Mad Men Season 7: Once a hobo, always a hobo (Spoilers) (Now including part 2)

[Rockroi]

That's because How I Met Your Mother is a more popular show and therefore more people would have more to say.

Also, the finale would generate more "omph" mostly because its the show's final thoughts on itself and the last thing anyone will have to say.

We still have 7 episodes left. Its lame the way they did it, but why start writing the eulogy when the guy you are talking about is still alive?

[Rhom]

That's because How I Met Your Mother is a more popular show and therefore more people would have more to say.

Also, the finale would generate more "omph" mostly because its the show's final thoughts on itself and the last thing anyone will have to say.

We still have 7 episodes left. Its lame the way they did it, but why start writing the eulogy when the guy you are talking about is still alive?

All valid points, but would you not agree that this fantastic piece of cable television that serves as a halfway point to the grand finale generated less discussion than lesser episodes from this half season?

It was great TV, the interest should be heightened for the conclusion of the season... And my money says that if we had a new episode today, there would be a lot of excitement. Instead, it just feels flat and I don't see how the public at large can be expected to "get up" for the last run of a paltry seven episodes a full year from now to the extent that they would have without the ill advised gap.

[Rhom]

Edit: Nine months later I realize I must have double posted. :lol:

[Rhom]

Trailer is up for Season Seven Part 2.

Not a lot of meat there, but there are definitely some bitchin' sideburns. Even Roger is rocking them well. :lol: Pete continues to look ridiculous as well.

I guess we're really here on the cusp of the end. Consider me extra sad and yet excited to see where this journey ends. :(

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Splitting the last season up has really killed some of my enthusiasm. I'm sure I'll feel differently when I'm two episodes in to the last seven, but right now... meh.

[Rhom]

Splitting the last season up has really killed some of my enthusiasm. I'm sure I'll feel differently when I'm two episodes in to the last seven, but right now... meh.

I'd say that's accurate. As the discussion left off with Rock, I was lamenting the same thing back then apparently.

I don't like this trend of "splitting a season." Lets be honest, you didn't split it... you have two really short seasons.

[RumHam]

Splitting the last season up has really killed some of my enthusiasm. I'm sure I'll feel differently when I'm two episodes in to the last seven, but right now... meh.

Yeah I'm gonna hafta rewatch at least the last couple seasons before the final one starts.

I'd say that's accurate. As the discussion left off with Rock, I was lamenting the same thing back then apparently.

I don't like this trend of "splitting a season." Lets be honest, you didn't split it... you have two really short seasons.

agreed, it's terrible. Just a way for AMC and HBO to manipulate contracts and not have to give everyone raises.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Trailer is up for Season Seven Part 2.

Not a lot of meat there, but there are definitely some bitchin' sideburns. Even Roger is rocking them well. :lol: Pete continues to look ridiculous as well.

I guess we're really here on the cusp of the end. Consider me extra sad and yet excited to see where this journey ends. :(

Well it's been looming on the horizon since the show started; we've all known too well that unfortunate truth:

The seventies followed the sixties.

[Ken Stone]

Well it's been looming on the horizon since the show started; we've all known too well that unfortunate truth:

The seventies followed the sixties.

Hey no spoilers man!

:p

[Ken Stone]

On a more serious note, does any show have trailers as useless as Mad Men? I don't know why any one bothers to watch them. It's a bunch of random, out of context, 2 second clips.

[Spring Bass]

Yep, they're hilariously misleading. I used to go back and watch them after seeing the episode for laughs.

Also . . . more Megan? I thought that relationship was finally over in all but legal writing. Not that I'm sad to see Megan again.

[Maithanet]

Necroing this thread since Season 7 came to Netflix this past week and now I'm caught up (for a few weeks anyway).

I loved season 7, thought it was consistently very high quality Mad Man. Looking forward to the final eps.

BUT, I am really surprised that the reaction on the board was overwhelmingly positive to the final Bert Dance Number. I thought it was really really cringeworthy, and completely out of place in the show. The entire time I was just wondering "WTF were they thinking with this?" Are we supposed to assume that Don has suddenly gone completely insane? Or that we'll just forget this because it's cute? Anyways, I hated it, which is a real shame, because otherwise the season was great, particularly the last two episodes.

[Rockroi]

I am really surprised that the reaction on the board was overwhelmingly positive to the final Bert Dance Number. I thought it was really really cringeworthy, and completely out of place in the show. The entire time I was just wondering "WTF were they thinking with this?" Are we supposed to assume that Don has suddenly gone completely insane? Or that we'll just forget this because it's cute? Anyways, I hated it, which is a real shame, because otherwise the season was great, particularly the last two episodes.

I can definitely see how Bert's last scene can be seen as shtick; cringeworthy and sappy. And Robert Morse's descriptions of the scene after - how Weiner approached the actor and said that he always wanted to get a musical number from him- doesn't help, making the final action seem like Weiner was saying "I always wanted to try this" and not thinking about the story. .

That said, I think the message of the piece, mixed with the moment was actually inspired storytelling. Here is my defense of the scene:

First, I did not find Don's "vision" completely out of place. Mad Men does not rely heavily on "visions," but they have been a part of virtually every season:

-Don had that "false ending" to season one; he comes home just in time to catch Betty and the kids before they leave for a trip. We see the kids' excitement, Betty's love etc... only it didn't happen; Don comes home to an empty house AFTER they have left and we know that all we have now is Don's imagination of how he WANTED to be home etc.

-Season Two expand's the vision narrative; Don has several scenes that juxtapose his adulthood with his dramatically dysfunctional childhood, including a fall down the stairs and his actual birth. Betty has an out-of-body experience during child birth.

-In Season Three, IIRC, Betty has a vision of her dead mother and then a vision at season's end with her newly-dead father.

-In a more recent season, after marrying Meagan, Don has an explicitly vivid vision of hooking up with and then murdering a woman neighbor, going so far to stash her dead body under his bead.

-In I believe the Sixth season, Rodger has a literal psychedelic experience while tripping on Acid. Later in the Sixth season, while in California, Don has a powerful experience while high on hashish wherein he meets up with Meagan, she says she is pregnant, they make out and then, Don sees a vision of himself face-down in the pool (turns out, Don made it all the way in).

In this context, the show has some street-cred in using out-of-body story-telling. They have done it before and may do it again.

Now, with that as a back drop, I thought the scene worked for several reasons which I illustrated in one of my earlier comments: the most important relationship in the show is Don's relationship to Peggy. What started out as a clear superior-inferior relationship wherein the young and inexperienced Peggy worshiped the established and powerful Don, that dynamic has swung around several times: with Don actually revering Peggy when they were competitors (most notably on Heinze), then their mutual animosity, to begrudging respect, then to this strange place where Don, a partner, was somehow inferior to Peggy and answered to her.

But I always thought the most powerful and poignant episode between the two was in "The Suitcase" wherein Peggy demands respect for her work on the floor-wax add and when she doesn't get it Don screams at her "That's what the money's for!" (one of my favorite lines in the show).

(BTW: if you are still reading, I applaud your optimism)

See, Don's fixation with money is such an incredible part of the character. It fits: while most of the other characters on the show were either born rich (Bert, Rodger and Pete) or deeply ensconced in the Middle Class (Peggy and Joan), Don is one of the only characters who- at least for a time in his life- lived in poverty. To Don, money means a WHOLE FUCK TON! He appreciates money- he even stashes stacks of it in his home office, waiting to pay off his younger brother. When problems strike, his plans are always padded with how much money it will cost him. And if he needs to run? How much money it will take to get him where he's going. When Lane - in one of the most poorly written sub-plots in the show's otherwise stellar run- steals money from the company, its an unpardonable sin for Don.... literally. When Betty and later Meagan leave him, his most profound way to express his loyalty to them is to say that he will always be there to give them money. When he messes up with Alison, he drops two $50's in a card... because to Don, that is being generous, regardless of the fact that it looks painfully like leaving money on a dresser.

And so to Don- when Peggy exclaims that she needs respect and recognition from Don, Don's snap is not as much of an insult as one would think: to Don, the money REALLY IS for recognition and respect. To Don, that IS what the money is for.

And so when Bert Cooper's Shade serenades Don that "The Moon Belongs to Everyone... the Best Things in Life Are Free." its a deeply moving moment.

Because Don had- by then- learned that lesson. He did, after all, warn Joan NOT to sell her body to Herb to get a partnership; he DID want Peggy to have Burger Chef; he did respect her vision and authority; he knew she should make the presentation... and he knew Ted should go to California instead of him.

So when his daughter says to him- a few moments before- that going to the Moon was a waste of money (parroting a dumb thing a dummy said moments before), Don honestly responds, "You can't really mean that?" BEcause he certainly doesn't think that.

... so ... let me quote my favorite authority ... me:

Don once deprived Peggy of credit for a TV ad, and in her anger and his rage he said "That's what the money's for!" But no... money can't buy respect. And so when Bert Cooper's Shade serenades Don with "The Best Things in Life Are Free" what he's really sayings is that its not all about the money; the moon belongs to everyone. And so does earned respect. Don learned that lesson on his own without having to listen to Bert's Ghost... but it sure as hell didn't hurt.

Man landed on the Moon and that was not free. But the feeling it inspired? Even in 1969: a year that epitomized the true divide between Nixon's America (Don's America) and the hippie's? That everyone- together- could feel true wonder, awe and kinship over the Moon while still wallowing in racial inequality, a gender divide, and Vietnam? To this day, whenever somebody says "Why can't we do X... We can ... .put a man on the Moon, but we can't do X!!!" To this day, the Moon landing does, in many ways, define the high-water mark of Don-Draper's America.

And Watergate would be the low one.

The episode was called, after all, Waterloo.

I think that ending spoke on all those levels and a few I am missing. Don listening to a shoe-less dead man tell him what he had finally learned: that money can't buy you those things that are most important to you: friends, family, walking shoeless through the office, ice cream (he had an affection for it with his sister in season 1 or 2), and landing on the Moon.

[Maithanet]

Interesting, I was not expecting such a thorough response :smoking:

Many of those "out of body" examples I either don't remember or disliked as well. Don murdering his neighbor was super weird for this show. The only ones that I think really worked was the season 1 reveal (which I attributed simply to Don's imagining what he wished would happen when he got home), and the drug ones, where seeing visions is prettymuch par for the course.

I'm fine with what you're saying about the role of money on the show, although this particularly number strikes me as a really hamfisted way to do it. Couldn't we just have that song playing on the radio or something? If we wanted to give Bert a little dance number, do it at a company party, it's not like it would be that out of the ordinary.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

imo, the titular Waterloo is Don's (like Napoleon, Don returns from exile). The final episode seems like a triumph, when in fact Don has given away, by selling to McCann to keep his job and place in the agency, his freedom. He's locked in for 5 years, and, in all likelihood if only because there must be meddling from McCann and thus conflict in the final run of episodes, he'll find he doesn't have control over his agency or creative direction. This is exactly what Don has been avoiding for 7 seasons. Bert's imagined song and dance is Don realizing what he's done- the best things in life are free, but he no longer is. If you catch his expression at the end, it's almost flushed and sickened, and he leans back on a desk like he's been overcome.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

See, Don's fixation with money is such an incredible part of the character. It fits: while most of the other characters on the show were either born rich (Bert, Rodger and Pete) or deeply ensconced in the Middle Class (Peggy and Joan), Don is one of the only characters who- at least for a time in his life- lived in poverty. To Don, money means a WHOLE FUCK TON! He appreciates money- he even stashes stacks of it in his home office, waiting to pay off his younger brother. When problems strike, his plans are always padded with how much money it will cost him. And if he needs to run? How much money it will take to get him where he's going. When Lane - in one of the most poorly written sub-plots in the show's otherwise stellar run- steals money from the company, its an unpardonable sin for Don.... literally. When Betty and later Meagan leave him, his most profound way to express his loyalty to them is to say that he will always be there to give them money. When he messes up with Alison, he drops two $50's in a card... because to Don, that is being generous, regardless of the fact that it looks painfully like leaving money on a dresser.

And so to Don- when Peggy exclaims that she needs respect and recognition from Don, Don's snap is not as much of an insult as one would think: to Don, the money REALLY IS for recognition and respect. To Don, that IS what the money is for.

And so when Bert Cooper's Shade serenades Don that "The Moon Belongs to Everyone... the Best Things in Life Are Free." its a deeply moving moment.

Because Don had- by then- learned that lesson. He did, after all, warn Joan NOT to sell her body to Herb to get a partnership; he DID want Peggy to have Burger Chef; he did respect her vision and authority; he knew she should make the presentation... and he knew Ted should go to California instead of him.

I really don't think that there is any textual evidence in the show that Don Draper is fixated with money. In fact, just the opposite - I think there's a lot of evidence that Don's relationship with money is careless and instrumental at best - a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Several times during the show, Don has undertaken courses of action, or proposes courses of action, that had the potential to destroy him financially.

In season 1, for example, his proposal to run away with Rachel Menken - abandoning both his family and his job - just to get away from his problems.

Or how about Don's lengthy hiatus in California with Anna Draper? I believe it's explicitly mentioned that Don never sought leave from his job and basically disappeared for a number of weeks, and had no idea what the response would be when he got back. He basically gambled his entire career on his emotional breakdown.

The fact that Don throws money at people to try to solve his problems does not mean that Don is fixated on money. It means that Don has a problem understanding and relating to people on their own terms.

Don has also taken several professional stances that were clearly not motivated primarily by financial gain. His philosophy over Mohawk Airlines, for example, was all about loyalty to the client. Don also didn't want that wealthy client pushing jai alai because he knew it would never sell in the US.

Here's the back-and-forth between Roger and Don re: whether to ditch Mohawk Airlines and make a play for American:

Don Draper: We *have* an airline. What kind of company are we going to be?

Roger Sterling: The kind where everyone has a summer house?

Roger's in it for the money (even though he was born into it). Don thinks integrity is worth more.

It's true that Don had a poor upbringing, but the effect on his personality seems to be more "easy come, easy go." In fact, I think this extended Draper quote sums up his personality best, especially during the earlier seasons:

Don Draper: The reason you haven't felt it is because it doesn't exist. What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons. You're born alone and you die alone and this world just drops a bunch of rules on top of you to make you forget those facts. But I never forget. I'm living like there's no tomorrow, because there isn't one.

[Rockroi]

Many of those "out of body" examples I either don't remember or disliked as well.

I agree; I can’t say that I liked many of the out-of-body experiences the show gave us; and unlike you I really didn’t enjoy the drug vision etc because, to me, it makes story-writing trivial easy because it neuters the ability to jibe everything with reality; reality becomes obscure and intangible… and to me that is antithetical to the show itself.

But the ones that I did usually enjoy were the ones attached to experiencing the depth of the characters. Take for example in Season 6 where Peggy interposes Don where Ted is; she sees Don and hears his voice emanating from the object of her desire, Ted. This leads to one conclusion that Peggy still has some “feelings” for Don and has transposed them onto Ted.

Or in the example of Betty unburdening herself to her dead father or in Don coming home to his family in his mind then coming home to an empty house in reality. Unlike the drug scenes or the murders etc, these scenes help capture the inner struggles and dialog of these actual people, making them more real. Which is ironic because they seem to become the most real when they are seeing things that surely are not.

imo, the titular Waterloo is Don's (like Napoleon, Don returns from exile). The final episode seems like a triumph, when in fact Don has given away, by selling to McCann to keep his job and place in the agency, his freedom. He's locked in for 5 years, and, in all likelihood if only because there must be meddling from McCann and thus conflict in the final run of episodes, he'll find he doesn't have control over his agency or creative direction. This is exactly what Don has been avoiding for 7 seasons. Bert's imagined song and dance is Don realizing what he's done- the best things in life are free, but he no longer is. If you catch his expression at the end, it's almost flushed and sickened, and he leans back on a desk like he's been overcome.

That is another way to look at it; that Don’s return in triumph is actually his undoing. At the same time, if that is Don’s ultimate realization- that he is now trapped while Bert is happily free- then I have mixed feelings about that. On the plus-side, it shows an incredible depth in Bert’s complete character; it shows Don’s self-awareness and his struggle to be free. On the down side- its, once again, unbelievably selfish of Don to look at Bert’s death and how it impacts him; that Bert would somehow be a vision to Don in the after-life telling him, “You are screwed, Don.”

To me, Don’s lapse into being sickened and overcome on the desk is not a sign of “Fuck, I am trapped,” but true grief for losing somebody he actually cared about. The look in Don’s eyes- which are soft, red and teary- is that of joy mixed with unbelievable sadness. If, instead, Don is overcome with feelings about himself instead of Bert, then that is unbelievably selfish, and not an emotion worthy of that final scene.

I really don't think that there is any textual evidence in the show that Don Draper is fixated with money. In fact, just the opposite - I think there's a lot of evidence that Don's relationship with money is careless and instrumental at best - a means to an end rather than an end in itself. Several times during the show, Don has undertaken courses of action, or proposes courses of action, that had the potential to destroy him financially.

I respectfully disagree. While I am not saying Don wants money for the sake of Money, money is Don’s vehicle to what he thinks is ultimate happiness. To Don, the ability to buy a car, a house; to get out of a drunk-driving accident; to pay off the secretary; to make his problems “go away” is freedom at its apex. I did state a variety of examples that I think do show pertinent evidence of Don's desire to have plenty of money.

While you are correct that his attempt to run off with Rachel Menken and how absurd that seems show Don's character; its far more realistic when Don knows he has the money to do it. When Rachael says to Don, “What about your family?” Don is unhinged, but not undone; he immediately says what he thinks is the right answer- that he will always provide for them… with money… because money is important. And recall, Don offered to do something similar with Madge, and he did so after getting a lot of money.

This and the other examples you gave don’t show a lack of obsession with money; they show Don’s cavalier relationship with responsibility, which is a different thing. From the women he goes with, the relationships he has, the family he does not – even to his very identity – Don has no regard for being responsible.

But money? Take for example season 7 when Freddie Rumson inquires about Don ghost-writing Freddie’s pitches. When Freddie asks what is going on and if Don’s been fired etc, Don’s answer is crystal clear- “They’re still paying me.”

The fact that Don throws money at people to try to solve his problems does not mean that Don is fixated on money. It means that Don has a problem understanding and relating to people on their own terms.

But those are not mutually exclusive; one idea fits snugly into the other. Don does have incredible problems relating to people on their terms; what is important to them. But part of that is because to Don … who wouldn’t be happy with $25,000.00? Or $100.00? Or Chevy? Come on, Joan; sure you slept with Herb, but if we sign Chevy we all make more money and you will feel like a “three-hundred-pound weight” has been lifted off your shoulders? Won’t that make you happy?

Roger's in it for the money (even though he was born into it). Don thinks integrity is worth more

Errr… its tough to look at Don from the first few seasons and see him as a clear man of integrity; don’t get me wrong, he actually has a lot of it. But his relationship with the truth, with his wife; his disregard for any family is not really the actions of a stand-up guy. These do not interface well with Don being a man of integrity, or at least Don is a man who’s relationship with integrity is extremely complicated.

And I agree with that quote form Don, but it does not disprove my point; most of your criticisms of Don- all valid I might add – show that Don’s relationship with authority and with responsibility are extremely suspect and wanting. I don’t begrudge anyone that.

Don is a very complicated character, especially as the seasons have worn on. And while Rodger likes being rich, he’s never fixated on money the way Don is. To Don, that money is what propels his freedom; he has money so he always has the ability to “leave it all behind.”

In this regard, and in this way, Don has always cared about money and shunned responsibility. And so long as he has his money, he has the freedom to be irresponsible. If the money went away Don would be forced to be responsible.

And stay.

[Blaine]

I woke up this morning and realized that I needed to end this series like I started. Talking to you goofballs after every episode.

So, count on me to tell how much more awesome the world of TV advertising is compared to real world of advertising, which has left me practically zero time to weigh in.

Let's do this. See you folks Monday morning.

[Relic]

<3

[Rhom]

I woke up this morning and realized that I needed to end this series like I started. Talking to you goofballs after every episode.

So, count on me to tell how much more awesome the world of TV advertising is compared to real world of advertising, which has left me practically zero time to weigh in.

Let's do this. See you folks Monday morning.

Huzzah!

ETA: And I'm sure that in true board fashion, we'll all be kicking our computers trying to get something... anything... to load the day after a new episode of GoT airs. :lol: