Heresy 107

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 107, the latest edition of the thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

For those new to the board or at least who haven’t been here before, Heresy is different from most threads in that we look beyond the assumption that all of this will be resolved by the identification of a hero variously known as Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised, and that with the aid of the friendly Children of the Forest and Dany’s Amazing Dragons, this hero will rally all Westeros, ending the Game of Thrones and saving the Seven Kingdoms from the Others. Instead, as heretics, we think that things are not quite as they seem. There are going to be some radical twists and turns and some very surprising revelations of old allegiances yet to come.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions (lots of them) and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

Currently we’re simply having a free-flow discussion while we wait for the new HBO season to open in the next few hours. As we’ve seen over the past three series this is very much a stripped down version of the story and we can expect to see more revelations of things hinted at or at least implicit in the text but made explicit in the show. We have seen one of Craster’s sons taken by the white walkers and now we await an explanation as to why Rast is laying that baby out in the snow.

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Black Crow]

Came across this one the other day. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161

Its quite old and most of its pretty straightforward, but as a heretic I was rather struck by this bit:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall.

His comments on the working of magic are also very interesting

[King of Winters]

Came across this one the other day. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=49161

Its quite old and most of its pretty straightforward, but as a heretic I was rather struck by this bit:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall.

His comments on the working of magic are also very interesting

Maybe he's playing us with the non-heretical view that the WW are the ultimate danger in the series and they will kill everyone unless they're stopped.

[Melifeather]

Thanks for the link, Black Crow. There was a lot of information in there that I found interesting. Back when I first joined this forum, I participated a fair bit in the Sansa threads, which are just as volatile as the R+L=J crowd. I remember posting how I felt Sansa's actions were partly responsible for her father's death and was attacked quite viciously. So, it's nice to read some confirmation that I had interpreted correctly:

"Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death..."

[Frey family reunion]

Before we move on from the tower of joy mystery (I'm doing my best to keep from capitalizing it), I wanted to add a few more musings:

1. In Eddard's dream he refers to it as a tower long fallen, which either refers to the fact that he pulled it down after the events with the Kingsguards, or the tower itself was a ruin when he arrived. If so, it definitely brings to mind some of the other places of significance with the First Men long since gone into ruin, like Moat Cailin, Oldstones, the Whispers, ect. And given the location of the tower, it seems that this could be one of the first structures built by the First Men's migration through Dorne and into the more fertile land of the Stormlands and the Reach.

2. I agree with Toccs that it appears that Eddard would have learned of Lyanna's location during his ending of the siege at Storm's End.

3. Given the location of the tower, it seems unlikely that the Dornish host would have passed it. I'm assuming that they would have most probably come up through the Boneway to the King's Road.

4. It seems much more likely, however, that members of Tyrell's host may have passed it as they may have gone back and forth from Highgarden bringing fresh supplies for Mace and the lads. I don't know of what happened to Nightsong and House Caron at the time, but it seems that they may have fallen earlier to Tyrell and his forces en route to Storm's End. And this would have been a logical place to stop for the night for Tyrell reinforcements.

5. When Rhaegar returns from the "south" to King's Landing, it appears to have been both after and in response to the Battle of the Bells. It also appears at the time that the only Kingsguard present at King's Landing are Barristan, Jon Darry, Lewyn, and Jaime. There is no mention from Jaime about the whereabouts of either Arthur, Gerold, or Oswell. I assume they accompanied Rhaegar on his initial trip to the "South" but did not return with him.

6. Lewyn Martell is then sent by Aerys to meet up with the Dornish host which is already on the King's Road. So either Rhaegar and the Dornish contingent were on the Kingsroad together, and Rhaegar rode on ahead to King's Landing or they just both happened to be travelling to King's Landing at the same time.

7. It would make sense that Rhaegar would have gone to Dorne to plead with his brother in law (or mother in law I don't recall if she was still in power) to get forces to take with him to King's Landing. If so apparently, Aerys may not have been convinced that the forces Rhaegar gathered were coming to aid him or to depose him which is why he sent Lewyn with the threat of Elia as hostage.

8. If that was the case, if Rhaegar passed by the tower he probably did not do it with the Dornish host, it would have been too out of their way. It does make me think that perhaps Lyanna may have been kept at Sunspear or the Water Gardens and for some reason Rhaegar may have had to move her despite the fact she may have been pretty far along in her pregnancy at that time. Perhaps the Dornes were getting cold feet about keeping her there considering the successes the rebels were having at the time.

9.So Rhaegar and his Kingsguard companions and several nurse maids I assume, decide to bring her up the Prince's Pass to hide her out in the tower (or at a place further along but Lyanna's health dictated stopping at the tower). The existence of the tower may have been known by Rhaegar due to it's proximity to Summerhall or perhaps known by Arthur. Rhaegar can't stay with her because of the developments at the Battle of Bells so he leaves her with his kingsguards and travels to King's Landing, passing the Tyrell host along the way, where perhaps mention is made of his "tower of joy".

[Melifeather]

I, for one, would like solid textural evidence that either Arthur, Gerold and Oswell were sent to fetch Rhaegar or had left with Rhaegar, because I don't believe we should take Ned's fever dream as straight forward facts.

Jaime does tell Rhaegar, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Which suggests that there were only three Kingsguard in Kings Landing when Rhaegar returned, however Jaime's memories also include Darry and Barristan leaving and riding to the Stony Sept to rally Griffin's remaining men, so Jaime is left to guard Aerys by himself.

What I'm getting at is why send three valuable men south into an area to fetch either Rhaegar or Lyanna when Dorne is your ally, and other Kingsguard are sent into areas of fighting? If you're sending Kingsguard into a safe territory, you wouldn't need to send three, especially when Aerys finally realizes that Robert is a dangerous threat. Rhaegar returned with Dornishmen to Kings Landing. Can we assume that this was his original purpose for going south? Rhaegar seems oblivious to Lyanna's whereabouts and I am beginning to wonder if that's because it was actually Aerys that kidnapped Lyanna?

Ever since the Tourney of Harrenhal, Aerys becomes suspicious of his own son. He attends the Tourney even when he's a known recluse. He observes his son laying the laurel of roses in Lyanna's lap and sees a way to discredit his son. Black Crow is right to point out that Dorne doesn't appear to be upset with Rhaegar. The initial conclusion is because Dorne doesn't see paramours as necessarily bad, but what if it's because Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna? What if Aerys just wanted people to believe that Rhaegar did it?

[Melifeather]

Another thought just occurred to me. Remember when Loras gave Sansa a flower at the Tourney to celebrate Ned as the new Hand? Loras had no romantic feelings towards Sansa at all, as he only had eyes for Renly. He barely even remembered that he did it. Sansa had to remind him. So, can we use this situation and apply it to Rhaegar? Maybe he presented the laurel to Lyanna only because they were blue roses and thought it fitting to present them to a daughter of Winterfell?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Another thought just occurred to me. Remember when Loras gave Sansa a flower at the Tourney to celebrate Ned as the new Hand? Loras had no romantic feelings towards Sansa at all, as he only had eyes for Renly. He barely even remembered that he did it. Sansa had to remind him. So, can we use this situation and apply it to Rhaegar? Maybe he presented the laurel to Lyanna only because they were blue roses and thought it fitting to present them to a daughter of Winterfell?

Especially considering that an argument could be made that Rhaegar was gay (and JonCon almost definitely was and had a thing for him)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Programming Note:

Happy Game of Thrones Day!

As you are all well aware, tonight is the premiere of Season 4 on HBO.

In an effort to provide everyone here in Heresyland a fair, spoiler-free viewing if wished, we ask that until Black Crow himself starts to reference openly the events of a particular episode, please refrain from doing so and instead post comments and analysis of the episodes inside spoiler tags.

As usual, I will post my brief synopsis of the episode after I get a chance to watch it tonight, along with a brief analysis of events that may be of Heretical importance.

Thanks all.

Happy Heresy

[Frey family reunion]

Especially considering that an argument could be made that Rhaegar was gay (and JonCon almost definitely was and had a thing for him)

Whether he was gay or not, it appears through Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, that he definitely was concerned about his progeny, especially any prophetic role that they would fulfill. It also at least appears that he may have been concerned with one more child (the dragon has three heads), and Elia may have been unable to give him a third.

[Frey family reunion]

I, for one, would like solid textural evidence that either Arthur, Gerold and Oswell were sent to fetch Rhaegar or had left with Rhaegar, because I don't believe we should take Ned's fever dream as straight forward facts.

Jaime does tell Rhaegar, "Let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Which suggests that there were only three Kingsguard in Kings Landing when Rhaegar returned, however Jaime's memories also include Darry and Barristan leaving and riding to the Stony Sept to rally Griffin's remaining men, so Jaime is left to guard Aerys by himself.

What I'm getting at is why send three valuable men south into an area to fetch either Rhaegar or Lyanna when Dorne is your ally, and other Kingsguard are sent into areas of fighting? If you're sending Kingsguard into a safe territory, you wouldn't need to send three, especially when Aerys finally realizes that Robert is a dangerous threat. Rhaegar returned with Dornishmen to Kings Landing. Can we assume that this was his original purpose for going south? Rhaegar seems oblivious to Lyanna's whereabouts and I am beginning to wonder if that's because it was actually Aerys that kidnapped Lyanna?

Ever since the Tourney of Harrenhal, Aerys becomes suspicious of his own son. He attends the Tourney even when he's a known recluse. He observes his son laying the laurel of roses in Lyanna's lap and sees a way to discredit his son. Black Crow is right to point out that Dorne doesn't appear to be upset with Rhaegar. The initial conclusion is because Dorne doesn't see paramours as necessarily bad, but what if it's because Rhaegar never kidnapped Lyanna? What if Aerys just wanted people to believe that Rhaegar did it?

My assumption comes not from Eddard's recollection, but from Jaime's (ironically also during a bout of illness). Jaime recalls in this order: Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar returning from a mission in the "south", Barristan and Darry being sent to gather up remnants of Connington's host, Lewyn being sent to meet up with the Dornish host already on the King's Road. Jaime is told by Rhaegar to stay with the King as an insurance policy, and then leaves with Darry. Jaime never mentions the whereabouts of Arthur, Oswell, or Gerold. Eddard's dream seems to imply that the Kingsguard were not present at the Battle of Bells, the Trident, or the siege of Storm's End. It makes sense that they would have left for Dorne with Rhaegar, but for some reason they did not return with Rhaegar. The only reason I can think of was he told them to stay and guard Lyanna.

[JNR]

I, for one, would like solid textural evidence that either Arthur, Gerold and Oswell were sent to fetch Rhaegar or had left with Rhaegar, because I don't believe we should take Ned's fever dream as straight forward facts.

Well, the usual interpretation is that Rhaegar had Dayne and Whent with him continually, for months, until he returned to King's Landing "from the south." Hightower is imagined to have been used as a courier to tell Rhaegar to come back.

I find it... curious that if the above is true, Hightower would have known where to look.

Aerys certainly had no idea where Rhaegar was, because Jaime tells us that Aerys wanted to make Rhaegar the Hand and couldn't, because "Prince Rhaegar could not be found."

So if Hightower knew where Rhaegar was, and also did not inform his liege of this tidbit, it's a little surprising. The same folks who interpret Hightower as the courier for Aerys also believe very firmly that Hightower was a hardcore Targ loyalist.

Black Crow is right to point out that Dorne doesn't appear to be upset with Rhaegar.

I think the Dornish may possibly have been disturbed at that time.

But a year later, when Clegane raped and murdered Elia Martell, and smashed her son Aegon's brains against a wall (maybe...), the Dornish quite forgot about Rhaegar.

Oberyn certainly has a clear idea of whom to blame in SoS. "Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die."

[Tyryan Lannister]

My assumption comes not from Eddard's recollection, but from Jaime's (ironically also during a bout of illness). Jaime recalls in this order: Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar returning from a mission in the "south", Barristan and Darry being sent to gather up remnants of Connington's host, Lewyn being sent to meet up with the Dornish host already on the King's Road. Jaime is told by Rhaegar to stay with the King as an insurance policy, and then leaves with Darry. Jaime never mentions the whereabouts of Arthur, Oswell, or Gerold. Eddard's dream seems to imply that the Kingsguard were not present at the Battle of Bells, the Trident, or the siege of Storm's End. It makes sense that they would have left for Dorne with Rhaegar, but for some reason they did not return with Rhaegar. The only reason I can think of was he told them to stay and guard Lyanna.

The biggest question that I feel needs to be answered is not why Aerys let Kingsguard go South with Rhaegar, but why he allowed 2 (or 3) to go South with him

One explanation I can think of is a variation of the line of thought posited by JNR above: Rhaegar took one of them south with him (most likely Arthur, given the fact that they were besties) and Aerys had no objection because it could easily be written off as a Prince Royal bringing a body guard with him. In the same vain (that of having a guard), Aerys sent both Gerold and Oswell southward together to give the message to Rhaegar (makes logical sense to have a second go with Gerold as help on the road if needed)

[JNR]

Whether he was gay or not, it appears through Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, that he definitely was concerned about his progeny, especially any prophetic role that they would fulfill. It also at least appears that he may have been concerned with one more child (the dragon has three heads), and Elia may have been unable to give him a third.

I wonder about that passage. Rhaegar doesn't explicitly say "I need another child," but only that bit about the dragon having three heads.

It's another link between the PtwP prophecy and a dragon, of course. I see it as more evidence the original word was dragon.

Rhaegar also corresponded with Aemon on this subject, and we now know what Aemon thought about this, before he died: that the three heads would be people who helped guide Dany.

But, of course, Dany hadn't been born back then, and Aemon couldn't have thought that then. So it's not at all clear (to me at least) what Rhaegar thought.

[Melifeather]

My assumption comes not from Eddard's recollection, but from Jaime's (ironically also during a bout of illness). Jaime recalls in this order: Battle of the Bells, Rhaegar returning from a mission in the "south", Barristan and Darry being sent to gather up remnants of Connington's host, Lewyn being sent to meet up with the Dornish host already on the King's Road. Jaime is told by Rhaegar to stay with the King as an insurance policy, and then leaves with Darry. Jaime never mentions the whereabouts of Arthur, Oswell, or Gerold. Eddard's dream seems to imply that the Kingsguard were not present at the Battle of Bells, the Trident, or the siege of Storm's End. It makes sense that they would have left for Dorne with Rhaegar, but for some reason they did not return with Rhaegar. The only reason I can think of was he told them to stay and guard Lyanna.

This is why people put way too much trust in the wiki, because the wiki presents the above as fact and it it merely an assumed theory.

Well, the usual interpretation is that Rhaegar had Dayne and Whent with him continually, for months, until he returned to King's Landing "from the south." Hightower is imagined to have been used as a courier to tell Rhaegar to come back.

I find it... curious that if the above is true, Hightower would have known where to look.

Aerys certainly had no idea where Rhaegar was, because Jaime tells us that Aerys wanted to make Rhaegar the Hand and couldn't, because "Prince Rhaegar could not be found."

So if Hightower knew where Rhaegar was, and also did not inform his liege of this tidbit, it's a little surprising. The same folks who interpret Hightower as the courier for Aerys also believe very firmly that Hightower was a hardcore Targ loyalist.

I think the Dornish may possibly have been disturbed at that time.

But a year later, when Clegane raped and murdered Elia Martell, and smashed her son Aegon's brains against a wall (maybe...), the Dornish quite forgot about Rhaegar.

Oberyn certainly has a clear idea of whom to blame in SoS. "Hello. My name is Oberyn Martell. You killed my sister. Prepare to die."

Very good point. Ser Gerold Hightower had to have been very loyal to tell Jaime that his job is to protect the king and not to judge him. If Hightower were to be included in some plot with Rhaegar involving Lyanna, he would be a hypocrite.

I really loved your Princess Bride reference! :lol:

[JNR]

One explanation I can think of is a variation of the line of thought posited by JNR above: Rhaegar took one of them south with him (most likely Arthur, given the fact that they were besties) and Aerys had no objection because it could easily be written off as a Prince Royal bringing a body guard with him.

Complicating this a bit more is that the app (so I'm told...) says that Dayne and Whent helped abduct Lyanna.

Is abduct in sarcastic R+L=J quotes? I'm told it's not.

[King Benjen II]

I never wanted to do talking dragons--perhaps I am still too much of an sf writer to be happy with creatures that are too like humans. If dragons were intelligent, they would be so in ways that we could not recognize as such. I gave some serious thought to avoiding any overt fantasy elements and doing something that would only be a fantasy in that it took place in imaginary places and avoided known historical facts. As it is, I have carefully rationed magic. I went back to The Lord of the Rings and looked at how Tolkien does it. The Lord of the Rings is set in a magical world but there is not that much magic actually on stage. For Tolkien, wizardry is knowledge, not constant spells and incantations. I wanted to keep the magic in my book subtle and keep our sense of it growing, and it stops being magical if you see too much of it. In Tolkien, Aragorn's sword is magical because it just is; not because we regularly see it helping him win fights. In these books, magic is always dangerous and difficult, and has a price and risks.

The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again, as in Vance's Dying Earth. When Vance did it, it was original--I just picked the Liane the Wayfarer section for the Fantasy Hall of Fame anthology--but I wanted to do something else. And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

[Frey family reunion]

The biggest question that I feel needs to be answered is not why Aerys let Kingsguard go South with Rhaegar, but why he allowed 2 (or 3) to go South with him

One explanation I can think of is a variation of the line of thought posited by JNR above: Rhaegar took one of them south with him (most likely Arthur, given the fact that they were besties) and Aerys had no objection because it could easily be written off as a Prince Royal bringing a body guard with him. In the same vain (that of having a guard), Aerys sent both Gerold and Oswell southward together to give the message to Rhaegar (makes logical sense to have a second go with Gerold as help on the road if needed)

I don't find that to be too much of a mystery. I would think that things are starting to look pretty desperate at the time, and the crown is in desperate need of additional troops. Speed being of the essence, Rhaegar would want to travel with few people so as not to be slowed down (and also possibly not to herald his passage). But Rhaegar would have to travel through the Stormlands which would be considered enemy territory, no matter how many Tyrells may have been present at the time. So Rhaegar travelling with three Kingsguard to keep him safe yet still allow for quick passage wouldn't seem too out of place.

Now why Rhaegar would have gone by land instead of by sea, :dunno:

[JNR]

I really loved your Princess Bride reference! :lol:

I was overwhelmingly reminded of Inigo Montoya the first time I read that scene in SoS.

I also strongly suspect GRRM saw and enjoyed that movie because many years ago, when asked to name an actor who might play Jaime, he cited Cary Elwes (who, of course, was a consummate swordsman in TPB).

[Frey family reunion]

This is why people put way too much trust in the wiki, because the wiki presents the above as fact and it it merely an assumed theory.

I'm basing all of my information on Jaime's passages not the wiki.