor to Sansa and Harry.


We already know that if Bran and Rickon were actually dead Sansa would already be lady of Winterfell.

Then if Edmure and baby were to encounter some mishap on the road to Casterly Rock, she would also be Tully heir to the Riverlands.

So what of the Vale. Does she have her own claim there too?

Edited by Hippocras, 04 April 2014 - 03:06 AM.


#4 Leonardo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:08 AM

Nah she has no claim, not before loooots of other Vale lords would, like the Arryns of Gulltown.

 

I suppose they could fabricate a claim, or just take it. If Harry's/Robin's death looks like an accident they will still likely support the grieving widow for vengeance, who is 'pregnant' with his child, aka LF's golden babe.

 

That's the only way I see the Vale supporting her without Harrold or their own Lord, and it would be a great snarky move for LF to pull and not require a ton of forethought, just working with chaos which LF likes.



#5 Hippocras

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:13 AM

For me that seems weak. Her having an Arryn ancestor would be a stronger guarantee

But if Martin had told us this long ago, then people would have known what LF was up to much too soon. So it may well come up now that Martin is ready to reveal more on LF's plot.

Of one thing I am quite certain: He never loved Catelyn. There is nothing loving about his actions. His "love" is just words. A cover story for raw ambition.

Edited by Hippocras, 04 April 2014 - 03:17 AM.


#6 Leonardo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:17 AM

For me that seems weak. Her having an Arryn ancestor would be a stronger guarantee

 

Eh, if they believe she's pregnant with Harry's child I wouldn't think it very weak at all lol...

 

She def doesn't have an Arryn ancestor that is anywhere close enough to give her a shortcut in the line for Lord of the Vale.



#7 The Weirwoods Eyes

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:21 AM

No no Arryn connection beyond being SR's cousin. But as thats through his mother not Jon its irrelevant inheritance wise. 



#8 Hippocras

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:25 AM

No no Arryn connection beyond being SR's cousin. But as thats through his mother not Jon its irrelevant inheritance wise.

That we know of so far.

Let's consider the possibility, ok?

If Sansa is heir in her own right, then if Harry died, she would have power in the Vale AND be free to marry someone else.

Let's consider also that LF may still be playing the game with the Tyrells and/or Cersei. If Sansa is both in power in the Vale and free to marry again, the next move could be to marry her to Willas if he is with the Tyrells, or Tommen if Margery is convicted and he is working with Cersei, arranging yet another power grab that way.

Edited by Hippocras, 04 April 2014 - 04:36 AM.


#9 Leonardo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:43 AM

>.>

 

Sansa has absolutely zero chance of inheriting the seat of the Arryns. If the Arryns did marry into the Starks at one point, the claim is sooooo far back, or it would just be easier to fabricate one if possible. Who is going to be intelligent enough or have the records to disprove you lol, just a bunch of maesters at the Citadel.

 

Sansa is heir to Winterfell and has a good claim to the Riverlands. That is enough lol

 

Like I said, the only way, and ONLY way, for Sansa to have any kind of claim or right to rule is to have Harry's 'son' inside her, whether really his or not. Other than that he is going to rule, and Sansa will have to learn to manipulate him or be intimidating enough in her own right, which is still a long way away.

 

Long story short, absolutely no claim on the Vale without 15-20 people all scattered throughout the Vale all dying.



#10 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:47 AM

Sansa having a relatively recent Arryn ancestor seems very unlikely and even if she did, I wouldn't be surprised if there are people with a stronger claim from their bannermen in the Vale.


Edited by Lee-Sensei, 04 April 2014 - 04:48 AM.


#11 The Weirwoods Eyes

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:47 AM

That we know of so far.

Let's consider the possibility, ok?

If Sansa is heir in her own right, then if Harry died, she would have power in the Vale AND be free to marry someone else.

Let's consider also that LF may still be playing the game with the Tyrells and/or Cersei. If Sansa is both in power in the Vale and free to marry again, the next move could be to marry her to Willas if he is with the Tyrells, or Tommen if Margery is convicted and he is working with Cersei, arranging yet another power grab that way.

 

 

No, lets not.



#12 Hippocras

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:53 AM

No, lets not.


Why not? It is not like WoW is out and we have that to discuss. Speculation is interesting as long as it is not treated as fact.

Edited by Hippocras, 05 April 2014 - 03:54 AM.


#13 The Weirwoods Eyes

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:15 AM

In my view, speculation needs to have at least something in the text to go off of. We have exactly zero text that could be interpreted that the Starks have a blood relationship with the Arryns. 

 

So in my view its a dead end. If you can come up with text which can plausibly be interpreted as a clue that there is a blood relationship there I'll discuss it. 

 

Not to mention that While I could see the Tyrells going for a Willas match, Cersei would rather see the Kingdom burn that wed Sansa to Tommen. No matter what LF tried to convince her she could get out of it. Cersei has convinced herself that Sansa was partly responsible for Joffrey's murder and has placed her firmly as the wicked betrayer to her benevolent foster mother.

 

Cersi is the sort to believe her own lies too, Unlike the Stark girls who use method acting to protect the lies which protect their selves, Cersei lies to herself and believes her lies to be true.  In her mind Sansa is a murderer. 

 

And yea No text to even hint the Arryn may have stark blood in them or the Starks Arryn blood. At least non recently enough to make a claim. 



#14 Hippocras

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:27 AM

In my view, speculation needs to have at least something in the text to go off of. We have exactly zero text that could be interpreted that the Starks have a blood relationship with the Arryns. 
 
So in my view its a dead end. If you can come up with text which can plausibly be interpreted as a clue that there is a blood relationship there I'll discuss it. 
 
Not to mention that While I could see the Tyrells going for a Willas match, Cersei would rather see the Kingdom burn that wed Sansa to Tommen. No matter what LF tried to convince her she could get out of it. Cersei has convinced herself that Sansa was partly responsible for Joffrey's murder and has placed her firmly as the wicked betrayer to her benevolent foster mother.
 
Cersi is the sort to believe her own lies too, Unlike the Stark girls who use method acting to protect the lies which protect their selves, Cersei lies to herself and believes her lies to be true.  In her mind Sansa is a murderer. 
 
And yea No text to even hint the Arryn may have stark blood in them or the Starks Arryn blood. At least non recently enough to make a claim.

I disagree that we have nothing.

We have a man who shows clear sociopathic tendencies. He claimed for years to love Catelyn Tully and then also pretended to love Lysa as a backup plan, and yet who shows no sign at any point of feeling any love for anyone, and towards Catelyn and Lysa his behavior is the opposite of loving.

So it is perfectly legit to consider other reasons he wanted Catelyn, then when that failed, Lysa.

You could argue it is just that he wanted the Riverlands, however he is from a minor house of the Vale, not the Riverlands, and seems to know, in extraordinary detail, the line of inherritance of the Arryns. A line from which people have been conveniently disappearing, one after one, for a very long time during LF's lifetime.

Edited by Hippocras, 05 April 2014 - 04:31 AM.


#15 thelittledragonthatcould

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:32 AM

Why not? It is not like WoW is out and we have that to discuss. Speculation is interesting as long as it is not treated as fact.

 

But it's fan fiction with no evidence in the texts. There is no discussion as someone's fantasy cannot be proven one way or the other. I could say lets discuss that there the Lanisters have a 100 secret dragons at Casterly Rock.



#16 Lee-Sensei

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:32 AM

There really isn't anything to go on that says that the Starks have Arryn blood in them and if they do, it's not recently. If anything I'd thing that one of House Arryn's bannermen would be further up in the line of succession than Sansa if she has Arryn blood in her.



#17 thelittledragonthatcould

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:34 AM

I disagree that we have nothing.

We have a man who shows clear sociopathic tendencies. He claimed for years to love Catelyn Tully and then also pretended to love Lysa as a backup plan, and yet who shows no sign at any point of feeling any love for anyone, and towards Catelyn and Lysa his behavior is the opposite of loving.

So it is perfectly legit to consider other reasons he wanted Catelyn, then when that failed, Lysa.

 

 

er, this has been perfectly covered in the text. He grew up with Cat and was in love with her. Nothing to do with inheriting the Eyrie, which at that pint in time she would of been very far down the pecking order.

 

Lyssa and Sansa are consolation prizes


Edited by thelittledragonthatcould, 05 April 2014 - 04:35 AM.


#18 Hippocras

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:36 AM

There really isn't anything to go on that says that the Starks have Arryn blood in them and if they do, it's not recently. If anything I'd thing that one of House Arryn's bannermen would be further up in the line of succession than Sansa if she has Arryn blood in her.


We don't know who Hoster's mom was. We don't know who Minisa's mom was. And we don't know if Jasper has a sister.

But if he did, it is actually quite likely she would have married a Tully or a Whent to secure neighbouring alliances.

#19 Hippocras

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:38 AM

er, this has been perfectly covered in the text. He grew up with Cat and was in love with her. Nothing to do with inheriting the Eyrie, which at that pint in time she would of been very far down the pecking order.
 
Lyssa and Sansa are consolation prizes

Um no. He SAYS he loved her.

Then when he didn't get her he immediately went for the sister instead, and this after holding a long term flirtation with both sisters, practicing kissing etc.

When he arrived in KL he went around slut shaming her. That's not love.

Then he deliberately destroyed her family. That's not love.

He was ALWAYS playing a game of ambition with the sisters and love had nothing to do with it.

Edited by Hippocras, 05 April 2014 - 04:40 AM.


#20 Lord Joker Of FunLand

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 04:47 AM

Um no. He SAYS he loved her.

Then when he didn't get her he immediately went for the sister instead, and this after holding a long term flirtation with both sisters, practicing kissing etc.

When he arrived in KL he went around slut shaming her. That's not love.

Then he deliberately destroyed her family. That's not love.

He was ALWAYS playing a game of ambition with the sisters and love had nothing to do with it.

Actually those things sound like a spurned lover, someone who got rejected by someone they loved...and is crazy. 

 

I also believe it really was love.